Opinions on Tsar Nicholas II. Do you feel much sympathy for him?

arkteia · Oct 14, 2021

Remembering Stalin, who once asked, “which of the two is worse, right deviation or left deviation”? And answered to himself, “both of them are worse”.

To a degree, it applies to tzarism vs Bolshevism. One’s policy led to the demise of a huge empire; the other later tried to restore the country’s territory as it once used to be. Neither cared about human losses.

Maki · Oct 15, 2021

robto said:
Russia was totally perceived as a dying empire, especially in the years after the Russo-Japanese war debacle. The situation was so bad to the point that France - its major strategic partner - completed discounted Russia as a factor restraining Germany, hence putting into question its usefulness as an ally and the overall perception of most European powers regarding Russia's role as a balancing power in the international arena (Wohlforth 1987).

I am now going to sound like a modern leftist demagogue but can't we blame this at least in part on racism? Europeans were simply unable to see the Asian Japanese as equals so they were shocked when Japan beat Russia. It was an upset victory of course but it was made even worse for Russia by the fact the Japanese were another race. So clearly Russia must be dying because the Asians beat them. When in fact that same Japan would go on to inflict humiliating defeats on the great Western powers as well and would indirectly mark the end of European colonialism in East Asia.
But since this is about Nicholas II, he opposed the war with Japan. In fact he was egged on by Kaiser Wilhelm to enter it.

robto said:
It was later on, especially in the years closer to the beginning of WWI, Germany, and the world to a lesser extent started to take notice of Russia's attempt to get back on its feet.
Nonetheless, during the first decade of the 20th century, most of the advanced countries saw the situation in Russia as one of impending doom (particularly in the aftermath of the 1905 Russian Revolution), which was mostly blamed as a consequence of the backwardness, "oriental-like" and "imperfectly civilized" nature of the Russian Empire - which was a common perception of Russia in Europe since the Napoleonic wars (Zaraköl 2010, pp.201-39).

"Advanced" countries. Why is Western xenophobia towards Orthodox Slavs seen as a legitimate argument?

robto said:
I very much disagree with the first part, and I think it's way more preferable to have a paranoid Stalin having a catastrophic defeat in the first year of the war only rather than an ineffective and weak Tsar losing the entire war altogether.

There would have been no Operation Barbarossa without the Bolshevik Revolution. Much of Hitler's rhetoric centered around combating the spread of Communism. Without a Communist Russia there would be no Nazi Germany thus no Barbarossa.

arkteia · Oct 15, 2021

robto said:
It was a dying Great Power from the mid 19th century onwards. It was perceived as a backward and disappearing Empire by most advanced nations at the time, and the stalemate with Japan during the Russo-Japanese war in 1905 just made it in eyes of the world as a "sick man" as the Ottomans were. Of course, the Russian Empire was always a Great Power, but it never reached a superpower status and neither was one of the largest industrial centers of the world as the USSR was.

The USSR was the peak of Russian power and influence in its entire history. No questions about it.

The modernization of the Russian Empire was incredibly slow, reluctant, and ineffective. I don't think Russia would be able to survive the Wehrmacht onslaught of Operation Barbarossa if Tzar Nicholas II, or his son, were leading Russia.

I don't know why and how, but the image of Russia of 1913, being rich and prosperous, has been as popular as Bolshevik's definition of Russia being the "prison of the peoples".

In fact, flipping through descriptions of peasant markets in the governorship where my great-great-grandfather used to live, not once did I come across the phrase, "peasants markets here are poor". I leave it up to those participating in the discussion to understand why markets in a blacksoil area need to be poor.

As to Bolsheviks, some of their plans were progressive. Total literacy, electrification. But collectivization was serfdom, Season Two.

P.S. This being said, I believe that Russia was not a dying country, and it got a chance with the February Revolution, but sadly, nothing materialized.

Maki · Oct 16, 2021

Literacy was increasing under the reign of Nicholas II.
Literacy among servicemen in the imperial military rose from 24,5% in 1883 to 67,8% in 1913. The most significant growth of literacy in Moscow happened from 1897 and 1920, vast majority of that period belonging to the tsarist era. In the 1890s the imperial government launched literacy campaigns. Enrollment in rural schools increased 4 times from 1885 to 1914. (C. E. Clark, Uprooting Otherness: The Literacy Campaign in NEP-Era Russia).
The increase of primary schools in the Russian Empire was evident, from 25,000 in 1879 to 100,749 in 1911. The number of pupils also rapidly increased. Nearly 8 million in 1915. Nicholas Timasheff that the following regarding literacy: "in 1914 a climax was reached, to be followed by a period of decline and to be surpassed only in the late twenties". (B. Eklof, Russian Literacy Campaigns, 1861-1939).

