Pre Constantine Christians

Nykyus · Nov 29, 2021

Essays on the history of Christian civilizations: in two volumes Alib.ru - Название книги: очерки истории христианских цивилизаций.
Volume 1: From Inception to the Arab
Conquests: in two books
Among the thirty authors of this volume are followers of different religions: Christians, Muslims, Judaists, deists as well as atheists. We are free from fanaticism racism, ethnic intolerance and arrogance. We experience the absolute (no sly reservations) respect for all positive (non-savage) religions and worldview systems, in principle avoid controversy in the religious field (but not in
his professional field of historical-anthropological and philological sciences and in philosophy).
Our tolerance is reflected in the terminology: some the authors designate the dates "Before the Birth of Christ" and "After the Birth of Christ" (like this accepted in most of the world), others, following Soviet tradition, - "BC" and "AD". Are available in they seem to be the same dates, and everyone understands that.
All authors as professors and associate professors teach (or taught in the recent past) at universities and other higher educational institutions in Moscow, St. Petersburg, Veliky Novgorod, Kiev, Kharkov, Simferopol, Nalchik, Baku, Tbilisi, as well as at universities in foreign countries. Everywhere we are faced the problem of lack of detailed and interestingly written, modern in terms of knowledge books on the history of the Christian world as a dynamic whole, in its spiritual unity and cultural diversity. We took the liberty of writing a multivolume study on this topic. Our favorites readers are students, graduate students and young scientists.
Our task is to give readers a system of scientific knowledge, including new ideas. New not for authors, but for those who studied under the rule of Leninist-Stalinist historical mathematics, legalized falsification of the world history, an ignorantly arrogant, and even maliciously hostile attitude towards great religions. 85% books were written by doctors of historical sciences, the rest - by candidates working on doctoral dissertations. This explains our attitude towards militant amateurism and profanation of science, no matter how lofty words they hide behind.
Article I. Essays on the history of Christian civilizations: in two volumes. Volume 1: From Inception to
Arab Conquests: In Two Books. Book 1. Parts 1-3
Resp. ed. V.V. Naumkin, hands. project, scientific. or T. ed. Yu.M. Kobishanov.
Book. 1: Ch. 1-3. Moscow: Political Encyclopedia, 2019 - 671 p.
ISBN 978-5-8243-2303-0
Article II. Essays on the history of Christian civilizations: in two volumes. Volume 1: From Inception to
Arab Conquests: In Two Books. Book 1. Parts 1-3 - Contents
From the authors
Book one
Introduction (Yuri M. Kobishanov, Moscow)
Part 1. States and religions of the world on the eve and at the beginning of the spread of Christianity and before
spread of Islam
• The system of states and civilizations of the I millennium BC - the first quarter of the IV century BC before the Birth of Christ"(Yuri M.
Kobishanov, Moscow)
o Birth of Middle East politics
o Ways of shaping world politics
o World empire from the first Achaemenids to the Diadochs
o Hellenistic system of states
Big four empires
o Age of the Severs. Decline of empires at the end of II - III centuries. and the beginning of the great migration of peoples
o Late Roman Empire from Diocletian to Theodosius I (284-395)
o The last century of Roman civilization (395-474 or 491)
o The system of states and civilizations of the VI-VIII centuries; three centuries - five periods
o Migration of the peoples of Asia and Europe in the VI-VIII centuries
o Civilization of the Christian world in the VI-first half of the VIII century. Regions of Dyophysitism, Monophysitism,
Nestorianism, Arianism, Paulikianism. The emergence of Monothelism and Iconoclasm
o Religions and politics
o From disintegration to the formation of a medieval system of states and civilizations
o Revival of the Roman and Sassanian Empires and the War for the Christian East
o Unification of the Roman Mediterranean under the rule of Constantinople. Conquest of North Africa
o Conquest of Italy, Dalmatia, Betica
o World political system of the middle - end of the VI century
o Byzantine-Persian Wars 604-630
o The birth of the Islamic state and the message of the Prophet Muhammad
o Arab conquests and the birth of the Arab Caliphate
Part 2. The spread of Christianity in the Roman provinces and kingdoms-limitrophes
• Spain (Julius B. Tsirkin, St. Petersburg)
o Historical introduction
o Religious situation in the Spanish provinces of the Roman Empire
o The beginning of the spread of Christianity
o Christianity in late Roman Spain. Heresies
o Barbarian invasions and their implications for the religious development of Spain
• Gaul in Late Antiquity: Features of Christianization (Dmitry N. Starostin, St. Petersburg)
o Frankish kingdom under the Merovingians and early Carolingians.Features of the development of historical
worldview
• Roman Britain (Dmitry N. Starostin, St. Petersburg)
• Celtic and Roman polytheism, syncretism and Christianity in Britain in the II-V centuries AD (Dmitry N.
Starostin, St. Petersburg, Nina Y. Zhivlova, Moscow)
• Ireland in the V-VIII centuries. (Nina Y. Zhivlova, Moscow)
o Christianization of Ireland in the V century: Palladium and Patrick
o The period of the first missionaries. Synods, toponymy and linguistic data
o First rank
o Second order: the flourishing of monasteries
o Third Order: Easter Controversies
o Church in Irish society of the V-VIII centuries
o The rights of clerics in secular legal documents
• North Africa (Elena V. Sergeeva, Veliky Novgorod)
o Proconsular Africa
o Spread of Christianity in North Africa
o Martyrdom Tradition in North Africa. "Acts" of the Scythian Martyrs
o Martyrdom of Sts. Perpetua and Felicity
o Persecution of Decius
o "Great Persecution"
o Tertullian
• Crimean peninsula. Early Christianity in Tavrika (Sergei B. Sorochan and Mikhail V. Fomin, Kharkov)
o Religious thought in the Bosporus and Chersonesos in the I-III centuries
• The emergence and spread of Christianity
o Legendary stage. Apostles and their disciples
o Evidence of the presence of Christians in the II-III centuries
o Stage two: "Gothic" hikes
o Victory of Christianity in the IV century: Synod of Nicaea and bishops of Kherson. Ethnic composition of the early
Christian community of Chersonesos
• Crimean Gothia in the III-VIII centuries. (Yuri M. Mogarichev, Simferopol)
• Taman Peninsula (Julia L. Shchapova, Emilia Y. Nikolaeva, Anna V. Lyadova, Moscow)
Part 3. Early Christian East
• Adyghe peoples and the Zikh diocese (Vladimir A. Fomenko, Nalchik)
• Georgia in the I-VIII centuries. (Lyubov T. Solovieva, Moscow)
• Eastern Georgia - Kingdom of Kartli I-V centuries
o Western Georgia - Egrisi (Lazika) in the IV-V centuries
o Pagan beliefs
o Baptism of Georgia
o Christianity in Western Georgia
o Development of the Georgian Church
o Georgia in the VI - first third of the VII century
o Caucasian Albania in the I-VII centuries (Farida J. Mamedova, Baku)
• Christianity in Dagestan I-VIII centuries. (Patimat Takhnaeva, Moscow)
• Armenia in the I century BC - VII century. (Timur K. Koraev, Moscow)
o Armenia to Tigran II the Great
o Armenian Kingdom between Iran and Rome
o Christian Armenia
o Armenia at the end of the V - the first half of the VII century
o The Golden Age of Armenian Literature. Political decline and cultural upsurge
o Material culture of Christian Armenia
• Syria and Mesopotamia in the II - first half of the VII century. (Alexey V. Muravyov, Moscow)
o Development of school education
o Rise of Syrian Civilization
• Arabia in the III - first third of the VII century. (Yuri M. Kobishanov, Moscow)
• North-East Africa (Yuri M. Kobishanov, Moscow)
