Secret US Navy vs Soviet Airforce battle Korean War

Leftyhunter said:

During the Korean War seven Soviet Mig-15 s were sent to attack several USN vessels off the coast of North Korea . Three USN Panther 9f fighters inferior to the Mig-15 in all areas except turning radius managed to shoot down four Mig-15s and drive the other three off on a thirty five minute ariel dog fight arguably one of the longest in jet aviation history. The US goverment hushed up the dog fight for fifty years due to political considerations so not to 8nflame public opinion. As anyone read the above cited book in the video or knows more about this incident?
Surprisingly enough the Panther 9f did very well against the Mig-15 and by the late 1950s was replaced with the very capable Grumman F- 8 Crusader aka " Mig killer" that was successful against the Migs of the North Vietnamese Air Force.
Leftyhunter

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I haven't looked at the video but Panther vs. MiG — Inside the Cold War Dogfight That Officially Never Happened - MilitaryHistoryNow.com explains the likely reason for keeping it secret was that the Soviet fighters were picked up by a NSA listening team on board the USS Toledo. The information was passed to the carrier, USS Oriskany, from which the F9F-5s were sent to intercept them. It also makes clear that the Soviet losses, which might have been actually six aircraft were mainly down to just one of the pilots: Lieutenant Royce Williams. Four Panthers took off but the aircraft of the flight leader, Lieutenant Royce Williams, developed problems so he and his wingman returned to the carrier before intercepting the MiGs. The other pilot, Lieutenant Junior Grade John Middleton, turned back after the initial encounter as his guns jammed leaving Williams alone to face the remaining 6 MiGs.

Leftyhunter said:

That's incredible! Either Williams was just that good or the Soviet pilots where just that bad. Supposedly some experienced WWII Soviet aces scored kills against F-86 Sabres in North Korea. Outnumbered seven to one Williams should of been easy pickings for the Soviets.
Leftyhunter

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Indeed he should but it's not unique, or even the most one sided dogfight. I think that goes to the Canadian William Barker in 1918 when was faced with about fifty German aircraft although not all became engaged. He claimed six including the reconnaissance aircraft he initially attacked and the rest appear to have thought better of maintaining the fight. He was seriously wounded though.


And I've just noticed the error in my original post. The flight leader who had to abort was Lieutenant Elwood and not, of course, Williams himself.

What was the date of this encounter?

Thanks Leftyhunter. I should have just clicked on the link...

Amazing stories @Leftyhunter, @Philliposeur.

I recently bought this book about Soviet fighter ace Nikolai Sutiagin who flew in a Mig-15 and fought against the Sabres and Meteor jets of the UN. MIG Menace Over Korea: Nicolai Sutiagin, Top Ace Soviet of the Korean War

Leftyhunter said:

I just found out during the Korean War Royal Australian Airforce British made first generation jets Meteors clashed with the Soviet Air Force over North Korea. The RAAF wanted to purchase the North American Aviation F-86 Sabre jet but the USAF had so many orders that NAA couldn't fill the Australian orders until 1954 so the RAAF had to purchase the first generation Meteors which was used in WWII to intercept V1 rockets.
The Mig-15 was a second generation jet fighter the first generation Soviet jet fighter was the Mig-8. The Mig-15 was a superior fighter but the RAAF did manage to make kill confirmed by post cold war unveiling of Soviet military archives .
Leftyhunter

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I didn't know the Australians asked for US built F-86s although I've also heard that they asked Britain to rush the Hawker Hunter into production. I'm going from memory but this was turned down due to the fact that the Hunter was still in development and hadn't even entered RAF service - the second prototype only flew for the first time in 1952.

None of the Sabres used by the RAAF were built by NAA though as CAC (Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation) acquired a licence to build them in 1951 and it took them until 1954 before they could supply them. Much of the reason for the delay was that significant changes were made to the F-86F's airframe to accommodate the more powerful Rolls Royce Avon engines which they used instead of the General Electric J47s of the original. The armament was also changed from six .50 MGs to two 30mm ADEN cannons.

It is no secret actually. Wiki got it covered.

MiG Alley - Wikipedia

Boyd developed his OODA loop based on analysis of the kill ratios between Sabres and Mig-15s in Korea. On paper, the Mig-15 is at least on par with an F-86, if not superior, yet it suffered kill ratios > 8:1. Why?

As Boyd detailed, there's more to aerial combat than the capability of the aircraft. Obviously, pilot training is a factor, but one would think that the Soviets were not sending noobs to Korea. Well, the F-86 had much better cockpit visibility for the pilot. It also had hydraulic flight controls vs the traditional cable system used in the Mig. Apparently the Mig was quite physically demanding to fly and pilot fatigue could quickly become a factor.

The tl;dr for the OODA loop is that pilots (or squads, or ships, or armies) go through a decision cycle during combat wherein they observe the enemy, orient themselves and the enemy in the combat space, decide on a course of action, and then act on it. This cycle then repeats as a pilot sees the reaction of the enemy to their own actions. Whoever can execute a cycle faster has an advantage. This was called "getting inside your enemies decision loop". If you can consistently execute cycles faster, then you can reach a condition where the enemy is reacting to old cycles and they begin to become overwhelmed.

