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Joined Jul 2016
885 Posts | 6+
Europe/Switzerland/Ticino
Right and it is quite apart from the capitalis image you can find in Finland or USA...
This other man
Is it Protestant Propaganda? Because never it existed a Mr Santa Klaus in Finland or Netherland...not St Nicholas.. the Greek man...
So History is Written.. with Tales, tales and nothing more than tales without any official record or historical base....
Santa Klaus is Protestant and capitalist propaganda..not real.
Nicholas was a Roman Citizen...
Modern Santa Klaus is COCA COLA propaganda... eh eh,.
Exactly +1 but people really believe Santa Klaus is as you can find in Finland or that he came from North Europe... He was a Greek as Pericles...To say Santa Klaus is from North Europe is as ridiculous as to think Vikings came from Senegal!!!!
Joined Aug 2011
2,002 Posts | 189+
Sweden
What is the idea making him come from Finland? We have no Santa Claus here, we have Jultomten!
Joined Jul 2016
885 Posts | 6+
Europe/Switzerland/Ticino
It is known as a gift bearer and is considered one of the Scandinavian versions of Santa Claus
Joined Nov 2011
6,377 Posts | 6+
Thistleland
Have you never heard of the out of Africa theory? This makes it quite clear that Vikings may indeed have originated from Senegal and furthermore Santa had African ancestors before he turned white, iconic and acceptable.
Joined Aug 2011
2,002 Posts | 189+
Sweden
I know that. I want to keep our semi heathen and darker Jultomten out of reach of the slippery Coca Cola grip. But who placed S C in Finland in the first place? The Finnish tourist bureau?
The Coca Cola influence is on the red and white costume. Santa Klaus is derived from germanic Sankt Nikolaus via dutch in the USA who called him Sinterklass. The traditions associated with him, putting a boot in the window on the night of the 5th Dec. with the children expecting it to be filled with gifts on the 6th Dec. is still celebrated in many parts of northern europe. Coca Cola saw it as a marketing oppostunity and dressed him in their colours.
Now for the bad news - Santa's dead. His tomb is in Bari in the Basilica di San Nicola
Joined Jul 2014
6,743 Posts | 472+
Lower Styria, Slovenia
The confusion is absent here and seems to be present mainly in Germanic language due to Sankt Nikolaus/Saint Nicholas/Sinterklaas etc being the basis for the comercial and nowadays prevailing Santa Claus figure with his Coca Cola red outfit. As for Laponia being home to Santa, I think this has to do with the tradition of "Father Christmas", which I know nothing about though.
Like I said, here the two (Santa Claus and Saint Nicholas) are completely different figures that can't even be confused as their names are very different in Slovene - Miklavž (Saint Nicholas) and Božiček (Santa Claus, literally meaning "Christmas man"). Miklavž has a long presence here, roaming the villages on the night of December 5th with his feared companions, the "parklji" or Krampus, as they're called in German. Božiček/Santa Claus is present here mostly since our independence when capitalism with all its BS around Christmas started flowing in en masse. Otherwise we have even a third guy, called "dedek mraz" (grandpa frost), which was popular in commy times, probably came from Russia (ded moroz). In my childhood I experienced Miklavž, his Krampus helpers and Božiček. Given I'm out of this phase for quite some time now, I respect only Miklavž and praklji for their tradition, while Santa is nothing to me.
Like I said, here the two (Santa Claus and Saint Nicholas) are completely different figures that can't even be confused as their names are very different in Slovene - Miklavž (Saint Nicholas) and Božiček (Santa Claus, literally meaning "Christmas man"). Miklavž has a long presence here, roaming the villages on the night of December 5th with his feared companions, the "parklji" or Krampus, as they're called in German. Božiček/Santa Claus is present here mostly since our independence when capitalism with all its BS around Christmas started flowing in en masse. Otherwise we have even a third guy, called "dedek mraz" (grandpa frost), which was popular in commy times, probably came from Russia (ded moroz). In my childhood I experienced Miklavž, his Krampus helpers and Božiček. Given I'm out of this phase for quite some time now, I respect only Miklavž and praklji for their tradition, while Santa is nothing to me.
Joined Aug 2013
4,921 Posts | 629+
Lorraine tudesque
The Coca Cola influence is on the red and white costume. Santa Klaus is derived from germanic Sankt Nikolaus via dutch in the USA who called him Sinterklass. The traditions associated with him, putting a boot in the window on the night of the 5th Dec. with the children expecting it to be filled with gifts on the 6th Dec. is still celebrated in many parts of northern europe. Coca Cola saw it as a marketing oppostunity and dressed him in their colours.
Now for the bad news - Santa's dead. His tomb is in Bari in the Basilica di San Nicola
But his finger is in Lorraine
But his finger is in Lorraine
Remind me never to shake hands with anyone from Lorraine!
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They are two different festivals. The Bishop of Myra, St Nicholas, is the patron saint of children, hence the giving of presents but it is just a christian saints day.