• Aksumite kingdom in I - early IV century. (Yuri M. Kobishanov, Moscow)
• Ezana's Board. St. Frumentius and the beginning of the Christian Aksumite civilization (Yuri M. Kobishchanov,
Moscow)
• Aksumite kingdom at the end of IV - V century. (Yuri M. Kobishanov, Moscow)
• The states of Nubia and the kingdom of Beja in the V-VII centuries. (Yuri M-Kobishanov, Moscow)
• Christian civilizations of Arabia and North-East Africa in the VI - first third of the VII century
• Egypt in the VI - early VII century. Anti-Byzantine uprisings (Yu.M. Kobishanov, Moscow)
• Aksumite kingdom in the VI century.Axum - the center of southern Christian civilization (Yu.M. Kobishanov, Moscow)
• Christianization of Lower Nubia (Yu.M. Kobishchanov, Moscow)
• Christianization of Middle and Upper Nubia (Yu.M. Kobishchanov, Moscow)
• Monuments of Christianity in Nubia (Nejud Hasan Bashir, Moscow and Khartoum)
• Decline of the Ethiopian dynasty in Himyar. Yemen, al-Hira, Syria and Egypt are Sassanian provinces (Yu.M.
Kobishanov, Moscow)
• Aksum and its connections with Arabia in the first half of the VII century. (Yu.M. Kobishanov, Moscow)
• The first battles of Muslims with Nubians and Aksumites. Agreement of 652 (Yu.M. Kobishanov, Moscow)
• Aksumite kingdom in the second third of the VII - VIII centuries. (Yu.M. Kobishanov, Moscow)
• Christian Socotra (Yu.M. Kobishanov, Moscow)
• Christianity in Tang China (Alexey V. Muravyov, Moscow)
Article III. Essays on the history of Christian civilizations: in two volumes. Volume 1: From Inception to Arab Conquests: In Two Books. Book 1. Parts 1-3 - Introduction
Contrary to popular belief, a single Christian civilization such as the Islamic one has never existed. By a single civilization we mean the cultural community of ethno-social organisms, characterized by a fairly high level of socio-economic and cultural development (the presence of a common metaculture and an increased density of information links) 1. Already in the IV-V centuries. grafting early Christianity into Roman civilization and ancient civilizations outside of Roman world and the subsequent cultural synthesis turned them into a number of Christian civilizations. Some of them have survived to this day (Armenian, Georgian, Aksumite, or Ethiopian, Christian civilization of Kerala and west of Maharashtra), others disappeared or developed into new civilizations (Islamic civilization, Western civilization, etc.).
Long before the birth of a new Western civilization in modern times, Christian civilizations were already distributed throughout all regions of the Earth. In modern times, there was further the spread of Christian civilizations (mainly Western, but also Russian in the Volga region and Siberia, Aksumite, or Ethiopian Christian, on the Ethiopian Highlands). Grafting Western Christianity (Catholicism and Protestantism) to the root of non-European civilizations and proto-civilizations led to the formation of new civilizational regions.So it was in Indian America in the pre-Columbian regions the civilizations of Mesoamerica and Peru, as well as the proto-civilizations of the Guaraní and other peoples, in the Asia-Pacific space (in the Philippines and Molluks, in Oceania, among the mountain peoples of Indochina), in Tropical Africa (in the Guinea belt and the Bantu belt). Locally Christian civilizations were located interlaced and in systemic connection with other civilizations, for example, with Islamic, Hindu, Chinese, related Vietnamese, etc.
All countries of South and East Asia had their own periods of mass spread of Christianity (in India and Sri Lanka - at least three periods starting from the III-V centuries, in China - also at least three starting from the VIII century, in Japan - two periods from the XVI century. etc.). But on the eastern edge of Southeast Asia, there is only one a large country - the Philippines - has become the center of another Christian civilization, to which gravitate and Christian ethno-confessional groups of Eastern Indonesia, Mariana Islands, etc.
This review suggests that there is not only a single Christian civilization (like unified Islamic), but also a unified Catholic civilization, a unified Orthodox civilization, etc. in Europe, Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox Christians belong to the same civilization, at the same time the countries of Mesoamerica, the Andean countries, Paraguay is a different cultural world, the Philippines is the third, the countries The Gulf of Guinea and the Bantu belt of Africa are the fourth. They differ, in particular, in folk Christianity. Orthodox Romania and Orthodox Georgia are also two different civilizations. Orthodox Chuvash and Yakuts do not belong to one or the other, although the languages of both peoples are Turkic, and their ancestors came to the lands of the Chuvash settlement (three republics of the Russian Federation and Simbirsk region) and to Yakutia from the Asian steppe. The difference between the civilizations of countries where Jacobite Christianity is widespread - Armenia, Ethiopia, Kerala in the south of India, Coptic Egypt, Syria; in the latter two and in other Arab countries, Arabic-speaking Jacobites, Orthodox, Eastern Catholics of various churches, as well as the Nestorians-Assyrians who have preserved the Syrian language, belong to now, in essence, to a common civilization for them, but to different ethno-confessional groups.
Fundamental differences existed even in the era of the genesis of the first Christian civilizations. They developed after the Christian world of the first third of the VII - first half of the VIII century. was torn to part of the Arab Caliphate, which rapidly emerged in the very center of the ancient belt of civilizations.Islamic civilization took a central place in the system of medieval states and civilizations, so that communications between them could be carried out mainly through the lands subordinate to Muslims. The dominance of the great Islamic empires of later eras (including five of the six Mongol empires whose rulers converted to Islam) contributed to the continuation of the process of isolation of a number of Christian civilizations from Europe. Then the division of Christian civilizations into Byzantine-Roman, or European, and Eastern Christian civilizations, now developing in associations with Islamic civilization. Eastern churches were cared for by patriarchs who were in the subordination of Muslim rulers, in the territories of Christian civilizations, Muslim rulers encouraged the conversion of Christians to Islam, and where non-Muslims ruled (in the Christian part Ethiopia, Kerala, etc.), the missionaries of Islam preached.
Christian missionaries, including Eastern Christian missionaries, competed with Muslims - in the northeast Caucasus, in the lands of the Alans, in the Khazar Kaganate, Central Asia, and China. The most important there was a conversion to Christianity of the Germanic and Slavic peoples. During the era of Charlemagne, a prominent role in it was played by the educated Irish. In turn, the baptized Germans and Slavs spread Christianity among the Baltic, Finno-Ugric and other northern peoples. Christian civilizations appeared after the birth of the Church and conversion to Christianity a significant part of the population (especially urban) of civilized countries. This was often accompanied by the adoption of Christianity by the rulers of states. Thus, the spread of Christianity in I-VII centuries in the Roman Empire and in neighboring countries (as well as in the countries of the southern seas - on the Tigrai plateau in present Eritrea and Ethiopia, in the south of the Arabian Peninsula, Socotra, India and Sri Lanka) was a long process preceding the emergence of Christian civilizations here. This process continued in the VIII century. and later.

