Question on the French intervention in Mexico

Joined Nov 2010
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Cornwall
They probably thought it would all end in tears. And they were right.

Or as AJP Taylor put it:

Napoleon III learned from the mistakes of his uncle.........................................how to make new ones
 
Joined Oct 2010
11,970 Posts | 30+
Canada
It seems as if they thought it a good opportunity at first, but then realized it could result in France dominating Europe once again. So, instead of supporting the French, they allowed them to make their own mess, so they would end up becoming weaker. Personally, I believe that if France had been on the verge of success, some of those countries would have assisted Mexico in combating France.
 
Joined Jun 2012
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Texas
It seems as if they thought it a good opportunity at first, but then realized it could result in France dominating Europe once again. So, instead of supporting the French, they allowed them to make their own mess, so they would end up becoming weaker. Personally, I believe that if France had been on the verge of success, some of those countries would have assisted Mexico in combating France.


Had it been more successful, the odds of a Franco - US War (second one) would have gone up tremendously. The US would have went from substantial monetary and military support to potentially direct action.

Interestingly would the destruction of French naval and land assets in the Western Hemisphere have impacted the government and potentially stopped the Franco Prussian war from happening. (serious question as I don't quite understand why that war occurred).
 
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Canada
Had it been more successful, the odds of a Franco - US War (second one) would have gone up tremendously. The US would have went from substantial monetary and military support to potentially direct action.

Interestingly would the destruction of French naval and land assets in the Western Hemisphere have impacted the government and potentially stopped the Franco Prussian war from happening. (serious question as I don't quite understand why that war occurred).

Well, Von Bisrack would certainly not have been as bold if France had been stronger. It all comes down to the balance of power.

As for the US, I think the French should have formed an alliance that would have benefited both countries. Instead of gaining nothing from all their efforts, if the French had convinced the US to split the spoils with them, it could have resulted in both countries coming out on top.
 
Joined Apr 2017
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Las Vegas, NV USA
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Well, Von Bisrack would certainly not have been as bold if France had been stronger. It all comes down to the balance of power.

As for the US, I think the French should have formed an alliance that would have benefited both countries. Instead of gaining nothing from all their efforts, if the French had convinced the US to split the spoils with them, it could have resulted in both countries coming out on top.

The US had gotten what it wanted from Mexico in 1845. It wasn't interested in absorbing the more heavily populated areas of the Spanish speaking nation. The US was not naturally a colonial power. At the time it wanted the boundaries it eventually achieved during the administration of James Polk. It later bought the Gadsen Purchase for a railroad at about the same price as it paid for the Mexican Cession.
 
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Joined Jun 2016
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Oregon
Thanks again for contributing - did anyone have any idea what Denmark thought of the idea?
 
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Second City
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The US had gotten what it wanted from Mexico in 1845. It wasn't interested in absorbing the more heavily populated areas of the Spanish speaking nation. The US was not naturally a colonial power. At the time it wanted the boundaries it eventually achieved during the administration of James Polk. It later bought the Gadsen Purchase for a railroad at about the same price as it paid for the Mexican Cession.

"The US was not naturally a colonial power"? So how on earth did a strand of agrarian colonies cross the Alleghenies to conquer everything between them and the Pacific? The colonies were slavering over the Ohio Country before the Revolution, and that slavering persisted after independence as the U.S. turned hungry eyes on the Louisiana Country, the Canadas, Cuba, the Floridas, Texas, California, various Pacific archipelagos, Cuba (again)...

True, the United States did not join the league of maritime imperial powers until the 1890s-1900s, but that was because it had spent every minute of its previous existence being a land empire that was largely concerned with the process of internal colonization, which usually entailed taking land from indigenous peoples who were then displaced or outright butchered by settlers, state militias, and/or the U.S. Army. Lest it be forgot, the "Frontier" was only declared closed by the U.S. Census Bureau in 1890. Unsurprisingly, U.S. imperialism would then turn outwards before decade's (and century's) end.

