Propaganda at the Movies.

betgo · Jun 13, 2025

My father told me stories of Communist infiltration at his college. I saw Communist infiltration of the news media, etc.

It is very naive to think that it was about their rights to their political beliefs. A lot of effort was needed with the blacklist, etc. to clear Communists out of writing movies, etc. They were in the movie industry for a reason. It didn't just happen. As robto implied, Communists controlled much of the movie business in some other countries and nothing was done about it.

robto · Jun 13, 2025

betgo said:
My father told me stories of Communist infiltration at his college. I saw Communist infiltration of the news media, etc.

It is very naive to think that it was about their rights to their political beliefs. A lot of effort was needed with the blacklist, etc. to clear Communists out of writing movies, etc. They were in the movie industry for a reason. It didn't just happen. As robto implied, Communists controlled much of the movie business in some other countries and nothing was done about it.

You are misquoting me. Don't do that ever again, please.
I did not say anything about "control"; what I said is that people with communist sympathies were very present in the moviemaking business. And I told you that's just a natural proclivity since people who are more towards the left or have a non-conformist worldview tend to be more into the Arts, specifically a very new, and subversive, form of Art such as Cinema.

There was no conspiracy, nor a nefarious organizing of the Communist Party, and even less so the USSR itself, to "infiltrate" the cinema industry of Italy, France, or Japan. It was just an expected tendency that people who like communism gravitate towards the performative arts. Not acknowledging that is not knowing anything about the cultural landscape in the post-war years.

Communism was indigenously popular amongst the students, intelligentsia, and the industrial working classes in many liberal democratic countries in the immediate post-war years. This was just the cultural zeitgeist of the era, and the Soviet Union, although loving that fact, had a very passive role in controlling that cultural force. In fact, they didn't control most of it.

Dave Evans · Jun 13, 2025

betgo said:
Yes, those guys experienced Communist infiltration of the motion picture industry.

And it didn't appear to do their careers any harm whatsoever.

betgo · Jun 13, 2025

I didn't misquote you. I just gave my interpretation. You all are really naive about Communist infiltration.

Reagan dealt with Communists trying to control the Screen Actors Guild. All the actors you mentioned knew what went on with the Communists and Hollywood in the 30s and 40s. Maybe didn't hurt their careers. Most of the Communists were thrown out of Hollywood by the 50s.

Dave Evans · Jun 13, 2025

betgo said:
I didn't misquote you. I just gave my interpretation. You all are really naive about Communist infiltration.

Reagan dealt with Communists trying to control the Screen Actors Guild. All the actors you mentioned knew what went on with the Communists and Hollywood in the 30s and 40s. Maybe didn't hurt their careers. Most of the Communists were thrown out of Hollywood by the 50s.

I think the naivety lies in believing that a comparative handful of screenwriters, actors and others in the movie business (whether communists or not) could exert any degree of 'control' over Hollywood when none of them were within a mile of actually running a major studio, much less any of the distributors and exhibitors. They were all employees, many of them freelance at that. Their livelihoods were dependent on producers who in turn worked at the whim of the studios who responded to the whims of the market.

The fact is that if public taste had demanded that Mr Deeds start a collective farm, rather than going to town, that's what he would have done. But, as we all know, that wasn't the case and no amount of unproduced scenarios from earnest screenwriters (card carrying or otherwise) would be able to change that.

robto · Jun 13, 2025

betgo said:
I didn't misquote you. I just gave my interpretation. You all are really naive about Communist infiltration.

No, I'm not. I'm pretty confident that I'm far more knowledgeable about communism than you are, to be honest with you. Not only because of my academic credentials, but most of all, from my upbringing and family background. So yeah, I'm pretty positive about that.

betgo said:
Reagan dealt with Communists trying to control the Screen Actors Guild. All the actors you mentioned knew what went on with the Communists and Hollywood in the 30s and 40s. Maybe didn't hurt their careers. Most of the Communists were thrown out of Hollywood by the 50s.

Can you talk about the movie industry worldwide instead of just focusing on Hollywood in the 1950s?

betgo · Jun 13, 2025

I don't know much about the movie industry world wide.

