Questions about noble families of Southern Italy?

cantthinkofausername93 · Jul 27, 2017

Hello

this is my first post here.

I am currently researching a noble family of an area - specifically a small town in the mountains near the Amalfi coast. Records date back to the 1300s until the family lost it's wealth after World War Two but I have not seen these records. Historically the ruling classes in this town and area were: Etruscans (Greeks?), Romans, Ostrogoths, Lombards, Normans, then it became part of the Kingdom of Naples until Italy was united as one state.

Does anyone know if noble families in the area influenced through subsequent generations of different ruling classes (some invading) of the area throughout their family lineages?

Also as my understanding is, noble families tended to intermarry to individuals/into families of the same status rather than marry into the working class, as this was frowned upon. Can anyone confirm this?

Thank you

AlpinLuke · Jul 27, 2017

Amalfi is not far from Paestum where you can still visit some of the most impressive Greek temples ever ...

So add Greeks to your sequence.

What I don't grasp is exactly what are you looking for ... can you name the small town near Amalfi?

It would help to find out if your noble family is very ancient or recent.

cantthinkofausername93 · Jul 27, 2017

AlpinLuke said:
Amalfi is not far from Paestum where you can still visit some of the most impressive Greek temples ever ...

So add Greeks to your sequence.

What I don't grasp is exactly what are you looking for ... can you name the small town near Amalfi?

It would help to find out if your noble family is very ancient or recent.

The towns are Tramonti and Nocera Superiore.

The earliest records are from the 1300s but its highly likely that this family was noble before then and the 1300s are just when the records began. They lost their importance after World War Two so ranging between ancient and very recent.

What is driving me to this research is me doing an ancestry DNA test. I always wanted to do this because I have noticed since I was younger that I have a lot of physical features that aren't typical of someone of my background as well as a small amount of some that are. I generally don't look like most people where my family comes from. Neither does my mother (who is pale with ginger hair and freckles as are a lot of my relatives) nor my dad. Out of curiosity I finally did the test. I got the following percentages from it:

- 70% Southern Europe with 47% split between Italy and Greece and 23% Iberian Peninsula
- 20 % Western Europe/French and German
- 10 % Scandinavia

This result shocked me. The largest part being Southern European isn't surprising but I wasn't expecting to get 100% European based on what I had seen. Before I did the test I researched results of people from the same region in Italy and most of them scored some Middle Eastern/North African in their tests which I didn't. I shared my results with my family and that is when my dad revealed to me about his grandmother being from a noble family of that particular aforementioned area. Though neither of us know about the family's history in detail as yet, I wonder if this link could provide some of the answers I'm looking for following my DNA test.

AlpinLuke · Jul 27, 2017

Nocera Superiore ...

If you mentioned this town immediately, an Italian would have thought to a long history starting with the Etruscans and reaching the Norman presence [you say Scandinavia ... Normans settled in that area, like in a large part of South Italy, so that Viking DNA is present, still present, in the Southern regions of the peninsula].

But ... what surprises you the most?

cantthinkofausername93 · Jul 27, 2017

AlpinLuke said:
Nocera Superiore ...

If you mentioned this town immediately, an Italian would have thought to a long history starting with the Etruscans and reaching the Norman presence [you say Scandinavia ... Normans settled in that area, like in a large part of South Italy, so that Viking DNA is present, still present, in the Southern regions of the peninsula].

But ... what surprises you the most?

Well the nature of my results and the fact that I have a connection to a noble family. Before doing this test I didn't think of tracing my family tree as I assumed that there would be nothing special. Now my dad has told me that we partially belong to a noble landowning family which did come as a shock. This great grandmother from this noble family also had pale skin, straight blonde hair and blue eyes - don't know if that means anything/is purely subjective though. She died when my dad was 10 so he never got to know her though he has vague memories.