Maki · Oct 17, 2021

Regarding electrification steps were also being taken. In 1913 the value of electrical articles and materials produced in Imperial Russia amounted to 46,124,000 rubles. In fact the Soviet electric program for 1922, two years after the formation of the GOELRO constituted only 61% of what was produced in 1913 during the tsarist era. The big drawback of Imperial Russian electric industry was an immense reliance on foreign capital, above all by German capital which obviously stopped coming during the war.
Source is: Condition of Industries in Soviet Russia, Trade Information Bulletin no. 55, Supplement to Commerce Reports, Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce, US Department of Commerce, 1922, pg. 12-13.

arkteia · Oct 17, 2021

Maki said:
Regarding electrification steps were also being taken. In 1913 the value of electrical articles and materials produced in Imperial Russia amounted to 46,124,000 rubles. In fact the Soviet electric program for 1922, two years after the formation of the GOELRO constituted only 61% of what was produced in 1913 during the tsarist era. The big drawback of Imperial Russian electric industry was an immense reliance on foreign capital, above all by German capital which obviously stopped coming during the war.
Source is: Condition of Industries in Soviet Russia, Trade Information Bulletin no. 55, Supplement to Commerce Reports, Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce, US Department of Commerce, 1922, pg. 12-13.

OK, you know one funny fact? For years, I was searching for a Russian alexandrite, a real one. I was told, oh, they were all mined out during the tzarist times, you have to check Sotheby’s. Then I ended up in Moscow Museum of Mineralogy and saw an old one… heck, the same, it is not “red by the evening”, it is “dirty purple”

OK, the explanation is super simple. The incandescent light in tzarist time was provided by candles is very warm and incomparable with even regular incandescent lamp. So even at balls and huge events, these candlelights turned the stones red.

(I finally got one stone, and it is still nothing, but I have a photo of it in candlelight).

So they didn’t even have enough electricity for the gentry balls…

Maki · Oct 19, 2021

I found out Murmansk Airport is named after Nicholas II. Good path for Russia.

At Each Kilometer · Oct 19, 2021

Maki said:
I found out Murmansk Airport is named after Nicholas II. Good path for Russia.

It makes sense. Murmansk was the last city founded in the Russian Empire and was named Romanov na Murmane when founded in 1916 by Nicholas II himself. The city was given its present name after the October Revolution. So the airport in question is no longer Murmashi, but Nikolai II Murmansk International Airport. The authorities there should paint all its buildings in red, the favorite colour of Nicholas the Bloody. His paternal grandfather was a great emperor, his father was a good emperor, Nicholas II was neither great nor good.

Maki · Oct 20, 2021

Nicholas II was not "the Bloody". That's just a nickname his opponents gave to him.

Jean Paul · Oct 20, 2021

robto said:
It was a dying Great Power from the mid 19th century onwards. It was perceived as a backward and disappearing Empire by most advanced nations at the time, and the stalemate with Japan during the Russo-Japanese war in 1905 just made it in eyes of the world as a "sick man" as the Ottomans were. Of course, the Russian Empire was always a Great Power, but it never reached a superpower status and neither was one of the largest industrial centers of the world as the USSR was.

The USSR was the peak of Russian power and influence in its entire history. No questions about it.

The modernization of the Russian Empire was incredibly slow, reluctant, and ineffective. I don't think Russia would be able to survive the Wehrmacht onslaught of Operation Barbarossa if Tzar Nicholas II, or his son, were leading Russia.

Indeed, he once confessed to a close friend, ''Im not prepared to be a tsar. I never wanted to become one. I know nothing of the business of ruling.''

Maki · Oct 20, 2021

Red Tide Retreating

In the past few days, VCIOM released the results of a large opinion poll about Russian attitudes towards the Revolution, the Civil War, and various historical figures. The results largely speak for themselves, but to identify the most important elements: 1. Soviet attitudes are dying out. While...

www.unz.com

.