abram · Nov 29, 2021

Jax said:
Na. Let's just face reality. Palestine is simply not the origin of Christianity.

The map makes that clear.

Right. Maps never lie.(Divinely inspired!)
As explained, the Palestinian phase of Christianity was first century--although there were Ebionites in Pella and elsewhere in the Levent who were still causing trouble for "Paulist" Christians.

Jax · Nov 29, 2021

abram said:
Right. Maps never lie.(Divinely inspired!)
As explained, the Palestinian phase of Christianity was first century--although there were Ebionites in Pella and elsewhere in the Levent who were still causing trouble for "Paulist" Christians.

Jewish populations in Mesopotamia were huge. If Christianity was a product of Palestine one would expect that it would have shown up there fairly early especially as it would have been a refuge during the Jewish/Roman wars. We do not see that however. What we do see is Christianity concentrated in the Aegean sea area and Antioch in Syria and the city of Rome, All areas of high Greek and Roman concentration.

Even Alexandria by Egypt seems to be late in getting Christianity with Arabia and Mesopotamia much later (after fourth century). This goes against common sense if one postulates a Palestinian origin for Christianity.

If we posit an origin of Christianity in the Areas of Greece and Asia Minor however, then the spread, direction and time wise that we observe, makes much more sense.

abram · Nov 29, 2021

Nykyus said:
Essays on the history of Christian civilizations: in two volumes Alib.ru - Название книги: очерки истории христианских цивилизаций.
Volume 1: From Inception to the Arab

Thanks. A Russian source? Too bad I can't read Russian, since the article titles seem fascinating. Do they answer my question about Clement in Alexandria and Ignatius in Antioch? In Alexandria in the second century CE ? I certainly wouldn't dispute that many versions of Christianity were in play in the second century. To call any "orthodox" at this point would be retrospective labeling, but on that basis, we can speak of "proto-orthodox" or Paulist communities.

Jax said:

Jewish populations in Mesopotamia were huge. If Christianity was a product of Palestine one would expect that it would have shown up there fairly early especially as it would have been a refuge during the Jewish/Roman wars. We do not see that however. What we do see is Christianity concentrated in the Aegean sea area and Antioch in Syria and the city of Rome, All areas of high Greek and Roman concentration.

Even Alexandria by Egypt seems to be late in getting Christianity with Arabia and Mesopotamia much later (after fourth century). This goes against common sense if one postulates a Palestinian origin for Christianity.

If we posit an origin of Christianity in the Areas of Greece and Asia Minor however, then the spread, direction and time wise that we observe, makes much more sense.

Click to expand...