A word on the borders established following the Mexican-American War: They were not what the United States wanted in 1848. After the lightning victory of U.S. arms over Mexico in 1847, a large faction of the ruling Democratic Party wanted the United States to annex the whole of Mexico, not just those of its northern territories which would connect the United States with California.

President Polk himself had pronounced sympathies for the "All Mexico" movement, and the borders he himself laid out (image below) were somewhere between "All Mexico" and the final settlement of Guadalupe-Hidalgo.

pwXoy.jpg


It should be noted that the terms laid out in the treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo were something of a fait accompli. There was enormous pressure within both the Congress and the American electorate to end the war, whatever the terms, and quite a lot of that faction preferred no territorial gains from the war whatever. More than that, the treaty had been negotiated by a diplomat whom Polk had recalled, only to receive a 65-page letter from the envoy (one Nicholas Trist) informing Polk why he was ignoring the president's orders and continuing with the negotiations, official sanction or no. By the time a furious Polk received the treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo in February of 1848, the anti-war fervor had only grown (as had the cries to annex all Mexico), and there were serious concerns over whether there would be any Mexican government to negotiate with if the treaty were rejected, as the Mexican Congress's legitimacy was on shaky ground within Mexico itself, as a quorum was difficult to achieve in the temporary capital of Queretaro, and a defiant Santa Anna was still loose the country at the head of an army. Given the many signs that this may be the only chance for a U.S.-Mexican peace, Polk reluctantly agreed and sent the treaty to the Congress. (Which body would have been outraged had the president sought to keep the treaty from it.)

After sending the treaty to Congress, Polk nevertheless attempted to get Congress to approve a humanitarian intervention in Yucatan and establish a U.S. protectorate there (John Calhoun was the foremost Congressional opponent of this scheme), and further attempted to purchase Cuba from Spain for the sum of $100 million. Franklin Pierce Southern sympathies would also seem him adjust the U.S. borders in Latin America, whether it be another attempt to buy Cuba, or the successful Gadsden Purchase, which had been secured to ease the forging of a transcontinental railroad on a Southern route.
 
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Joined Apr 2017
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"The US was not naturally a colonial power"? So how on earth did a strand of agrarian colonies cross the Alleghenies to conquer everything between them and the Pacific?

Before the Spanish American War, the US had no colonies. It was a continental power and in the contiguous territory of the US was goverened as a single entity. How many "colonies" did Russia have? In 1898 the US did gain some colonies but it's "empire" was small compared to other powers. Hawaii became a territory and eventually state as did Alaska. The Philippines gained independence in 1946. Puerto Rico twice chose to be a self governing commonwealth in general elections. They hold US citizenship and do not have to pay Federal income taxes. They are fully eligible for disaster relief and other benefits for being part of the US.
 
Joined Apr 2017
4,479 Posts | 876+
Las Vegas, NV USA
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"The US was not naturally a colonial power"? So how on earth did a strand of agrarian colonies cross the Alleghenies to conquer everything between them and the Pacific?

By "colonies", I meant subordinate entities to a state where generally the rights citizenship in the dominating state is not granted. France is a modern exception. The US was a continental power with no distiction between the "home country" and the subordinate "colony" was made. Sparsely populated areas were governed directly by the Federal Government as territories.
 
Joined Feb 2013
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Before the Spanish American War, the US had no colonies. It was a continental power and in the contiguous territory of the US was goverened as a single entity.
That's how land empires work. "Territories" is the term land empires use for "colonies", administered as they were by the Federal government in Washington. And, as in most colonies, the American settlers had rather more rights to rather more things than the indigenous peoples.

How many "colonies" did Russia have?
Maritime colonies? Alaska for most of a century, as well as Sakhalin and some islands in the Arctic. On land? Russia considered practically the whole of Siberia, as well as Turkestan and Ukraine as internal colonies in need of colonization. Apart from Alaska, the Soviets viewed these territories in the same, though often more explicit, terms (especially Ukraine).

