Rise of Christianity in Republic of China

heylouis · Aug 2, 2017

Senyokbalgul said:
Cultural Revolution: destroyed only certain aspects of culture but not historical connections from China's ancient history.

i don't understand what this means (i don't know what is the "aspects" of culture) . thus i cannot say i agree or disagree with this.

i would agree certain amount of cultural relics which had been stored by private collectors were damaged. i disagree with that the degree of damage is worse than the (illegal and/or "grey") trading of relics in recent years induced by the "cult of money"

i would agree many scholars suffered during culture rev, i disagree their knowledge is lost forever.

i would agree many monks were forcedly resume the secular life. i disagree that it was directed based on administration orders from gov, also i disagree with that the religious life were destroyed for so.

i disagree chinese are significantly different before and after culture rev on the culture.

Senyokbalgul said:
Unrelated, but I find it a bit strange how some Chinese members argue that the Japanese did not destroy Korean historical records to cut historical connections from its ancient history while some (such as you)

i don't remember i argued colony practices during japanese occupation elsewhere for the defense for japanese that they did not destroy history records.
plz remind me with thread title and post number. (I do hope you do it in a timely fashion)

Senyokbalgul · Aug 2, 2017

heylouis said:
i don't understand what this means (i don't know what is the "aspects" of culture) . thus i cannot say i agree or disagree with this.

i would agree many scholars suffered during culture rev, i disagree their knowledge is lost forever.

heylouis said:
i don't remember i argued colony practices during japanese occupation elsewhere for the defense for japanese that they did not destroy history records. plz remind me with thread title and post number.

Some aspects of culture attempted to be removed: closing of religious sites, religion itself, destruction of historical sites and relics, removal of historical non-marxist literature, any customs that hindered China's progression to a Marxist state.

I didn't say that you argued for the defense of the Japanese.
I said that there were other members that did while you didn't.

heylouis · Aug 2, 2017

Senyokbalgul said:
any customs that hindered China's progression to a Marxist state.

only a simple minded person would understand culture rev in this way.
culture rev has the least relationship with marxism at all.
culture rev is deeply caused by chinese culture itself.

Senyokbalgul said:
I didn't say that you argued for the defense of the Japanese.
I said that there were other members that did while you didn't.

ok, sorry i read too quickly

heavenlykaghan · Aug 2, 2017

Neither Sun nor Chiang were strong Christians, Sun only put up a baptization ritual and a Christian funerary ritual to show gratitude to the Christians who helped him. Sun mentioned this clearly in his work 伦敦蒙难记 where he said that
"my confidence in Jesus' teaching became weak after studying science, when I was in school, I often felt the irrationality of Jesus, because I was not satisfied I started reading philosophy books. At the time, my believes lean towards evolution, but I haven't completely abandoned the teaching of Jesus." 予于耶稣教之信心，随研究科学而薄弱。予在学校时，颇感耶稣之不合理，因不安于心，遂至翻阅哲学书籍。当时予之所信，大倾于进化论, 亦未完全将耶稣教弃置也

Sun's wife Song Qingling later wrote that Sun told her he did not really believe in God.

Sun did stress the importance of religion, but evidence shows that it was Buddhism, not Christianity which he felt was the religion that China needed.

According to Sun's grand daughter: Sun told her "Buddhism is the salvation of the world, Buddhist studies is the mother of philosophy, the people cannot lack a religion...Buddhism can cover the shortcomings of law" 祖父曾讲：佛教是救世之仁，佛學是哲學之母，人民不可無宗教之思想，盖教有辅政之功，政有护教之力，政以治心，相得益彰，互不悖逆，总括来说，佛教补法律之不足。」（孙穗芳，我的祖父孙中山下册，台北禾马文化，1995年，页286

If the Republic of China remained, chances are Buddhism, especially Tibetan Buddhism would become the dominant religion in China. The efforts of the Panchan lama and Dai Jitao converted hundreds of thousands of Chinese (coupled with the Buddhist revival movement and the Buddhist influenced New Confucianism growing in China itself). This was in fact one of the major reason that Tibet chose to accept the PRC demands and turned down the CIA's offer to join the anti-communist bloc because they thought, from Panchan's writings, that the ROC was on the verge of becoming Tibetan Buddhist.