Christianity didn't make great inroads among Jews even in Palestine. It tool Paul's version, with a resurrected Godman, vicarious atonement and no circumcision or kosher to give Christianity a shot in the arm. It soon became a predominantly Gentile religion. The Ebionites seem to be what Paul called the "circumcision faction" --insisting on full compliance with the Law of Moses before becoming a Christian, vegetarianism, and an adoptionist view of Jesus' relationship to Yahweh--not exactly big draws for Gentiles. Many scholars agree that Gnosticism, which proliferated during the second century, had Jewish roots. Albrile (2005) Macmillan Encyclopedia of Religion p. 3533; Cohen and Mendes-Flohr (2010), p.286; Magris (2005) Macmillan Encyclopedia of Religion 3515-16. In second century Alexandria, Basilides, Valentinus, Carpocrates certainly took Christianity in a more Gnostic direction, but Clement seems to have been in the proto-orthodox camp. In Antioch, proto-orthodox Christianity did face an uphill battle against Marcionite and Gnostic competition and was probably a minority position in the second century. The Romans took out Ignatius early on. But I think it would still be more accurate to color the city purple rather than blue.

abram · Nov 29, 2021

Jax said:
Jewish populations in Mesopotamia were huge. If Christianity was a product of Palestine one would expect that it would have shown up there fairly early especially as it would have been a refuge during the Jewish/Roman wars. We do not see that however. What we do see is Christianity concentrated in the Aegean sea area and Antioch in Syria and the city of Rome, All areas of high Greek and Roman concentration.

Even Alexandria by Egypt seems to be late in getting Christianity with Arabia and Mesopotamia much later (after fourth century). This goes against common sense if one postulates a Palestinian origin for Christianity.

If we posit an origin of Christianity in the Areas of Greece and Asia Minor however, then the spread, direction and time wise that we observe, makes much more sense.

Not necessarily. Jewish Christianity never did make major inroads among the Jews of Palestine, since they worshipped a man who was crucified and therefore "cursed" according to Deuteronomy.. It was Paul's "new and improved" version (vicarious atonement, no kosher, no circumcision, salvation by faith) that gave Christianity its shot in the arm among Gentiles, who soon became the dominant element. I wouldn't expect the Ebionites to do much better among Jewish or Gentile communities outside of Palestine. But they do seem to have held on at least until the 7th century. Pines (1966) The Jewish Christians.

Jax · Nov 29, 2021

abram said:
Christianity didn't make great inroads among Jews even in Palestine. It tool Paul's version, with a resurrected Godman, vicarious atonement and no circumcision or kosher to give Christianity a shot in the arm. It soon became a predominantly Gentile religion. The Ebionites seem to be what Paul called the "circumcision faction" --insisting on full compliance with the Law of Moses before becoming a Christian, vegetarianism, and an adoptionist view of Jesus' relationship to Yahweh--not exactly big draws for Gentiles. Many scholars agree that Gnosticism, which proliferated during the second century, had Jewish roots. Albrile (2005) Macmillan Encyclopedia of Religion p. 3533; Cohen and Mendes-Flohr (2010), p.286; Magris (2005) Macmillan Encyclopedia of Religion 3515-16. In second century Alexandria, Basilides, Valentinus, Carpocrates certainly took Christianity in a more Gnostic direction, but Clement seems to have been in the proto-orthodox camp. In Antioch, proto-orthodox Christianity did face an uphill battle against Marcionite and Gnostic competition and was probably a minority position in the second century. The Romans took out Ignatius early on. But I think it would still be more accurate to color the city purple rather than blue.

You do realize that all of these names are Roman and Greek. Right?

Jax · Nov 29, 2021

abram said:
Not necessarily. Jewish Christianity never did make major inroads among the Jews of Palestine, since they worshipped a man who was crucified and therefore "cursed" according to Deuteronomy.. It was Paul's "new and improved" version (vicarious atonement, no kosher, no circumcision, salvation by faith) that gave Christianity its shot in the arm among Gentiles, who soon became the dominant element. I wouldn't expect the Ebionites to do much better among Jewish or Gentile communities outside of Palestine. But they do seem to have held on at least until the 7th century. Pines (1966) The Jewish Christians.

I stand by the data. There is no evidence of Christianity in Palestine, Arabia, or Mesopotamia in the early stages of Christianity. As the map makes clear.

The only signs of early Christianity are in Greek and Roman areas. Also made clear by the map.

abram · Nov 29, 2021

Jax said:
You do realize that all of these names are Roman and Greek. Right?

Of course, as were most Christians by the second century--Greco-Roman or acculturated. As I've said often enough, the Jewish Christians were sent packing by the Roman seige of Jerusalem in 70 CE, and experiences a further setback after the Bar Kochba reviolt in 132 CE, when the non-Christian Jews turned against them. There would certainly not be any Jewish Christians as bishops in the Greco-Roman world. However, many scholars think that Gnosticism had Jewish roots. Albrille (2005) Macmillan Encyclopedia of Religion, Brakke, The Gnostics ; Cohn and Mendes -Flohr(2010)Twentieth Century Religious Thought p. 286; Magris (2005), Macmillan Encyclopedia of Religion, 3515-16.

Jax · Nov 29, 2021

abram said:
Of course, as were most Christians by the second century--Greco-Roman or acculturated. As I've said often enough, the Jewish Christians were sent packing by the Roman seige of Jerusalem in 70 CE, and experiences a further setback after the Bar Kochba reviolt in 132 CE, when the non-Christian Jews turned against them. There would certainly not be any Jewish Christians as bishops in the Greco-Roman world.

