Joined May 2014
31,535 Posts | 3,565+
SoCal
Most outstanding leaders of the 15th century
- Thread starter Openminded
- Start date
For sure, a great king... but I don´t think he was able to do what Ferdinand the Catholic just did...
Joined Sep 2016
1,606 Posts | 759+
Georgia
He was comparing Louis to Charles VII.
Don't need to bring up Spain into every conversation.
Joined Oct 2013
24,148 Posts | 6,119+
Europix
Last edited:
I disagree.
It's the most notable more because it's legend than because if what he accomplished.
His two neighbours were way in a "higher league" : King Matthias of Hungary and King Stephen of Moldova.
Matthias was imposed as king as a result of internal quarrels between different factions, imposed as a good "puppet": he was 14 when became king.
It was a miscalculation: he wasn't a puppet. And he became if not the greatest Hungarian King, definitely one of the greatest. King of Hungary and Croatia, King of Bohemia, Duke of Austria.
Stephen of Moldova (a fugitive), manged to (re)take the throne in 1457 and remained on it until his death, in 1504.
He was reigning when OE (south) was at its European pic, Kingdom of Hungary (west) was at his pic, Poland (at North) was on it's rise, getting stronger and stronger, Crimeean Khanate (east) was still dangerous.
He managed to defeat all of them, he managed through diplomacy to "re-rise" when defeated.
In that period, in that context, reigning for 47 years, for me is one of the most extraordinary accomplishments in Europe.
Both contemporary of Vlad the impaler, I'd say that they had a diplimatic skill at a level that Vlad laked. Tis why I say they were in another league.
Joined Oct 2013
24,148 Posts | 6,119+
Europix
Now, what kind of assertion is that ?!?
Spain has to be brought up in absolutely every conversation!
_____________
Holla, martin, que tal ?
The treat is about outstanding leaders in 15th Century... i thinkg. But if you are talking about Lous and Charles.. i will copy your words and I am going to say that it is not necessary to bring up France into every conversation.... +1 dear Gvelion.
Joined May 2014
31,535 Posts | 3,565+
SoCal
Joined May 2014
31,535 Posts | 3,565+
SoCal
Yep, definitely. Reconquered the rest of Spain for Christendom and also sponsored Christopher Columbus--who discovered the New World.
Joined Sep 2016
1,606 Posts | 759+
Georgia
Futurist was asking if Louis XI was greater than Charles VII. I fail to see what that question has to do with Ferdinand. However, you for some reason said that he can't be compared with Ferdinand in response.
Joined May 2014
31,535 Posts | 3,565+
SoCal
Joined Sep 2016
1,606 Posts | 759+
Georgia
I believe that both were great, but I prefer Louis XI.Also, my question here still hasn't been answered.
Dear Gvelion. .. as our friend the Burgundian.. you are educated, intelligent, cynical, disbelieving and wildly funny ... I enjoy to read your post... Charles VII was not as Ferdinand ... but yes you were talking about other issue...not about Charles vs Ferdinand.
+1
I guess you are comparing Charles VII and Louis XI... aren´t you? If that´s your answer.. I agree with you. Louis XI surpassed Charles VII (at least also to me).. if you are comparing Louis XI and Fernando II.. so not... Louis XI didn´t surpass Fernando II.
Joined May 2014
31,535 Posts | 3,565+
SoCal
This time when a lot of stuff happened. Here's mine.
In the New World Itzcoatl founded the Aztec Empire I'd have him as the greatest ruler from that part of the world.
From England I'd have Henry V for some reasons you probably do and Henry VII cause unlike most kings his destiny was not set in stone from birth and it changed everything. Won his throne.
From France I'd pick Joan for reviving France from after defeat to victory. Louis XI for finally ending the Burgundy saga that started the last phase of the Hundred Years War. Phillip the Good for establishing Burgindian Empire necessary for Low Countries to exist. Thanks gvelion for reminding me!
From Spain, I feel Ferdinand and Isabella deserve some mentions for unifying Spain, the Columbus exhibition, the Treaty of Torsidllias etc.
From Middle East I would just have Mehmed and in Eastern Europe feel Serbia and Bulgaria were the biggest players there and their time had been in the previous century. Bayezid if he counts! Timur has always been borderline because he couldn't permanently stop the Ottomans and his impact didn't long survive his death for me.
From Germany I think Frederick III is up there for setting up the marriage between his son and Mary who will in turn set up the marriage between his son and Ferdinand and Isabella's son. These two marriages determined the course of centuries worth of history, put the Hapbsurg family on the map not just as rulers of the HRE but much of Europe. A few others who are impressive and in Hungary too but no long lasting impact. Matthias I was thinking cause he captured Vienna which is something the Ottomans in the coming centuries wouldn't succeed in doing? But yeah feel most of the military achievements in that part of the world were for naught as the Hapsburgs and Ottomans in the next century just closed down the area between them.
From Russia Ivan III for unifying it.
If I'm picking one it's Joan of Arc narrowly because her victory might have been necessary for France to continue existing. Her getting into a military position regardless of the mythology of the story required some pretty special stuff to happen. Philip the Good would be second cause same is true of him with the Low Countries
Joined May 2016
12,115 Posts | 4,890+
Portugal
One detail often forgotten is that Columbus expedition with the intent of reaching the Indies sailing west was financed by the Catholic Monarchs because they couldn’t try the path around Africa since the Treaty of Alcáçovas in 1479 was signed with Portugal.