Even today, Tibetan Buddhism is growing in China, converting even some party members.
Christianity only sees more growth among rural and suburban areas. You can also bet that the Communist party will rather see more Tibetan Buddhism converts than Christianity.

thegreathoo · Aug 2, 2017

I think there is a good likelihood China will become Roman Catholic. Mainly because bible is not ethnic like Quran and Torah, and the Chinese are receptive to dogmatic rule, hierarchal order. Roman Catholicism fits like a glove.
Some parts of China may resist, and there will be wars.

VHS · Aug 2, 2017

heavenlykaghan said:
Neither Sun nor Chiang were strong Christians, Sun only put up a baptization ritual and a Christian funerary ritual to show gratitude to the Christians who helped him. Sun mentioned this clearly in his work 伦敦蒙难记 where he said that
"my confidence in Jesus' teaching became weak after studying science, when I was in school, I often felt the irrationality of Jesus, because I was not satisfied I started reading philosophy books. At the time, my believes lean towards evolution, but I haven't completely abandoned the teaching of Jesus." 予于耶稣教之信心，随研究科学而薄弱。予在学校时，颇感耶稣之不合理，因不安于心，遂至翻阅哲学书籍。当时予之所信，大倾于进化论, 亦未完全将耶稣教弃置也

Sun's wife Song Qingling later wrote that Sun told her he did not really believe in God.

Sun did stress the importance of religion, but evidence shows that it was Buddhism, not Christianity which he felt was the religion that China needed.

According to Sun's grand daughter: Sun told her "Buddhism is the salvation of the world, Buddhist studies is the mother of philosophy, the people cannot lack a religion...Buddhism can cover the shortcomings of law" 祖父曾讲：佛教是救世之仁，佛學是哲學之母，人民不可無宗教之思想，盖教有辅政之功，政有护教之力，政以治心，相得益彰，互不悖逆，总括来说，佛教补法律之不足。」（孙穗芳，我的祖父孙中山下册，台北禾马文化，1995年，页286

If the Republic of China remained, chances are Buddhism, especially Tibetan Buddhism would become the dominant religion in China. The efforts of the Panchan lama and Dai Jitao converted hundreds of thousands of Chinese (coupled with the Buddhist revival movement and the Buddhist influenced New Confucianism growing in China itself). This was in fact one of the major reason that Tibet chose to accept the PRC demands and turned down the CIA's offer to join the anti-communist bloc because they thought, from Panchan's writings, that the ROC was on the verge of becoming Tibetan Buddhist.

Even today, Tibetan Buddhism is growing in China, converting even some party members.
Christianity only sees more growth among rural and suburban areas. You can also bet that the Communist party will rather see more Tibetan Buddhism converts than Christianity.

Both Buddhism and Daoism witness major revivals in the recent years.
Since China is increasingly urbanized, suburban and rural sections will be less important.

Atsali · Aug 2, 2017

thegreathoo said:
I think there is a good likelihood China will become Roman Catholic. Mainly because bible is not ethnic like Quran and Torah, and the Chinese are receptive to dogmatic rule, hierarchal order. Roman Catholicism fits like a glove.
Some parts of China may resist, and there will be wars.

I'd agree with half of what you're saying. It may become catholic, sure, though from what I've experienced, protestant foreign missionaries seem to have the larger following. That being said, I don't think a majority of Chinese Christians today really follow the faith as we might see it. Now the reason I say that is not because I think many of them become christians with alterior motives (although I do think that), but because churches and the people who work in them, have to sign a statement saying they will put the ccp over their religion (which doesn't usually go over well with the foreign faithful).

