Rebuttal to "Africans have no history or civilization"?

Joined Aug 2020
2,833 Posts | 2,454+
Devon, England
Regarding the whole "cut off from Eurasia thing" as is usually brought up with asinine questions such as this:

View attachment 72641

It's a map of how and where historical trade flowed from generally in West Africa to the north and east by Heiko Riemer and Frank Förster produced in 2011 as part of their work "Ancient desert roads: Towards establishing a new field of archaeological research."

While I haven't read the paper myself (due to lacking an attention span leading to my being preoccupied with several other books & papers simultaneously currently) what i do know leads me to believe the map is generally accurate.

Anyone interested can find the paper through ResearchGate with this link (very obviously "sub-saharan" Africa, whatever that even means wasn't cut off from trade)
One of the authors H.Riemer has also published on Academia.edu which might be more accessible for most people

Ancient Desert Roads, H. Riemer and F. Förster
 
Joined Jan 2023
653 Posts | 911+
Barad-dûr
Regarding the whole "cut off from Eurasia thing" as is usually brought up with asinine questions such as this:

View attachment 72641

It's a map of how and where historical trade flowed from generally in West Africa to the north and east by Heiko Riemer and Frank Förster produced in 2011 as part of their work "Ancient desert roads: Towards establishing a new field of archaeological research."

While I haven't read the paper myself (due to lacking an attention span leading to my being preoccupied with several other books & papers simultaneously currently) what i do know leads me to believe the map is generally accurate.

Anyone interested can find the paper through ResearchGate with this link (very obviously "sub-saharan" Africa, whatever that even means wasn't cut off from trade)

The trade routes haven't even been properly researched, the way the overland Silk Road has been retraced and dissected by scholars. There was for example a caravan route between Timbuktu in the West and Zayla in the East, and a maritime route from Mogadishu in the Northeast to Sofala and Madagascar in Southeastern Africa, naturally these arteries of commerce extended from the Horn to Egypt and the rest of North Africa. That's already three-quarters of Africa, so what is the cut-off point for 'pre-contact' when some parts of the continent had extra-continental links since the Neolithic period, and in turn had intercontinental links?

Terms like 'subsaharan Africa' are meaningless when it comes to historic cultural diffusion.
 
Joined Jul 2021
2,391 Posts | 2,067+
The Other Side
The trade routes haven't even been properly researched, the way the overland Silk Road has been retraced and dissected by scholars. There was for example a caravan route between Timbuktu in the West and Zayla in the East, and a maritime route from Mogadishu in the Northeast to Sofala and Madagascar in Southeastern Africa, naturally these arteries of commerce extended from the Horn to Egypt and the rest of North Africa. That's already three-quarters of Africa, so what is the cut-off point for 'pre-contact' when some parts of the continent had extra-continental links since the Neolithic period, and in turn had intercontinental links?

Terms like 'subsaharan Africa' are meaningless when it comes to historic cultural diffusion.

Exactly why I’m opposed to the use of it….it just breeds misconceptions and ill conceived notions
 
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Joined Jun 2014
17,822 Posts | 9,478+
Lisbon, Portugal
True, You didn't. (discussion derailed a bit afterwards, but that's totally @robto 's fault!!!)

Actually my comment was exactly about that: I disagree, the modern ideas of racism have not Colonialist origins. As I already said, the racist ideas predate Colonialism. Nationalism and colonialism only ported them further.

We should never forget the Nationalism when talking about racism, which was (and is) in nothing less instrumental in the development for the development of racist ideas. After all, the most hideous institutionalized racist crimes remain the genocides. And that's the Shoa, the Armenian genocide, the Rwandan ones for example (and we could add Pol Pot (Cambodge), Stalin (Ukraine), aso).

None was about Colonialism.

I'm afraid I have to disagree completely with this, even with the nationalist part.
Nationalism was not invented by colonialism per se, but its very concept is not as ancient as you assume it to be. Overall this is an entire discussion that is not related to the thread.

And we have a different definition of what racism is. For you, it appears that every kind of bigotry against a collective identity is racism. Yes, in common parlance, the term is used like that, but that definition is erroneous and misleading for a historical analysis. I already explained what racism is in previous comments. And the example of Shoa doesn't contradict anything that I said. What I said is that racism as a system gives a lot to colonialism, but that doesn't mean from then on racism was only existing in that context. Ideas can spread to other contexts, and the Holocaust in particular is a clear example of racist ideology and discourse that were articulated in a colonial context traveled back home to Europe, and were adapted to a European ethnnationalist-imperialist context.
 