I do know the Communists infiltrated the Roosevelt administration and used that both to influence policy and for spying. There were certain labor unions in the US which were Communist controlled or influenced. Those generally were not allowed in the AFL-CIO, as mob influenced unions were not allowed in. Communist infiltrated Churches in the US, universities, news media, etc.

The HUAC was interested in how Communists were controlling parts of the movie industry and influencing the movies that were produced. It wasn't about people's beliefs. It was about conspiratorial actions.

In general, my impression that Communist infiltration was worse in some other countries. Communism might have been somewhat different in France and Italy with large memberships and voting strength. In the US, it was a tiny disciplined organization.

I totally agree that the US government became more like the Communist and Fascist governments it fought. In fact former SS, most prominently Von Braun, got positions in the US government. Much of what was done by the anti-Communists who became powerful in the US may be questionable.

It is just extremely naive to take the attitude that it didn't matter that the Hollywood Ten were Communists.

vans · Jun 14, 2025

betgo said:
My father told me stories of Communist infiltration at his college. I saw Communist infiltration of the news media, etc.

It is very naive to think that it was about their rights to their political beliefs. A lot of effort was needed with the blacklist, etc. to clear Communists out of writing movies, etc. They were in the movie industry for a reason. It didn't just happen. As robto implied, Communists controlled much of the movie business in some other countries and nothing was done about it.

Infiltration is an emotive word, that has a specific meaning. Do you have evidence that communists were infiltrated into the US film industry, rather that worked in the US film industry?

Dave Evans · Jun 14, 2025

vans said:
Infiltration is an emotive word, that has a specific meaning. Do you have evidence that communists were infiltrated into the US film industry, rather that worked in the US film industry?

Apparently one cannot simply exist as a communist without an irresistible urge to be infiltrated into something or other. I'm told (repeatedly) that it is naive to think otherwise.

betgo · Jun 14, 2025

I am not an expert on Communist influenced movies. Here is an internal FBI report, which eventually was made public. It discusses dozens of Communist influenced movies, including many from after WWII.

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dn721608.ca.archive.org

I am sure Reagan, Wayne, and Heston mentioned before had experience with Communist infiltration and were not making it up out of thin air.

It is obviously just coincidence that of 30,000 US Communist Party members so many wound up in key positions in the film industry, the government, labor unions, etc.

Tercios Espanoles · Jun 14, 2025

betgo said:
I am not an expert on Communist influenced movies. Here is an internal FBI report, which eventually was made public. It discusses dozens of Communist influenced movies, including many from after WWII.

Loading…

dn721608.ca.archive.org

I am sure Reagan, Wayne, and Heston mentioned before had experience with Communist infiltration and were not making it up out of thin air.

It is obviously just coincidence that of 30,000 US Communist Party members so many wound up in key positions in the film industry, the government, labor unions, etc.

Interesting document.

Dave Evans · Jun 14, 2025

Tercios Espanoles said:
Interesting document.

I particularly enjoyed the essay by Eisenstein, it provided an interesting counterpoint to the FBI's amateur film critics club.

vans · Jun 14, 2025

betgo said:
I am not an expert on Communist influenced movies. Here is an internal FBI report, which eventually was made public. It discusses dozens of Communist influenced movies, including many from after WWII.

Loading…

dn721608.ca.archive.org

I am sure Reagan, Wayne, and Heston mentioned before had experience with Communist infiltration and were not making it up out of thin air.

It is obviously just coincidence that of 30,000 US Communist Party members so many wound up in key positions in the film industry, the government, labor unions

30,000 communist out of an American population in 1950 of 151m is a tiny figure. If only a portion of those 30,000 worked in the film industry they would have made up a tiny percentage of those employed in the golden age of Hollywood. MGM alone employed 5000-6000 people at their main studio, let alone all the other studios. And of that tiny communist percentage, many would have been carpenter, maintenance men, cleaners etc. So the communist percentage of the creatives and decision makers would have been tiny, in a business run by people who’s main goal is to make money by making films that Americans will pay to see in large numbers.

betgo · Jun 15, 2025

Yeah, so maybe 1/10 or 1% of adult males in the US were Communists and at least 1/4 of the screen writers were Communists.

It is more lengthy, but there are transcripts of the HUAC hearings with friendly witnesses who were former Communists describing how Communist cells in Hollywood worked, etc.