I'm not a Christian myself, but I did visit several churches while I lived there, only one of which served mass in English. Oddly enough, there's a lot of pro party rhetoric worked into the Chinese language sermons.

I don't think there will be any religious wars soon, as most of it is still underground and much of that still controlled to some degree by the government.

thegreathoo · Aug 2, 2017

There is a lot of pro state rhetoric in all catholic churches, and similarly in orthodox churches. The two are really one apostolic church, with differences over some rituals.
The key word is apostolic.
In other words, the followers don't need to read the bible. All holy knowledge is passed down through clergy by apostolic succession and to the followers.
In fact it is better they don't read on their own and just get told by the clergy.
Which is how Europe ended up in dark ages, until Martin Luther said forget apostolic dogma and start reading! And people started reading and thinking and writing.
And that's how protestant church is different, everyone is encouraged to read and think.
But, free thinking is not for rveryone!

richiethewanderer · Aug 2, 2017

thegreathoo said:
There is a lot of pro state rhetoric in all catholic churches, and similarly in orthodox churches. The two are really one apostolic church, with differences over some rituals.
The key word is apostolic.
In other words, the followers don't need to read the bible. All holy knowledge is passed down through clergy by apostolic succession and to the followers.
In fact it is better they don't read on their own and just get told by the clergy.
Which is how Europe ended up in dark ages, until Martin Luther said forget apostolic dogma and start reading! And people started reading and thinking and writing.
And that's how protestant church is different, everyone is encouraged to read and think.
But, free thinking is not for rveryone!

Luther was just a tool for petty princes to gain power, the dark ages ended when the Renaissance began and ancient knowledge and new art began to spread out of Catholic Italy. protestantism is all about black clothes and demonizing the other. when every fool can decide the word of God you end up with 33,000+ "true" churches

thegreathoo · Aug 2, 2017

That's precisely the teaching of Luther, every baptized person is holy. So there would be potentially 1.6 billion of churches in China?
That's not their way.

As far as church/princes thing, there are no protestant state churches, maybe Anglican but that's not a Lutheran church.
Roman church is by definition a state church, an imperial church, state religion--Spain, Italy, Poland, Mexico are religious states. Similarly "Russian" "Greek" orthodox churches are also state religions, they carry that from Roman times.

Luther was part of Renaissance, maybe the most important one.

heylouis · Aug 2, 2017

heavenlykaghan said:
This was in fact one of the major reason that Tibet chose to accept the PRC demands and turned down the CIA's offer to join the anti-communist bloc because they thought, from Panchan's writings, that the ROC was on the verge of becoming Tibetan Buddhist.

9th panchan had minor influence to tibet affairs since 13th dalai expelled him. his position is restored after the 17 agreement.
we know the US involved in tibetan affairs approximately after the death of 13th dalai, i.e. around the 1930s. while CIA joined later in 1960s, and CIA actually mainly based in india to remotely control rebels in china.
in the 1947, daza assassinated razheng, since then daza was the true ruler of tibet, though the boy 14th dalai had his title as a "ruler". after the fail of battle of changdu, daza was abolished by the gashag, and they declared dalai to take over the reins. while the former governor of changdu ngapoi was appointed the primary negotiator with central gov.

from all these historical facts, i don't know why there is a story that tibet to join an anti-communism bloc by CIA's offer, and how panchan played a role to convince tibetan (gashag?) that chinese would be converted to tibetan buddhism.

it is unlikely to happen for several points
1 tibetan gashag is not a gov trying to promote tibetan buddhism anyway. like many other govs at that time, this gov was full of all kinds of political games, with methods even including assassination.
2 CIA was not actually there when negotiation between gashag and central gov happened.
3 while 9th pachan had little impact on tibetan affairs due to his conflict with dalai, the 10 pachan is not heard of writing to gashag and not heard of affect tibetan affairs in 1951, because he was an even younger boy than 14th dalai, though he was known to prefer ccp.