Joined Jun 2014
17,822 Posts | 9,478+
Lisbon, Portugal
Regarding the whole "cut off from Eurasia thing" as is usually brought up with asinine questions such as this:

View attachment 72641

It's a map of how and where historical trade flowed from generally in West Africa to the north and east by Heiko Riemer and Frank Förster produced in 2011 as part of their work "Ancient desert roads: Towards establishing a new field of archaeological research."

While I haven't read the paper myself (due to lacking an attention span leading to my being preoccupied with several other books & papers simultaneously currently) what i do know leads me to believe the map is generally accurate.

Anyone interested can find the paper through ResearchGate with this link (very obviously "sub-saharan" Africa, whatever that even means wasn't cut off from trade)

Saying that Sub-saharan Africa was isolated from Eurasia is untrue, but the Sahara desert, and probably even more the tropical forests of equatorial Africa, still functioned as frontier spaces nonetheless.
 
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Joined May 2013
1,203 Posts | 274+
SOMEWHERE
The currently prevailing theory of civilization, as has already been brought up, has several holes in it.

One such hole would be; do the Asante and Oyo empires count as civilizations? They didn't write and writing is a core component of what counts as a civilization according to some.

There was writing in the yoruba civilization/s,oyo empire and asante/akan civilization/s.
Some info on that below.

Yoruba language

Literary Yoruba
Literary Yoruba, also known as Standard Yoruba, Yoruba koiné, and common Yoruba, is a separate member of the dialect cluster. It is the written form of the language, the standard variety learned at school, and that is spoken by newsreaders on the radio. Standard Yoruba has its origin in the 1850s, when Samuel A. Crowther, the first native African Anglican bishop, published a Yoruba grammar and started his translation of the Bible. Though for a large part based on the Ọyọ and Ibadan dialects, Standard Yoruba incorporates several features from other dialects. It also has some features peculiar to itself, for example, the simplified vowel harmony system, as well as foreign structures, such as calques from English that originated in early translations of religious works.



Writing systems
The earliest evidence of the presence of Islam and literacy goes back to the 14th century. The earliest documented history of the people, traced to the latter part of the 17th century, was in the Yoruba but in the Arabic script called Ajami. This makes Yoruba one of the oldest African languages with an attested history of Ajami (Cf. Mumin & Versteegh 2014; Hofheinz 2018). However, the oldest extant Yoruba Ajami exemplar is a 19th-century Islamic verse (waka) by Badamasi Agbaji (d. 1895- Hunwick 1995). There are several items of Yoruba Ajami in poetry, personal notes, and esoteric knowledge (Cf. Bang 2019). Nevertheless, Yoruba Ajami remained idiosyncratic and not socially diffused, as no standardized orthography existed. The plethora of dialects and the absence of a central promotional institution, among others, are responsible.


In the 17th century, Yoruba was written in the Ajami script, a form of Arabic script. It is still written in the Ajami writing script in some Islamic circles. Standard Yoruba orthography originated in the early work of Church Mission Society missionaries working among the Aku (Yoruba) of Freetown. One of their informants was Crowther, who later would proceed to work on his native language himself. In early grammar primers and translations of portions of the English Bible, Crowther used the Latin alphabet largely without tone markings. The only diacritic used was a dot below certain vowels to signify their open variants [ɛ] and [ɔ], viz. ⟨ẹ⟩ and ⟨ọ⟩. Over the years, the orthography was revised to represent tone, among other things. In 1875, the Church Missionary Society (CMS) organized a conference on Yoruba Orthography; the standard devised there was the basis for the orthography of the steady flow of religious and educational literature over the next seventy years.



Ajami script

Ajami (Arabic: عجمي‎, ʿajamī) or Ajamiyya (Arabic: عجمية‎, ʿajamiyyah), which comes from the Arabic root for 'foreign' or 'stranger', is an Arabic-derived script used for writing African languages, particularly Songhai, Mandé, Hausa and Swahili, although many other languages are also written using the script, including Mooré, Pulaar, Wolof, and Yoruba. It is an adaptation of the Arabic script to write sounds not found in Standard Arabic. Rather than adding new letters, modifications usually consist of additional dots or lines added to pre-existing letters.