You of course have some way of proving this I assume?

abram · Nov 30, 2021

Proof? That's asking a lot for ancient religious history. Proof suggests evidence that would convince any reasonable person that a claim is more likely than not to be true. I prefer substantial evidence, which is enough to convince a reasonable person even though other reasonable people aren't convinced. That's the standard used in administrative laws for supporting regulations. I assume you won't be convinced and are a reasonable person, but so long as there are other reasonable folks on the jury who might be persuaded, I'm satisfied

What I have is,first, testimony by Paul and Acts that there were Jewish Christians, including a "circumcision faction" and/or men who "came from James" who intimidated Peter into refraining from table fellowship with Gentile Christians and undermined his teaching that Gentiles didn't have to be circumcised. (Gal. 2:12 ) Ambrosiaster identifies them as men who “were zealous for the law and venerated both Christ and the law on equal footing". Saint Augustine says "from James" didn't necessarily mean James sent them personally, but that they were“from Judea, since James presided over the church of Jerusalem” (145; cf. 144, n. 48) It would be very odd for Paul to make James and the Jerusalem church up. Imaginary friends are one thing,; imaginary rivals another. Acts 15:1 reports that:"some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, 'Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.' " Who do you suppose the were? Acts also tells us that Paul returned to Jerusalem to meet with James and the Jerusalem Church, whereupon James told Paul of concerns that the latter was straying from the Law of Moses, and suggested that Paul go to the Temple in the company of four nazarite men to make amends. (Acts 21:24) Paul agreed. The existence of the Jerusalem Church and the primacy of James as its leader seems clear. (Acts 15: 13-21) So do we believe these sources? Not everything Paul or Acts say is believable, but it would be hard to explain why they or Greco-Roman authors would make up such elaborate tales that suggest James and the Jerusalem church were in the driver's seat. From this I conclude that: there was a Jerusalem Church at the time of Paul led by James; and there was at least a faction within that body that was zealously attached to the Law of Moses.

This is getting to be a long answer, which I don't have time to finish right now. So I'll save it and hopefully have the rest ready this evening. The rest will be the gospels of the Nazerenes and the Ebionites, writings of the herisologists and early church historians(Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Eusebius, Epiphanius) on those sects, and the published work of scholars (presumably reasonable persons) on the subject.

Jax · Nov 30, 2021

abram said:
Proof? That's asking a lot for ancient religious history. Proof suggests evidence that would convince any reasonable person that a claim is more likely than not to be true. I prefer substantial evidence, which is enough to convince a reasonable person even though other reasonable people aren't convinced. That's the standard used in administrative laws for supporting regulations. I assume you won't be convinced and are a reasonable person, but so long as there are other reasonable folks on the jury who might be persuaded, I'm satisfied

What I have is,first, testimony by Paul and Acts that there were Jewish Christians, including a "circumcision faction" and/or men who "came from James" who intimidated Peter into refraining from table fellowship with Gentile Christians and undermined his teaching that Gentiles didn't have to be circumcised. (Gal. 2:12 ) Ambrosiaster identifies them as men who “were zealous for the law and venerated both Christ and the law on equal footing". Saint Augustine says "from James" didn't necessarily mean James sent them personally, but that they were“from Judea, since James presided over the church of Jerusalem” (145; cf. 144, n. 48) It would be very odd for Paul to make James and the Jerusalem church up. Imaginary friends are one thing,; imaginary rivals another. Acts 15:1 reports that:"some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, 'Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.' " Who do you suppose the were? Acts also tells us that Paul returned to Jerusalem to meet with James and the Jerusalem Church, whereupon James told Paul of concerns that the latter was straying from the Law of Moses, and suggested that Paul go to the Temple in the company of four nazarite men to make amends. (Acts 21:24) Paul agreed. The existence of the Jerusalem Church and the primacy of James as its leader seems clear. (Acts 15: 13-21) So do we believe these sources? Not everything Paul or Acts say is believable, but it would be hard to explain why they or Greco-Roman authors would make up such elaborate tales that suggest James and the Jerusalem church were in the driver's seat. From this I conclude that: there was a Jerusalem Church at the time of Paul led by James; and there was at least a faction within that body that was zealously attached to the Law of Moses.

This is getting to be a long answer, which I don't have time to finish right now. So I'll save it and hopefully have the rest ready this evening. The rest will be the gospels of the Nazerenes and the Ebionites, writings of the herisologists and early church historians(Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Eusebius, Epiphanius) on those sects, and the published work of scholars (presumably reasonable persons) on the subject.

Ok. I will allow the statements of Paul as I am a reasonable person and have no grounds to negate his testimony. Acts however is quite another thing entirely. Acts is obvious fiction with a theological and political bent, and as such should not be used as a source of history for the origin of Christianity.

Now, even though I will admit the authentic letters of Paul for information on a possible source of the origins of Christianity, that does not mean that there was some kind of 'church' in Judea that worshiped the Jesus of Nazareth described in the Gospel stories. All it does do is indicate that there were persons in Judea that were followers of some kind of Messianic cult, one so small and insignificant that there is no mention of it from any historical source. The claim of Acts that there were thousands of Christian believers in Palestine in the first century is ridiculous on the face of it. For one: No historians mention these Christians, and we're not talking about one obscure man with a handful of followers but thousands according to Acts and Rodney Stark. This is completely unbelievable. Josephus, at the very least would have mentioned it.
Second: the direction of the spread of Christianity, as I have mentioned, is opposite what a reasonable historian would expect to see if it were a cult started in Judea as it goes west into the Roman sphere as opposed to spreading to Mesopotamia as would be more normal, especially at first. That the author of Acts felt the need to create the story that he did about the source of Judaic Christianity should be a huge red flag to any historian. It is fiction. Pure and simple.
Finally: The complete lack of any Hebrew or Aramaic Christian texts should be a cause of concern for anyone wishing to make a case for a Judaic origin for Christianity. The Greek and Roman themes and attitudes that we see in the early Christian literature as well as Greek being the only language that was used as well as the complete absence of Jewish sensibilities all but guaranties a Greek and Roman origin using Palestine as a backdrop without having a very good grasp of the people of that area.

To conclude: As a reasonable person and historian (albeit amateur), viewing the material that we have, I must conclude that while Paul (for what ever reason) mentions persons in the Levant that are possibly part of a Christ cult, the origin of what we now call Christianity is clearly a Greek and Roman cult that used Jewish themes as its foundation and has it's origin in the areas of Greece and Asia Minor.

abram · Nov 30, 2021

Jewish Christians, Cont'd.