Atsali · Aug 2, 2017

thegreathoo said:
There is a lot of pro state rhetoric in all catholic churches, and similarly in orthodox churches. The two are really one apostolic church, with differences over some rituals.
The key word is apostolic.
In other words, the followers don't need to read the bible. All holy knowledge is passed down through clergy by apostolic succession and to the followers.
In fact it is better they don't read on their own and just get told by the clergy.
Which is how Europe ended up in dark ages, until Martin Luther said forget apostolic dogma and start reading! And people started reading and thinking and writing.
And that's how protestant church is different, everyone is encouraged to read and think.
But, free thinking is not for rveryone!

Mate, I don't know if you realize this, but we're not in the dark ages anymore. Having been raised catholic and going to church at least once a week, let me tell you politics and international affairs NEVER came up. Well that's not true, we were lead in a wake for the victims of 9/11.

Catholics and Orthodox are the same? Well, I'm no theologian, so I won't go into this point. Suffice to say, if you think people aren't allowed to read the bible, form their own opinions, or that the church is in bed with the state, I'll take your view on these differences with a big handful of salt.

thegreathoo · Aug 2, 2017

RC and orthodox churches are of same cloth. And Anglican to a large extent too.
They are ritualistic because they are apostolic. You have to pray, attend and listen but not read. On the other hand, reading is #1 for each person in a Protestant church. That is the main difference and it is a huge one!
We are not in the dark ages but we could've been if it wasn't for the reforms so that people "must" learn to read and write, which is why you can read the bible today.

Atsali · Aug 2, 2017

Hoo, I'll leave the discussion about who had a greater hand in the renaissance to you and the other guy.

I'm sure we can agree that an institution a long time ago and an institution now are two different things in practice. Catholics are encouraged to read. The rituals and the clergical hierarchy might be the only real differences between protestantism and catholicism today.

You may think the latter might be a big deal, but the days of feudalism are long gone. It resembles a company much more than it does a political entity these days.

Look, I've been to many denomination churches, I was raised Catholic in a traditionally Catholic country. If me telling you how it works over here isn't to be addressed then I don't know what I can say as just some guy. Anyway, Xi Jin Ping seems to agree with your take on catholicism, so it's gotten an increasingly harder time lately.

thegreathoo · Aug 2, 2017

I dont know about that. Xi Jin Ping and the Pope echo similar sentiments about globalism, they like it.
I think China and it's people are receptive to Roman Catholic church. Hey, they accepted communism and corporatism. When it comes time to solidify the nation under an ideology, it could very well be RCC.
I also think bloodshed and division are likely.

Atsali · Aug 2, 2017

thegreathoo said:
I dont know about that. Xi Jin Ping and the Pope echo similar sentiments about globalism, they like it.
I think China and it's people are receptive to Roman Catholic church. Hey, they accepted communism and corporatism. When it comes time to solidify the nation under an ideology, it could very well be RCC.
I also think bloodshed and division are likely.

It's already unified under one ideology...Communism. You just said this a sentence prior. The CCP isn't globalist, they're protectionists who nick other peoples ideas and profits. They use diplomatic ties solely as a way to subject other nations.

One might classify them as old school imperialists.

heavenlykaghan · Aug 2, 2017

heylouis said:
9th panchan had minor influence to tibet affairs since 13th dalai expelled him. his position is restored after the 17 agreement.
we know the US involved in tibetan affairs approximately after the death of 13th dalai, i.e. around the 1930s. while CIA joined later in 1960s, and CIA actually mainly based in india to remotely control rebels in china.
in the 1947, daza assassinated razheng, since then daza was the true ruler of tibet, though the boy 14th dalai had his title as a "ruler". after the fail of battle of changdu, daza was abolished by the gashag, and they declared dalai to take over the reins. while the former governor of changdu ngapoi was appointed the primary negotiator with central gov.

from all these historical facts, i don't know why there is a story that tibet to join an anti-communism bloc by CIA's offer, and how panchan played a role to convince tibetan (gashag?) that chinese would be converted to tibetan buddhism.

it is unlikely to happen for several points
1 tibetan gashag is not a gov trying to promote tibetan buddhism anyway. like many other govs at that time, this gov was full of all kinds of political games, with methods even including assassination.
2 CIA was not actually there when negotiation between gashag and central gov happened.
3 while 9th pachan had little impact on tibetan affairs due to his conflict with dalai, the 10 pachan is not heard of writing to gashag and not heard of affect tibetan affairs in 1951, because he was an even younger boy than 14th dalai, though he was known to prefer ccp.