In 1898 the US did gain some colonies but it's "empire" was small compared to other powers. Hawaii became a territory and eventually state as did Alaska. The Philippines gained independence in 1946. Puerto Rico twice chose to be a self governing commonwealth in general elections. They hold US citizenship and do not have to pay Federal income taxes. They are fully eligible for disaster relief and other benefits for being part of the US.
The U.S. maritime empire was "small" because it came to the game late, and even then "small" is a relative term. Hawai'i, Alaska, and the Philippines are actually all rather larger than any other imperial holdings in the Pacific, with the exceptions of the sprawling Dutch East Indies and the British dominion of Australia.

By "colonies", I meant subordinate entities to a state where generally the rights citizenship in the dominating state is not granted. France is a modern exception.
I'm not really sure what you mean by this. Do you mean where citizenship wasn't extended beyond the community of colonizers? Because that was the U.S. policy anywhere with Native Americans, like California, for example. I'd also add that, by your definition, several states of the American South would qualify as some form of colony due to citizenship (and/or the rights of citizenship) being denied to the majority of residents.

The US was a continental power with no distiction between the "home country" and the subordinate "colony" was made. Sparsely populated areas were governed directly by the Federal Government as territories.
"Territory" was the name given to the continental colonies won by the United States. Hence the difference between "territories" administered by the Federal government, and the self-governing States which constituted the federal Union. That said, there are large areas of gray, given that many of these places continued to function as colonies/territories well after they had won their statehood.
 
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Joined Mar 2013
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Kirkcaldy, Scotland
It shows how dumb Naploeon III really was given the Monroe Doctrine which was only temporaily suspended because of the 1861-65 American Civil War.
Onnce thae ended Maximillian HADN'T S SNOWBALL'S CHANCE IN HELL AGAINST U.S. Diplomacy and Juarez's's rebel armies.
However, Naploeon III's wife and family were granted political asylum in Great Britain (not England which had cesed to exist as a seperate stae since 1707./
Also Napoleom' IIIs son was killed while attached to the British Army under Lord Chelmsford which had its ... kicked by the Zulus at Isandiwahla in 1879 when he perished at the hand of the Zulus.
So Imperiliast adventures wee a disaster for Nap III.
 
Joined Feb 2016
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Japan
Prince Napoleon was killed several months after Isandwala, his death being primarily due to his own arrogance and impatience.
 
Joined Mar 2013
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Kirkcaldy, Scotland
Hanlune-ypu mean 'Britain -no 'England'England ceased to exist as a discrete political entity on May 1st 1707 when England and Scotland merged politically into one nation .
May 1st 1707 - 158 years before Napoleon III's Mexican adventure.
Given the Monroe doctrine Maximillan 's regime never had a chance of being tolerated by the USA after the Civil War ended in 1865
Napoleon III never had any luck we his family tried to dabble in the affairs of foreign countries. Witness his son being killed by the Zulus while serving at the Battle of Isandalwana in 1879.
 
Joined Mar 2013
3,386 Posts | 32+
Kirkcaldy, Scotland
Sorry Edric -I should hsve read your post first. -but Napolen III 's son's' arrogance and impatience' was a family traiit Witness his Dad's disastrous moves leading to the 1870 Franco-Prussian war.
 
Joined Dec 2012
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Sorry Edric -I should hsve read your post first. -but Napolen III 's son's' arrogance and impatience' was a family traiit Witness his Dad's disastrous moves leading to the 1870 Franco-Prussian war.
Napoleon I was his uncle I believe
 
Joined Oct 2019
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West Virginia
The US had gotten what it wanted from Mexico in 1845. It wasn't interested in absorbing the more heavily populated areas of the Spanish speaking nation. The US was not naturally a colonial power. At the time it wanted the boundaries it eventually achieved during the administration of James Polk. It later bought the Gadsen Purchase for a railroad at about the same price as it paid for the Mexican Cession.
It would seem that to deny that the USA was a colonial power, one has to negate the legitimacy of the Native peoples being overrun by USA expansion. "Colonialism" does not require that the victims be on another continent, or already have complex state apparatus, as was the case with most of Africa, India, SE Asia, etc.
 
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