Yes, there are books, etc. on the blacklist, etc. which continue with the Hollywood Ten's claim that it was about free speech, and they were being persecuted for their political beliefs. However, these materials are dishonest in that they ignore most of the evidence that was presented.

At Each Kilometer · Jun 15, 2025

According to 1950 USA Census, available for the public, the total population 21 and over was 97 million and women outnumbered men by about 2 million (immediately after the war), ergo the male population 21 and over in 1950 was around 47.5 million roughly. One percent from 47.5 million is 475 thousand and 30,000 enemies of the state mentioned above are around 0.06% of the male adult population at the time. I dont have any data about the percentage of screen writers, though they are treacherous bunch of ppl in general indeed.

Dave Evans · Jun 15, 2025

betgo said:
Yeah, so maybe 1/10 or 1% of adult males in the US were Communists and at least 1/4 of the screen writers were Communists.

It is more lengthy, but there are transcripts of the HUAC hearings with friendly witnesses who were former Communists describing how Communist cells in Hollywood worked, etc.

Yes, there are books, etc. on the blacklist, etc. which continue with the Hollywood Ten's claim that it was about free speech, and they were being persecuted for their political beliefs. However, these materials are dishonest in that they ignore most of the evidence that was presented.

30,000 expressed as percentage of 151,000,000 is approximately 0.0002. In other words about 1 in 5,000 of the US population. So neither 1/10, nor 1%.

Apropos of nothing, in the late 1930s the Shirley Temple fan club had 384 branches and almost 4,000,000 members. Or about 1 in every 37 Americans.

johnincornwall · Jun 15, 2025

betgo said:
Yeah, so maybe 1/10 or 1% of adult males in the US were Communists and at least 1/4 of the screen writers were Communists.

It is more lengthy, but there are transcripts of the HUAC hearings with friendly witnesses who were former Communists describing how Communist cells in Hollywood worked, etc.

Yes, there are books, etc. on the blacklist, etc. which continue with the Hollywood Ten's claim that it was about free speech, and they were being persecuted for their political beliefs. However, these materials are dishonest in that they ignore most of the evidence that was presented.

I think you're losing it my friend, apart from the dubious mathematics. Reds under the beds?

vans · Jun 15, 2025

At Each Kilometer said:
According to 1950 USA Census, available for the public, the total population 21 and over was 97 million and women outnumbered men by about 2 million (immediately after the war), ergo the male population 21 and over in 1950 was around 47.5 million roughly. One percent from 47.5 million is 475 thousand and 30,000 enemies of the state mentioned above are around 0.06% of the male adult population at the time. I dont have any data about the percentage of screen writers, though they are treacherous bunch of ppl in general indeed.

A few questions, what makes you think that all the 30,000 communists were men? Also, why do you call them enemies of the state? There is still a communist party in America, they have a website. Are they enemies of the state as well?

The real enemies of the state were not members of the communist party of America, because if they were they would not have been employed where they could have been useful to Moscow. The real damage was done by people who hid their communist affiliation got into positions where they had access to secrets and passed them on to Moscow.

pugsville · Jun 15, 2025

betgo said:
Yeah, so maybe 1/10 or 1% of adult males in the US were Communists and at least 1/4 of the screen writers were Communists.

It is more lengthy, but there are transcripts of the HUAC hearings with friendly witnesses who were former Communists describing how Communist cells in Hollywood worked, etc.

Yes, there are books, etc. on the blacklist, etc. which continue with the Hollywood Ten's claim that it was about free speech, and they were being persecuted for their political beliefs. However, these materials are dishonest in that they ignore most of the evidence that was presented.

Ideological show trails are not a great source on factually accurate evidence. o you really just accept this stuff at face value?

At Each Kilometer · Jun 15, 2025

vans said:
A few questions, what makes you think that all the 30,000 communists were men? Also, why do you call them enemies of the state? There is still a communist party in America, they have a website. Are they enemies of the state as well?

My bad, it is not a strange case of misandry I assure you. It was @betgo first, who mentioned the alleged ... of this treacherous kind, so I just did a bit of math, based on this data. Regarding the 'enemies of the state' term, I am sorry, I meant potential 'enemies of the state'.

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