Next point: the Jewish Christian gospels. Two ancient scriptures have been reconstructed which seem to have been in use by two communities of Jewish Christians: the Gospel of the Nazerenes and the Gospel of the Ebionites. Jerome, in Commentaries on Matthew, referred to a Gospel of the Nazarenes which was circulating in the second century and mentioned by St. Jerome and Epiphanius . Gospel of the Nazarenes - Encyclopedia of The Bible - Bible Gateway The designation "Gospel of the Nazerenes" is a hypothetical given to some 50 verses attributed to this community collated from quotations various church fathers, primarily St. Jerome and Epiphanius, supposedly drawing from a Hebrew or Aramaic source that was similar to, but different from, the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of the Hebrews--mainly in absence of virgin birth and an adoptionist account of Jesus' baptism. The so-called Gospel of the Ebionites is likewise known to us through the writings of proto-orthodox church fathers, primarily Epiphanius in his Panarion: 30.13.1-8, 30.14.5, 30.16.4-5, and 30.22.4. It is similar to the Gospel of the Hebrews and the Gospel of the Nazarenes, but with a vegetarian John the Baptist who subsisted on pancakes and honey instead of locusts and honey.http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/gospelebionites.html All admittedly sketchy, but it seems unlikely that the church fathers would have made this up. Ehrman notes that both gospels emphasize the Jewishness of Jesus. Bart Ehrman (2003) The Lost Christianities.

On to the heresiologists. Unfortunately, much of what we know is also courtesy of the early church fathers, historians, and herisiologists, who were obviously biased against these "heretics". Epiphanius is the most detailed. The Jewish Christians were called Nazerenes before 70 CE, but acccording to Epiphaneus about the time of the Roman seige of Jerusalem, they split into two factions. Both were Torah-obsevant observant Jews who thought of Jesus as the Jewish Messiah and adopted Son of God (at His baptism), but rejected His primordial divinity and virgin birth.. The more radical of the two, the Ebionites, fled to Pella, while the more moderate Nazoreans went to Beoria (now Aleppo) in Syria. The Ebionites repudiated Paul, were vegetarians, anti-sacrifice, and insistent on kosher diet and circumcision as pre-conditions for Christianity. The Nazoreans ate meat and accepted that Christian Gentiles could be brothers in Christ if they observed the Noahide laws. Were Nazarenes and Ebionites the Same? – Nazarene Judaism https://digitalcommons.kennesaw.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1147&context=kjur Were Nazarenes and Ebionites the Same? – Nazarene Judaism Ebionite | religious sect Justin Martyr seems to be referring to this difference when he distinguishes between Jewish Christians who expect non-Jewish Christians to observe the Law of Moses and those other observant Jewish Christians who don't. Dialogue With Trypho. Some scholars have noted striking similarities between the beliefs and practices of the Ebionites and the Jewish sect, the Essenes. Irenaeus seems to have been the first to use the label Ebionites. Ebionites & Nazarenes: Tracking the Original Followers of Jesus The vegetarianism and dedication to poverty stand out. "Ebionite" derives from "the poor". The term Nazoreans seems to have been used by John the Baptist's sect. Interestingly, it is also the name of the clergy of the Iranian gnostic group the Mandaeans, who claim John the Baptist as their founder. The Christian hersiologists tend to portray the Jewish Christians as having lapsed into Judaizing practice, but it seems more likely that the reverse is true. They were truer to the original form practiced by the Jerusalem church, and it was Paul and his Gentile converts who departed from that.

TBC

abram · Nov 30, 2021

Jax said:
Ok. I will allow the statements of Paul as I am a reasonable person and have no grounds to negate his testimony. Acts however is quite another thing entirely. Acts is obvious fiction with a theological and political bent, and as such should not be used as a source of history for the origin of Christianity.

Now, even though I will admit the authentic letters of Paul for information on a possible source of the origins of Christianity, that does not mean that there was some kind of 'church' in Judea that worshiped the Jesus of Nazareth described in the Gospel stories. All it does do is indicate that there were persons in Judea that were followers of some kind of Messianic cult, one so small and insignificant that there is no mention of it from any historical source. The claim of Acts that there were thousands of Christian believers in Palestine in the first century is ridiculous on the face of it. For one: No historians mention these Christians, and we're not talking about one obscure man with a handful of followers but thousands according to Acts and Rodney Stark. This is completely unbelievable. Josephus, at the very least would have mentioned it.
Second: the direction of the spread of Christianity, as I have mentioned, is opposite what a reasonable historian would expect to see if it were a cult started in Judea as it goes west into the Roman sphere as opposed to spreading to Mesopotamia as would be more normal, especially at first. That the author of Acts felt the need to create the story that he did about the source of Judaic Christianity should be a huge red flag to any historian. It is fiction. Pure and simple.
Finally: The complete lack of any Hebrew or Aramaic Christian texts should be a cause of concern for anyone wishing to make a case for a Judaic origin for Christianity. The Greek and Roman themes and attitudes that we see in the early Christian literature as well as Greek being the only language that was used as well as the complete absence of Jewish sensibilities all but guaranties a Greek and Roman origin using Palestine as a backdrop without having a very good grasp of the people of that area.

To conclude: As a reasonable person and historian (albeit amateur), viewing the material that we have, I must conclude that while Paul (for what ever reason) mentions persons in the Levant that are possibly part of a Christ cult, the origin of what we now call Christianity is clearly a Greek and Roman cult that used Jewish themes as its foundation and has it's origin in the areas of Greece and Asia Minor.