Asante dialect

Writing system

The Ashanti used Adinkra in their daily lives. Adinkra Nkyea is a writing system based on the Adinkra symbols.[citation needed]


Akan languages

Literature

The Akan languages have a rich literature in proverbs, folktales, and traditional drama, as well as a new literature in dramas, short stories, and novels. This literature began to be documented in written form in the late 1800s.


Writing systems of Africa

Adinkra


Latin

One of the challenges in adapting the Latin script to many African languages was the use in those tongues of sounds unfamiliar to Europeans and thus without writing convention they could resort to. Various use was made of letter combinations, modifications, and diacritics to represent such sounds. Some resulting orthographies, such as the Yoruba writing system established by the late 19th century, have remained largely intact.


wikipedia
 
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Joined Jul 2021
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The Other Side
There was writing in the yoruba civilization/s,oyo empire and asante/akan civilization/s.
Some info on that below.

*deleted*

my bad, I jumped the gun in asking

You’re speaking about Ajami, yeah I know of Ajami. I was moreso referring to a uniquely Yoruba or Akan script, not based off of Arabic like Ajami was/is.
 
Joined May 2013
1,203 Posts | 274+
SOMEWHERE
*deleted*

my bad, I jumped the gun in asking

You're speaking about Ajami, yeah I know of Ajami. I was moreso referring to a uniquely Yoruba or Akan script, not based off of Arabic like Ajami was/is.
For the akan/ashanti there is Adinkra symbols.

Writing systems of Africa.
The Ashanti used Adinkra in their daily lives. Adinkra Nkyea is a writing system based on the Adinkra symbols.
 
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Joined Jul 2021
2,391 Posts | 2,067+
The Other Side
For the akan/ashanti there is Adinkra symbols.

Writing systems of Africa.
The Ashanti used Adinkra in their daily lives. Adinkra Nkyea is a writing system based on the Adinkra symbols.
Gotchu thanks 👍🏾
 
Joined Oct 2013
24,148 Posts | 6,119+
Europix
I'm afraid I have to disagree completely with this, even with the nationalist part.
Nationalism was not invented by colonialism per se, but its very concept is not as ancient as you assume it to be. Overall this is an entire discussion that is not related to the thread.

And we have a different definition of what racism is. For you, it appears that every kind of bigotry against a collective identity is racism. Yes, in common parlance, the term is used like that, but that definition is erroneous and misleading for a historical analysis. I already explained what racism is in previous comments. And the example of Shoa doesn't contradict anything that I said. What I said is that racism as a system gives a lot to colonialism, but that doesn't mean from then on racism was only existing in that context. Ideas can spread to other contexts, and the Holocaust in particular is a clear example of racist ideology and discourse that were articulated in a colonial context traveled back home to Europe, and were adapted to a European ethnnationalist-imperialist context.

I'm afraid there's something "lost in translation" here ...

What I said [...]

I wasn't referring to what You said.

"Nationalism was not invented by colonialism per se [...] is not as ancient as you assume it to be. [...]"

It's not what I said. What I said is that Nationalism wasn't less important in developing, structuring ("scientifing") and propagating racist ideas. Ignoring Nationalism's role would be "erroneous and misleading for a historical analysis" in my opinion.

"we have a different definition of what racism is"

IDK, but doesn't matter that much, as my post was responding to "modern ideas of racism have colonialist origins". If You believe that the origins of those ideas do not go further back in time than Colonialism and that Nationalism didn't had its contributions, we will have to agree to disagree.
 
Joined Jul 2024
5 Posts | 6+
usa
I recently learned about a tribe(Haya People) in Tanzania that created a complex iron smelting technique that produced carbon steel independently. Has anyone heard about this?
 
Joined Jun 2014
17,822 Posts | 9,478+
Lisbon, Portugal
I recently learned about a tribe(Haya People) in Tanzania that created a complex iron smelting technique that produced carbon steel independently. Has anyone heard about this?

Weren't they one of the "Lake Kingdoms"?
 
Joined Jul 2024
5 Posts | 6+
usa
Weren't they one of the "Lake Kingdoms"?
I'm not sure, Ive come across different kingdoms they were involved in but I haven't heard of Lake Kingdoms until now. I'll have to do more research
 

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