At Each Kilometer · Oct 20, 2021

Maki said:
Red Tide Retreating

In the past few days, VCIOM released the results of a large opinion poll about Russian attitudes towards the Revolution, the Civil War, and various historical figures. The results largely speak for themselves, but to identify the most important elements: 1. Soviet attitudes are dying out. While...

www.unz.com

.

2. Rehabilitation of the Whites, in particular Nicholas II (who is now viewed more sympathetically than either Lenin or Stalin), and of Kolchak though not so much Denikin (perhaps thanks to this film about The Admiral).
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Comment 8.
Nicholas II is not”white.” “White” – those who fought with the Bolsheviks. Nicholas II with his disgusting wife and Rasputin was the de facto best friend of the Bolsheviks.

arkteia · Oct 21, 2021

At Each Kilometer said:
It makes sense. Murmansk was the last city founded in the Russian Empire and was named Romanov na Murmane when founded in 1916 by Nicholas II himself. The city was given its present name after the October Revolution. So the airport in question is no longer Murmashi, but Nikolai II Murmansk International Airport. The authorities there should paint all its buildings in red, the favorite colour of Nicholas the Bloody. His paternal grandfather was a great emperor, his father was a good emperor, Nicholas II was neither great nor good.

I always think what would have happened if Alaska were not sold to the US. One of my scenarios is not unlike Vasily Aksyonov’s book “the Island of Crimea”, but on Yukon. The White Guard assembles in Alaska, the USA and Canada, of course, don’t allow Bolshevism even close to their borders, and there are two Russias. It would have been an interesting scenario for the world.

As to Murmansk… I honestly welcome old Russian towns and streets being returned their pre-revolutionary names, but naming new places after tzars?

OK, here is a good example. In Prague, there is a subway station named Pavlová. I thought it was named after Anna Pavlova, but of course, the Czechs are smarter. It was named after Ivan Petrovich Pavlov, the great Russian physiologists.

Russia has produced enough scientists, poets and artists to name places after them. I’d rather see something named after Nikolay Gumilyov, the famed Russian poet, than after Nicholas II, a failed politician.

arkteia · Oct 21, 2021

Jean Paul said:
Indeed, he once confessed to a close friend, ''Im not prepared to be a tsar. I never wanted to become one. I know nothing of the business of ruling.''

He was born on the day of Job, the saint, and he always remembered it. Sometimes he compared himself with “Job the much-suffering”.

Maki · Oct 21, 2021

arkteia said:
As to Murmansk… I honestly welcome old Russian towns and streets being returned their pre-revolutionary names, but naming new places after tzars

Many places were not returned their old names. Volgograd did not go back to Tsaritsyin. Kaliningrad should be changed as well. It does not make any sense, Mikhail Kalinin never stepped a foot inside it. Either call it something like Konigsberg or I guess Кёнигсберг or if the name must reflect victory over Germany call it Nevsky, after Prince Alexander Nevsky who beat back German Teutonic Knights.

Menshevik · Oct 21, 2021

At Each Kilometer · Oct 21, 2021

There are several Aleksandrovsk in Russian Federation of today.

Aleksandrovsk in Perm Krai / Territory and Aleksandrovsk in Irkutsk region were not named after Romanov. The former was founded in the very beginning of XIXth century as a settlement near a metallurgical plant, named after the owner's son. The latter was named after the surname of the land surveyor Aleksandrov, who was instructed to measure the land plots at the resettlement site.

Alexandrovskoe village in Stavropol Territory deserves a special mention, it was named after Alexander Nevski fortress nearby. The Cossack military settlement was established in late XVIII century, the fortress itself was a part of the fortification defensive line built by order of Potemkin against the Ottomans in the North Caucasus.

The old name of Polyarny, a city in the Murmansk region of Russia was Aleksandrovsk na Murmane, the settlement was given city status during the reign of Nicholas II, named after his father Aleksandr III.