Acts is propaganda, I agree, but it's hard to see why they'd make up Jerome's leadership and the primacy of the Jerusalem church, especially since Luke's major objective seems to have been to present Christians as a united movement. As for Josephus, most scholars think he does mention James--and even Jesus, indirectly. I'm not referring to the Testamonium Flavianum (in Aniquities, book 18) which most scholars regard as a Christian forgery, but rather the passage in Book 20:9 where he speaks of James "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James", which most scholars believe to be authentic. (Baukham, 1999; Feldman, 1984; Feldman and Hata, 1987; Meier, 1990; Painter, 2005); Van Voorst, 2000 ). I'm not surprised that Josephus didn't go into Jewish Christianity. Even a monumental tome on Judaism, he had to be somewhat selective, and probably didn't consider Christianity to be that important. At the time he was writing, there weren't that many Chrsitians in Palesine, and they seemed to be a sect within a sect. He painted the divisions in Judaism with a broad brush; Sadduccees, Pharisees, Essenes, and the "Fourth Philosophy" (eventually Zealots) whose name he won't mention. He would probably view the Jewish Christians as Essenes who happened to believe that a dead crucified criminal was the Jewish Messiah but in other respects were observant Jews who worshiped in the same places and manner as the others. How would he explain that one.to a Greco-Roman audience? Paul was a Greek -speaking Jew reputed to be a Roman citizen. The Mediterranean world was where the action was. Why would he go to Mesopotamia. Considering that the early Jewish Christians were largely illiterate ex-fishermen and women, it's not surprising they didn't write much.

Now over to you. Why would a Greek and Roman cult originating in Greece and Asia minor develop a savior who was an executed Jewish criminal in Palestine? Didn't they have enough mystery religions to serve their spiritual needs?

abram · Nov 30, 2021

Conclusion: Scholarship on Jewish Christians. I should mention that I'm not the only one to think the Jerusalem Church and Jewish Christians were a first century reality. For others who share this view, see: Cynthia White, The emergence of Christianity (2007), p. 36; Hans-Joachim Scoeps (1969) Jewish Chrsitianity. Jewish Christianity; Bart Ehrman (2005) Lost Christianities: Sholomo Pines(1966).The Jewish Christians of the Early First Century;

EBIONITES - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

Nazarenes and Ebionites

Josephus reports four main sects or schools of Judaism: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and Zealots. The earliest followers of Jesus were known as Nazarenes, and perhaps later, Ebionites, and form a…

pages.charlotte.edu

Obviously, these reasonable people are convinced. The case is plausible, consistent with the available evidence, and in my opinion, the most plausible explanation of Christianity's origins. I rest my case.

JoanOfArc007 · Nov 30, 2021

Nevets said:
Head of the Catholic church

According to Catholic tradition the first Christian pope was already in place by 30AD in the shape of Saint Peter, and according to the Liber Pontificalis Saint Peter was succeeded by Pope Linus in 67AD, and then by Pope Anecletus, whom is said to have divided Rome into twenty-five parishes.

The last supper, Midnight mass, Easter, Lent, Gloria

Pope Alexander I is credited with inserting the narration of the Last supper into the liturgy of the Mass between 107 and 115AD, and between 126 and 137AD Pope Telesphorus credited with starting the tradition of Midnight mass, Easter, Lent, and the singing of Gloria in excelsis Deo. All this is disputed by some historians, however there is little doubt that all those traditions were pre-constantine.

Godparents, Easter Sunday, Persecutions

In the years between 136AD and 142AD Pope Hyginus instituted godparents at baptism to assist the baptised during their Christian life, and between 140AD and 154AD Pope Pius I is said to have decreed that Easter should only be kept on a Sunday. Under Pope Pius I we also see the first persecutions of those with different faith in the shape of the Valentinians and Gnostics.

Marraige, Easter annual festival

Between 167 and 174AD Pope Soter declared that marraige was valid only as a sacrament blessed by a priest, and uncontroversially inaugrated Easter as an annual festival.

Schism

In the year 199AD we see the first signs of a schism, in the shape of Natalius, whom is considered the first Antipope.

So pre-Constantine Christianity is certainly shaping up to be the Christianity we know today.

Those are Informative points you’ve raised . From the Catholic perspective the church has been in continuation since the very days of Jesus the founder of the Catholic Church. Non Catholic sources as shown below from Britannica a well respected world encyclopedia... effectively suggests the folks who want to learn about the earliest Christians to go to Catholic sources about the issue. Much of what we know about early Christianity is based on the writings and teachings of Catholics.

“The Roman Catholic Church traces its history to Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Over the course of centuries it developed a highly sophisticated theology and an elaborate organizational structure headed by the papacy, the oldest continuing absolute monarchy in the world.

“The number of Roman Catholics in the world (nearly 1.1 billion) is greater than that of nearly all other religious traditions. There are more Roman Catholics than all other Christians combined and more Roman Catholics than all Buddhists or Hindus. Although there are more Muslims than Roman Catholics, the number of Roman Catholics is greater than that of the individual traditions of Shiʿi and Sunni Islam.

These incontestable statistical and historical facts suggest that some understanding of Roman Catholicism—its history, its institutional structure, its beliefs and practices, and its place in the world—is an indispensable component of cultural literacy, regardless of how one may individually answer the ultimate questions of life and death and faith. Without a grasp of what Roman Catholicism is, it is difficult to make historical sense of the Middle Ages, intellectual sense of the works of St. Thomas Aquinas, literary sense of The Divine Comedy of Dante, artistic sense of the Gothic cathedrals, or musical sense of many of the compositions of Haydn and Mozart.

At one level, of course, the interpretation of Roman Catholicism is closely related to the interpretation of Christianity as such. By its own reading of history, Roman Catholicism originated with the very beginnings of Christianity”

Roman Catholicism | Definition, Beliefs, Practices, Christianity, Founded, History, & Facts | Britannica

Roman Catholicism is a Christian religion that has been the decisive spiritual force in the history of Western civilization. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity. It is led by the pope, as the bishop of Rome, and the Holy See forms...

www.britannica.com

JoanOfArc007 · Nov 30, 2021

Rumopson said:
Had there been much debated or researched on them? Do we know there religious books? order of services ? practices ? Holy days festivals? Were there any schisms? Heads of churches? What were their views on the Roman gods snd religions? Do we know how they felt when Constantine suddenly converted? Were they against the Roman ‘take over’ of their faith after being oppressed by them? Wasn’t it a case of the Romans simply forcing their religion on to the Christians and calling it by another name? Christians follow the Roman calendar all named after Roman gods. Some Christian practices came from Roman or pagan religion.