There is a story because its an actual historical fact and the documents written by Panchen and brought to Tibet as well as the activities of Chinese Tibetan Buddhists such as Nenghai and Fazun going to Tibet and the image of a Buddhist China they presented has already being studied by scholars like Gray Tuttle.
If you think the Panchen Lama and his entourage had no contact with any high level Tibetan lamas after his escape to China you need to read over the basics and if you think Kashags are not influenced by religion, you are just being unrealistic. Political power isn't the only type of influence a well known incarnation possess.

heylouis · Aug 2, 2017

heavenlykaghan said:
There is a story because its an actual historical fact and the documents written by Panchen and brought to Tibet as well as the activities of Chinese Tibetan Buddhists such as Nenghai and Fazun going to Tibet and the image of a Buddhist China they presented has already being studied by scholars like Gray Tuttle.
If you think the Panchen Lama and his entourage had no contact with any high level Tibetan lamas after his escape to China you need to read over the basics and if you think Kashags are not influenced by religion, you are just being unrealistic. Political power isn't the only type of influence a well known incarnation possess.

you were talking about panchan's religious connection overcomes CIA's offer to let tibet accept PRC (PRC's integration?)
there were things should have been clarified, but not yet:
1. which event exactly it is?
i have to set it post 1949 for the reason of "PRC". also CIA is not active until 1960s.
2. which panchan?
9th died in 1947. 10th was 13 years old in 1951. he was supporting ccp, but he was in no way played it to a degree that gashag accepted PRC because of his writing.
3. both 9th and 10th panchan had been talking to CCP leaders such as mao, they had told him ccp believe in no religion, but tolerate the existence of religion. in no way, panchan's writing could describe a PRC as rising buddhism country. and in no way, even panchan wrote so, the gashag may believe in it.

independently, what you mentioned that panchan had connection with other high level lamas, that gashag had some religious concern etc. could be somewhat not wrong.
but you link them in such a way

This was in fact one of the major reason that Tibet chose to accept the PRC demands and turned down the CIA's offer to join the anti-communist bloc because they thought, from Panchan's writings, that the ROC was on the verge of becoming Tibetan Buddhist.

how does that happen? how could this chain form?

heavenlykaghan · Aug 3, 2017

Sorry Heylious, this is off topic and I do not have time nor do I feel like going over the details here. The 9th Panchen is only one of the major driving forces, but others at the time were also important in projecting the image of a Buddhist China to Tibet. This really is basic knowledge in Tibbetology and I suggest you read Gray Tuttle's book "Tibetan Buddhits in the Making of Modern China." and Fabienne Jagou's "Review of Le 9e Panchen Lama (1883-1937): Enjeu des relations Sino-Tibetaines" for introduory facts on the ROC and Panchen's activities in spreading Chinese propaganda to Tibet.

Senyokbalgul · Aug 3, 2017

thegreathoo said:
Hey, they accepted communism and corporatism. When it comes time to solidify the nation under an ideology, it could very well be RCC.

They adopted communism and corporatism because they believed that the implications of the ideology could be beneficial to the welfare of the state (whether it really was actually beneficial or not is another topic of discussion). On the other hand the adoption of any variant of Christianity, including Catholicism, does not seem to display any benefits to a country in this era and does not seem to show any evidence of sparking progession in any area whatsoever. Thus, unless the Chinese were fools, they would see no need to adopt Christianity as the state religion.

The spread of this illness called Christianity needs to be stopped at all means.

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Rise of Christianity in Republic of China

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