Aleksandrovsk-Sakhalinsky is a city since 1917 as its name implies in Sakhalin and was named after Nicholas II paternal grandfather - Aleksandr II. EDIT: Why the Bolsheviks didnt rename it to something more suitable for the proletarian state i dont know.
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There is a settlement of Nikolaevsk in Alaska, established half a century after the murder of the Russian Imperial family (not named after Nicholas II!) by a group of Old Believers, wiki claims that they speak an archaic Russian, which is kinda amazing, considering that their ancestors were the very first Russian emigrants, keeping the language alive generation after generation.

arkteia · Oct 21, 2021

At Each Kilometer said:
2. Rehabilitation of the Whites, in particular Nicholas II (who is now viewed more sympathetically than either Lenin or Stalin), and of Kolchak though not so much Denikin (perhaps thanks to this film about The Admiral).
---
Comment 8.
Nicholas II is not”white.” “White” – those who fought with the Bolsheviks. Nicholas II with his disgusting wife and Rasputin was the de facto best friend of the Bolsheviks.

Well, the old generation, raised in the socialist time, when any entrepreneurial activity was rapidly weeded out, of course, can not adjust to the fall of socialism. Interestingly, these could be the same people who in 1991 did not support the August coup. But now, they might adept the attitude, “in Soviet time, the ice cream was better”.

If it is not leftist, it will be rightist, the historic pendulum tends to swing, so I can imagine how young people might accept nationalistic beliefs.

However, a lot depends on the media. It is interesting, that both “Admiral”, the movie about Kolchak, and TV series “Trotsky” starred the same artist and gained wide audience.

Maki said:
Many places were not returned their old names. Volgograd did not go back to Tsaritsyin. Kaliningrad should be changed as well. It does not make any sense, Mikhail Kalinin never stepped a foot inside it. Either call it something like Konigsberg or I guess Кёнигсберг or if the name must reflect victory over Germany call it Nevsky, after Prince Alexander Nevsky who beat back German Teutonic Knights.

With Königsberg-Kalinin, I think, everyone is stuck. But it can be renamed into Kantovgrad, after Immanuel Kant, the philosopher definitely deserved some recognition, or simply, Karolingrad.

Maki · Oct 22, 2021

arkteia said:
However, a lot depends on the media. It is interesting, that both “Admiral”, the movie about Kolchak, and TV series “Trotsky” starred the same artist and gained wide audience.

I guess because the goal is eventual reconciliation between the two sides. In the Admiral there is a scene where a soldier asks Kolchak after battle whether they should bury the White and the Red dead together and Kolchak says something like "yes, God made them the same". Similar to how Chiang Kai-Shek is now presented more positively in the PRC than on Taiwan. A misguided effort but still deserving of respect.

At Each Kilometer · Oct 22, 2021

arkteia said:
Well, the old generation, raised in the socialist time, when any entrepreneurial activity was rapidly weeded out, of course, can not adjust to the fall of socialism. Interestingly, these could be the same people who in 1991 did not support the August coup. But now, they might adept the attitude, “in Soviet time, the ice cream was better”.

If it is not leftist, it will be rightist, the historic pendulum tends to swing, so I can imagine how young people might accept nationalistic beliefs.

However, a lot depends on the media. It is interesting, that both “Admiral”, the movie about Kolchak, and TV series “Trotsky” starred the same artist and gained wide audience.

The point is that in the article Nicholas II is 'classified' as White, hence the comment that the tzar in question did not belong to the White movement, he was the (former) monarch. These names of White generals beneath the royal name, Kolchak and Denikin, in the days of the All Russian Constituent Assembly they simply waited MPs to decide what kind of government Russia wants, the largest party in the Assembly was the socialist revolutionaries and they were anti-monarchists, so the fate of the tzarism was sealed. After October Revolution they didnt fight to restore monarchy either / of the others Yudenich was openly a republican and of the famous White leaders only Wrangel was a staunch monarchist, the tzarism was pretty much dead with the February Revolution. The civil war is vastly overshadowed by the devastating Great Patriotic War, a cataclysmic event of cosmic proportions. Give the Russian public opinion another hundred years panta rei i wonder what the future generations will think about WW2 if we are still around as a specie.

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Opinions on Tsar Nicholas II. Do you feel much sympathy for him?

arkteia

Maki

arkteia

Maki

Maki

arkteia

Maki

At Each Kilometer

Maki

Jean Paul

Maki

Red Tide Retreating

At Each Kilometer

Red Tide Retreating

arkteia

arkteia

Maki

Menshevik

At Each Kilometer

arkteia

Maki

At Each Kilometer

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