I will go as far as saying pre Constantine Christians religion was totally different to what Christianity became. It wouldprobably be seen as ‘pagan’ and not Christian and Christianity is in fact the ‘pagan’ religion.

A Resource that could perhaps assist you

Where did the Roman Catholic Church come from?

“The Church at Rome, which would later develop into what we know as Roman Catholicism, was started in the apostolic times (circa AD 30-95). Although we do not have records of the first Christian missionaries to Rome, it is obvious that a church existed there as the New Testament Scriptures were being written. St. Paul himself wrote an epistle to the church at Rome, and the Book of Acts records some of his dealings there. St. Clement of Rome (ca. 35-99), St. Ignatius of Antioch (35-108), and St. Irenaeus of Lyons (130-202) all speak as if St. Simon Peter ministered in Rome, serving as its first bishop (the term “bishop” is an English contraction of the biblical Greek word episkopos, often translated as “overseer” in modern Protestant translations of the New Testament). Tertullian (ca. 155-240) reported that Peter died in the same place as Paul, and it is commonly believed that Paul was martyred in Rome. Since both Peter and Paul were such important and prominent apostles, Rome became an important pilgrimage site for Christians who wanted to visit their graves and worship near where they were buried.”

Redirect Notice

abram · Dec 1, 2021

I disagree. What I and others have been arguing is the opposite:. The Catholic claim that there was an unbroken line of authority and unity from day one is a myth developed to support its primacy. There was , in fact, quite a lot of diversity--Jewish Christians initially heading the dominant church in Jerusalem, Marcionites with their two gods, Gnostics with as many as 365 gods. etc. (Ehrman, Lost Christianities;The Catholic Church developed from the Paulist wing that thrived after its main rival in Jerusalem was decimated by the Romans. I think it's success owed much to superior organization; a message with more popular appeal;a willingness to incorporate some of James' ideas into their Paulist framework; strong-willed individuals like Tertulian, Irenaeus, Cyril,and Athanasius; the intolerant zeal of the herisiologists, and of course Constantine. Survival of the fittest! Darwin in action!

Jax · Dec 1, 2021

abram said:
Conclusion: Scholarship on Jewish Christians. I should mention that I'm not the only one to think the Jerusalem Church and Jewish Christians were a first century reality. For others who share this view, see: Cynthia White, The emergence of Christianity (2007), p. 36; Hans-Joachim Scoeps (1969) Jewish Chrsitianity. Jewish Christianity; Bart Ehrman (2005) Lost Christianities: Sholomo Pines(1966).The Jewish Christians of the Early First Century;

EBIONITES - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

Nazarenes and Ebionites

Josephus reports four main sects or schools of Judaism: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and Zealots. The earliest followers of Jesus were known as Nazarenes, and perhaps later, Ebionites, and form a…

pages.charlotte.edu

Obviously, these reasonable people are convinced. The case is plausible, consistent with the available evidence, and in my opinion, the most plausible explanation of Christianity's origins. I rest my case.

I give up. You win. It's all true, all of it.

See you around.

abram · Dec 1, 2021

What a sport! You're probably too kind and generous, since I doubt it's all true, but it's my best effort to make sense of the available facts. Much depends on inference and judgment, which are partly intuitive.

Yôḥānān · Dec 2, 2021

Jax said:
Ok. I will allow the statements of Paul as I am a reasonable person and have no grounds to negate his testimony. Acts however is quite another thing entirely. Acts is obvious fiction with a theological and political bent, and as such should not be used as a source of history for the origin of Christianity.

Now, even though I will admit the authentic letters of Paul for information on a possible source of the origins of Christianity, that does not mean that there was some kind of 'church' in Judea that worshiped the Jesus of Nazareth described in the Gospel stories. All it does do is indicate that there were persons in Judea that were followers of some kind of Messianic cult, one so small and insignificant that there is no mention of it from any historical source. The claim of Acts that there were thousands of Christian believers in Palestine in the first century is ridiculous on the face of it. For one: No historians mention these Christians, and we're not talking about one obscure man with a handful of followers but thousands according to Acts and Rodney Stark. This is completely unbelievable. Josephus, at the very least would have mentioned it.
Second: the direction of the spread of Christianity, as I have mentioned, is opposite what a reasonable historian would expect to see if it were a cult started in Judea as it goes west into the Roman sphere as opposed to spreading to Mesopotamia as would be more normal, especially at first. That the author of Acts felt the need to create the story that he did about the source of Judaic Christianity should be a huge red flag to any historian. It is fiction. Pure and simple.
Finally: The complete lack of any Hebrew or Aramaic Christian texts should be a cause of concern for anyone wishing to make a case for a Judaic origin for Christianity. The Greek and Roman themes and attitudes that we see in the early Christian literature as well as Greek being the only language that was used as well as the complete absence of Jewish sensibilities all but guaranties a Greek and Roman origin using Palestine as a backdrop without having a very good grasp of the people of that area.

To conclude: As a reasonable person and historian (albeit amateur), viewing the material that we have, I must conclude that while Paul (for what ever reason) mentions persons in the Levant that are possibly part of a Christ cult, the origin of what we now call Christianity is clearly a Greek and Roman cult that used Jewish themes as its foundation and has it's origin in the areas of Greece and Asia Minor.

What about hellenized Jews? Dionysus and Jesus compared. It's curious how ancient authors thought the Jews worshipped Dionysus.

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