The modern christmas is a sort of mix between pagan mid winter celebrations and the birth of Christ. In scandinavian countries God Jul is the typical greeting and in England it used to be Yuletide. After conversion, it was Crīstesmæsse. The Anglo Saxon months however were still called Ærra Jéola (Before Yule) or Jiuli and Æftera Jéola (After Yule). Christianity bans false idols and requires 'no other gods before me' so it was difficult to have a formal pagan god for this festival but the concept of Father Christmas might have it's origin in Woden, God of the Forest, in west germanic paganism. In the roman world the festival was a celebration of the unconquered sun and the celebration now is more of the Nativity.
This is what Bede writes in his Reckoning of Time:
"... began the year on the 8th calends of January [25 December], when we celebrate the birth of the Lord. That very night, which we hold so sacred, they used to call by the heathen word Modranecht, that is, "mother's night", because (we suspect) of the ceremonies they enacted all that night."
Coca Cola were very smart to recognise the celebration of the patron saint of children and the giving of presents and tie it in with the christian celebration of the birth of Christ but, as you say, pure commercialism. In early 19th century England, Christmas was still only a minor celebration with many businesses remaining open. It was still a feast, like many Christian feast days, but not a particularly important one.
Santa in Lapland is a desire to see snow at Christmas. It wasn't a problem during the little ice age which included the victorian period but now, betting on a 'white christmas' is the main activity as far as this is concerned. So, with the advent of cheap air travel, we go to see Santa who, as we all know, tends to his reindeer for most of the year.
Joined Jan 2014
1,994 Posts | 19+
Regnum Francorum (orientalium) / Germany
But his finger is in Lorraine
I remember his finger very well. Inside the church there was a shrine and his finger was in an arm reliquary hidden behin a curtain. After inserting a coin the curtain moved away and I saw the Nick's finger. Was it his middle finger?
I must have somewhere a foto from my visit.
There is some controversy about the relics of St. Nicolas:
St. Nicholas Center ::: Relics
Joined Jul 2014
6,743 Posts | 472+
Lower Styria, Slovenia
Depends on the area though. You did a nice job describing the incorporated Germanic traditions (which over the middle ages, the discovery of America, emmigration etc gave rise to the modern commercial christmas). Not so in the Slavic world. There's no mistery in the meaning of boże narodzenie, roždestvo or rizdvo, they all roughly mean "birth" or "god's birth". The names koleda and kaliady I'm not quite sure about as koleda here is a tradition in connection with the holy three kings (3 wise men) on January 6th, it probably means something different in Belorusian and Bulgarian. I don't know what stands behind vánoc and vianoc, for me the interesting thing is the name we and most Balkan Slavs use - božič or božić. It literally means "little god" and indicates the birth of a new god, bearing a big pagan element as the birth of the new sun or Svarožič, son of Svarog. Interestingly in Croatian christmas eve is called badnjak, which translates as a sapling that is burned on a fire that evening, much resembling the Germanic tradition of the "yule log".
Personally, I preffer Easter a lot more with all the old traditions and hidden meanings surrounding it, but that's better left for another thread.
Joined Jan 2014
1,994 Posts | 19+
Regnum Francorum (orientalium) / Germany
I remember his finger very well. Inside the church there was a shrine and his finger was in an arm reliquary hidden behin a curtain. After inserting a coin the curtain moved away and I saw the Nick's finger. Was it his middle finger?
I must have somewhere a foto from my visit.
There is some controversy about the relics of St. Nicolas:
St. Nicholas Center ::: Relics
here it is:
Attachments
Joined Jul 2014
6,743 Posts | 472+
Lower Styria, Slovenia
Wow. I thought the Church could hardly surprise me anymore ... What's next, slot mashines that spit out hostiae for 2 € coins?
Yes, it is highly regional. Even in the germanic linguistic world there are variations and, I suspect, there is an interesting story behind each of them. St Nicholas had helpers, Knecht Ruprecht in Germany, Zwarte Piet in the Netherlands etc, but invariably, their role was to punish the children who had been bad. This is not something one would associate with the transition to a celebration of the birth of Christ. They were later additions to the 5th December ritual though but, the leaving of gifts overnight was on the night of the 5th/6th not the night of the 24th/25th.
The UK is a good example of mixing the two traditions. Here gifts are brought whilst the children are asleep. In the parts of germany that I can remember, they got them during the evening of the 24th.
I am sure the slavic and balkan countries all have their traditions, though I am not familiar with any of the orthodox festivals. I noticed at the house of a school firend of mine who had Czech ancestry, they used a large silver birch branch for decoration. It looked good. His mother told me it was widely used in Czechoslovakia as it was then.
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St Nicholas was apparantly taken off the official list of saints who should be celebrated which the vatican revised in 1969. He is still a saint, just not one who made a fuss over. the UK not being a catholic country, we tend not to realise just how some of the recognised saints are celebrated. This from the Festa di Sant'Oronzo in Lecce. Many saints' days are public holidays.
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