Later, the Treaty of Tordesilhas (1494) was un update with the new public information available.
Joined Mar 2016
1,222 Posts | 906+
Australia
Would it really be that difficult to sneak three ships through? The Atlantic Ocean is a big place, I'm sure the Portuguese couldn't spot every ship sailing on it.
Joined May 2016
12,115 Posts | 4,890+
Portugal
It would be difficult to sneak three ships but far from impossible. Castilian ships and pirates sneaked often to trade with Africa, but small voyages from the Canary Islands, some with success, others were sunk or captured. And the problem would be put twice, on their way to India and on their way back. If they ever reached it. At the time the Castilians didn’t had the maritime knowledge or the power of the Portuguese in the area.
Much later, we can recall what happened to the expedition of Magalhães and Elcano and the problems that the Castilians had to return to Castile. And that was in a period where the Portuguese were much spread and not so concentrated around the trade with Mina. And also in a period that the Castilians were overlapping the Portuguese in maritime knowledge and sea power.
But the major problem would be the consequences. In the return the spoils according to the previous treaty would belong to the Portuguese and not to the Castilian, so what was the point of sending them? Even the question of America was discussed, if in fact the new lands belonged to the Portuguese or to the Castilians. When the treaty of Tordesilhas was finally agreed there was a displacement to West of the meridian that separated the findings of the two crowns:
Treaty of Tordesillas - Wikipedia
This allowed that Portugal also had a foot on America and would establish the colonies that later would become Brazil. The request of that displacement to West in 1493/4 made by the Portuguese is for many historians an indicator that the Portuguese already knew about the existence of lands in that region.
The other option would be a war. But the two crowns had just signed a peace treaty. Castile wanted to look to other places, first Granada, then North of Africa and Italy, so a new war with Portugal was not a possibility. The crowns were already tightening marriage bonds that would lead to the union of the crowns under the same king in 1580.
Joined Feb 2010
5,685 Posts | 730+
Canary Islands-Spain
And that Castile just retained the Canaries in the Atlantic fachade of Africa was the result of the outcome of the war. In the Iberian Peninsula, in spite of the Portuguese victory at Toro, the cause of Juana and Alfonso V was lost.
However, in the ocean the Portuguese navy defeated all the Castilian attempts to seize African possesions. The Portuguese navy overpowered the Castilian in every front, excepting the Canaries (and even there, the Portuguese ships roamed freely). So the Spanish were effectively pushed away from the eastern Atlantic (forever).
That's why the Catholic Monarchs supported Columbus: he offered a way to future expansion, free from the Portuguese
Joined Jan 2017
11,739 Posts | 5,015+
Sydney
Louis XI was the greatest , nicknamed the spider king for his endless web of plots
His father was carried on a wave of success , an old man trying to pass as a young buck
who cared more about his mistresses than he should have
his advisers and generals did the heavy lifting
Louis was very well informed of the affairs of Europe , had a vibrant correspondence with the great men of the renaissance
in his youth , he had commanded and army of murderous bandit companies in battle but had no taste for military glory
given the poor principality of Dauphine he made it flourish , many of his most devoted servants would come from there
weaved a rich net of alliances , destroying his enemies with subterfuge and distrusting battles
he turned the English invasion of Edward IV by buying him off , set the Swiss on Charles the rash ,
above all he loved to mingle with the common people disguised as a Burger ,
of an easy and friendly manner , his only fault was that he was sometimes too clever for his own good
having double crossed Charles the Rash , he went in his castle to sweet talk him
Charles was an angry man , this nearly cost Louis his life
he had a great devotion for Jeanne of Arc which he met when he was a child ,
she made a great impression on him , he never forgave his father for betraying her
he kept the realm at peace and the taxes low , was particularly favorable to trade
an attentive , mostly faithful husband
the great lords had been humbled ,
at his death the Kingdom had fully recovered from one hundred years of disasters and had been extended
France was once again the first kingdom in Europe
His father was carried on a wave of success , an old man trying to pass as a young buck
who cared more about his mistresses than he should have
his advisers and generals did the heavy lifting
Louis was very well informed of the affairs of Europe , had a vibrant correspondence with the great men of the renaissance
in his youth , he had commanded and army of murderous bandit companies in battle but had no taste for military glory
given the poor principality of Dauphine he made it flourish , many of his most devoted servants would come from there
weaved a rich net of alliances , destroying his enemies with subterfuge and distrusting battles
he turned the English invasion of Edward IV by buying him off , set the Swiss on Charles the rash ,
above all he loved to mingle with the common people disguised as a Burger ,
of an easy and friendly manner , his only fault was that he was sometimes too clever for his own good
having double crossed Charles the Rash , he went in his castle to sweet talk him
Charles was an angry man , this nearly cost Louis his life
he had a great devotion for Jeanne of Arc which he met when he was a child ,
she made a great impression on him , he never forgave his father for betraying her
he kept the realm at peace and the taxes low , was particularly favorable to trade
an attentive , mostly faithful husband
the great lords had been humbled ,
at his death the Kingdom had fully recovered from one hundred years of disasters and had been extended
France was once again the first kingdom in Europe
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