I'm reading information such as more details about the Greek/Roman presence and upon the arrival of various invading groups such as the Norman s who started a feudal system where they were made lords of the land whilst peasants performed the work. The latest account of this family still being important is from one of my grandfather's stories about going to visit a plot of land and an estate owned by his mother's family before World War Two and seeing the tenant farmers working on it. The family also had things that most people didn't at the time - such as a luxury car. I'm just trying to connect the dots.

AlpinLuke · Jul 27, 2017

Many Italian towns and cities preserve annals, very ancient annals. Have you got a clue about the surname of the noble family to which you are connected?

cantthinkofausername93 · Jul 27, 2017

AlpinLuke said:
Many Italian towns and cities preserve annals, very ancient annals. Have you got a clue about the surname of the noble family to which you are connected?

This is something I'll have to ask about as I don't know the specific name right now.

Another interesting story from my dad that I've heard recently is on one occasion when they were driving around that area apparently my grandfather pointed to the ruins of a castle as they drove past and told my dad that his family used to own that castle. It all sounds very interesting.

cantthinkofausername93 · Jul 28, 2017

I do know that the family were apparently historically Lords within the areas of these towns that went through various stages like some of them assuming the position of notaries in the 16th century

martin76 · Jul 31, 2017

cantthinkofausername93 said:
Hello this is my first post here.

I am currently researching a noble family of an area - specifically a small town in the mountains near the Amalfi coast. Records date back to the 1300s until the family lost it's wealth after World War Two but I have not seen these records. Historically the ruling classes in this town and area were: Etruscans (Greeks?), Romans, Ostrogoths, Lombards, Normans, then it became part of the Kingdom of Naples until Italy was united as one state.

Does anyone know if noble families in the area influenced through subsequent generations of different ruling classes (some invading) of the area throughout their family lineages?

Also as my understanding is, noble families tended to intermarry to individuals/into families of the same status rather than marry into the working class, as this was frowned upon. Can anyone confirm this?

Thank you[/QUOTE

Funny you talk aboutr normans and not about the Spaniards (that ruled South Italy for much centuries from the moment aragonese landed in Italy in 13th Century till 1860). But your omission.. of course.. it is not "Innocent carelessness" but a deliverate act to hide the Spanish Hegemony in Italy.

Funny because Amalfi belonged to the S panish Empire... for much centuries, by the way, than to the "Viking" Empire... and funy because the
Duke of Almafi was granted by the King Philip IV (He was not Swedish) to Don Octavio Piccolomini on November 13th 1642 (Archivo General de Simancas where is the records about the Spanish Nobility consisted not only by Iberian, but by well part of the Italian, Valonian, Flamish, Austrian and German nobilities whose tittles came by granted concession signed by the Caholic King).

Almafi is one of the title, as Alvignano, Alvito, Amato, Altavella, etc etc etc.. titles belonged to Southern Italian families granted by the Kings of Spain. As the Duke of Angio, granted by the King on August 12th, 1633 to Giovanni Giocni or the Marquis of Angleria... granted on December, 5th, 1623..

But of course, Italy was ruled by Roman, Etruscan, Ostrogoths, Lombards, Normans but not by the Spaniards... the "Italian nobility" is not matched with the Crown of Spain but with the Crown of Sweden... I agree with you.

maharbbal · Jul 31, 2017

1) If I were you I wouldn't put too much trust in the percentages of the genetic test, they are very complicated to interpret indeed and should be handled carefully. Trying to draw any large conclusion from it, specially regarding so diverse a region as Southern Italy, is very difficult. You're on extremely thin ice and one step away from bona fide crackpot.

2) You're also running the risk of mistaking general rules with individual histories. It is not because the local nobles seldom married peasant women that one of your ancestors did not.

3) Genetic materials tends to go down the social scale pretty fast. Renaissance noblemen spent their time singing the pleasures of pastoral love (i.e. humping a shepherd ....) and prostitution was widespread. Moreover the inheritance system tended to expel regularly a sizeable portion of any generation from the elite circles (i.e. there were more noble babies than noble titles).

4) Some specific problems tend to plague the whole genealogy enquiry process if your archives are not rock solid. So if the local church say that X is the child of Y, then OK, but you cannot assume that a similar name implies an actual connection. For instance, foundling were often given the name of the place they were found in, which also tends to e the name of the local lord. In the interior of the Kingdom of Naples, until the 16th century, the use of family names was not widespread so when came the moment to choose one, some people just picked that of their patron.

5) In Naples and Sicily, a large portion of the nobility was not local and in many cases was not even residing locally. The cases of the princes of Eboli and Melfi are probably the most famous but there are plenty of others. Less well known is the large influx of foreign bourgeois who, through service to the state, gained a noble statute. In the 15th century, that role was often taken by the Pisani merchants, later the Florentine and Genoese financiers also got their hands on a lot of famous titles. These people came late enough and remained rich enough for long enough, for them to mingle only very mildly with commoners.

6) I fill also compel to tell you that simple phenotypic observations are not very usable. The Mediterranean has quite a few groups of blond people (Venetians, Corsicans, etc). If I were you I'd dig into the results given by the testing and try to see some of the tell-tale genes that could be interesting such as those attached to Thalassemia or those attached to lactase persistence.

Naima · Jul 31, 2017

cantthinkofausername93 said:
The towns are Tramonti and Nocera Superiore.

The earliest records are from the 1300s but its highly likely that this family was noble before then and the 1300s are just when the records began. They lost their importance after World War Two so ranging between ancient and very recent.

What is driving me to this research is me doing an ancestry DNA test. I always wanted to do this because I have noticed since I was younger that I have a lot of physical features that aren't typical of someone of my background as well as a small amount of some that are. I generally don't look like most people where my family comes from. Neither does my mother (who is pale with ginger hair and freckles as are a lot of my relatives) nor my dad. Out of curiosity I finally did the test. I got the following percentages from it:

- 70% Southern Europe with 47% split between Italy and Greece and 23% Iberian Peninsula
- 20 % Western Europe/French and German
- 10 % Scandinavia

This result shocked me. The largest part being Southern European isn't surprising but I wasn't expecting to get 100% European based on what I had seen. Before I did the test I researched results of people from the same region in Italy and most of them scored some Middle Eastern/North African in their tests which I didn't. I shared my results with my family and that is when my dad revealed to me about his grandmother being from a noble family of that particular aforementioned area. Though neither of us know about the family's history in detail as yet, I wonder if this link could provide some of the answers I'm looking for following my DNA test.

This seems weird especially when u get results telling u are x % french or y % spanish ... wich us also absurd as there are no spanish or french dna . Also more strange is that ur friends did the test too and are middleastern or northafrican? Unless they come recently with one of the Lybian boats is doubtfull as well. Also dna tests are expensive to do just for fun.

maharbbal · Jul 31, 2017

Naima said:
This seems weird especially when u get results telling u are x % french or y % spanish ... wich us also absurd as there are no spanish or french dna . Also more strange is that ur friends did the test too and are middleastern or northafrican? Unless they come recently with one of the Lybian boats is doubtfull as well. Also dna tests are expensive to do just for fun.

The idea is not that there is a French or an Italian gene, the companies selling this service are not idiots. The point is that there are mixes that are typical of certain regions, a bit like a cocktail recipe can have 40% coke and 60% vodka or 2% coke and 98% vodka (yes, I'd make a dreadful barman). So the components need not to be different for the result to be different.

Regarding North African genes, there is nothing weird about it. Sicily/Southern Italy and Greece are bridges between Europe and Africa. Any iso map will show you that some typical European genes are pretty rare in Southern Itlay (e.g. those related to lactase production) while the profile has often quite a lot in common with Egypt and Tunisia.

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Questions about noble families of Southern Italy?

cantthinkofausername93

AlpinLuke

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AlpinLuke

cantthinkofausername93

AlpinLuke

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maharbbal

Naima

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