The Sabre had advantages over the Mig that were difficult to record on paper, but which absolutely enabled F-86 pilots to execute cycles faster than their opponents.

Boyd's thinking later influenced the "shock and awe" campaign in Desert Storm, and US Marine Corp doctrine is heavily influenced by his thinking. Boyd also came up with Energy-Maneuver theory/modelling for aircraft, and was basically able to prove the F-111 was going to be inferior to existing Soviet designs before it even left the drawing board. His "fighter mafia" also heavily influenced the development of the F-16 and F-18. Smart guy.

DingBat said:

Boyd developed his OODA loop based on analysis of the kill ratios between Sabres and Mig-15s in Korea. On paper, the Mig-15 is at least on par with an F-86, if not superior, yet it suffered kill ratios > 8:1. Why?

As Boyd detailed, there's more to aerial combat than the capability of the aircraft. Obviously, pilot training is a factor, but one would think that the Soviets were not sending noobs to Korea. Well, the F-86 had much better cockpit visibility for the pilot. It also had hydraulic flight controls vs the traditional cable system used in the Mig. Apparently the Mig was quite physically demanding to fly and pilot fatigue could quickly become a factor.

The tl;dr for the OODA loop is that pilots (or squads, or ships, or armies) go through a decision cycle during combat wherein they observe the enemy, orient themselves and the enemy in the combat space, decide on a course of action, and then act on it. This cycle then repeats as a pilot sees the reaction of the enemy to their own actions. Whoever can execute a cycle faster has an advantage. This was called "getting inside your enemies decision loop". If you can consistently execute cycles faster, then you can reach a condition where the enemy is reacting to old cycles and they begin to become overwhelmed.

The Sabre had advantages over the Mig that were difficult to record on paper, but which absolutely enabled F-86 pilots to execute cycles faster than their opponents.

Boyd's thinking later influenced the "shock and awe" campaign in Desert Storm, and US Marine Corp doctrine is heavily influenced by his thinking. Boyd also came up with Energy-Maneuver theory/modelling for aircraft, and was basically able to prove the F-111 was going to be inferior to existing Soviet designs before it even left the drawing board. His "fighter mafia" also heavily influenced the development of the F-16 and F-18. Smart guy.

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It can be sincerely doubted if Western pilots really achieved 8:1 kill ratio against MiG 15s cause Soviet sources report far lower losses also it is not illogical to believe that pilots from both sides made exaggerated claims as happened in any war.

In any case, most of the MiGs downed were probably Chinese and North Korean. I have read reports of Chinese pilots ejecting as soon as F-86s arrived. However MiG 15 was not as good as F-86 starting from E variants.

One Russian TV series was showing Soviet pilots were getting kills but suddenly losses skyrocketed, later from a downed F-86, it was found that new F-86 was of E variant which was significantly more advanced than A, B, C and D variants.

But I think, given MiG 15's lack of pressurized cockpit, ejection seat, radar guided gunsight, even A, B, C and D variants of F-86 were more capable than MiG 15s.

SSDD said:

It can be sincerely doubted if Western pilots really achieved 8:1 kill ratio against MiG 15s cause Soviet sources report far lower losses also it is not illogical to believe that pilots from both sides made exaggerated claims as happened in any war.

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Given all pilots tendency to overstate kills, sure. At the same time, the Soviets bias towards lower numbers is also obvious. So, lets take the middle case. What would that be? Probably still statistically significant.

DingBat said:

Given all pilots tendency to overstate kills, sure. At the same time, the Soviets bias towards lower numbers is also obvious. So, lets take the middle case. What would that be? Probably still statistically significant.

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Soviet archival data said they lost total 335 MiGs from all causes over Korea. Chinese lost 224 MiGs and North Koreans 100. So obviously more MiGs were lost but only about half of them were Soviet piloted and not all of them were from combat either. Also It was not possible to determine nationality of enemy pilot from another plane in midst of combat.

According to Seydov*, 64th Fighter Air Corps lost 86 MiG-15 total in 1953.

January
Aircraft losses: 8, Pilot losses: 2
February
Aircraft losses: 9, Pilot losses: 1
March
Aircraft losses: 11, Pilot losses: 4
April
Aircraft losses: 7, Pilot losses: 4
May
Aircraft losses: 12, Pilot losses: 4
June
Aircraft losses: 26, Pilot losses: 11
July
Aircraft losses: 13, Pilot losses: 4
---------------
Total
Aircraft losses 86, Pilot losses 30

*Igor Seidov : " Red devils in the sky of Korea ". Soviet aviation in the war 1950-1953. Chronicle of air battles; Publishing House · Eksmo, 2007;

January 1953

January 14
Senior Lieutenant Sokolov (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 over Supung Lake. The pilot landed on the ice of the reservoir , but the ice broke and the plane sank. The pilot died.
Senior Lieutenant Ilyashenko (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 over Supung Lake. The pilot ejected and survived.

January 15
Senior Lieutenant Vitaly Mishchenko (726th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down (presumably F-86). The pilot died.

January 19
Captain Andrushchenko (578th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Engine failure on takeoff. The pilot survived.

January 23
Senior Lieutenant Karpov (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86 piloted by Lieutenant Colonel Edwin Heller, commander of the 16th Air Squadron. The pilot and survived.

January 24
Senior Lieutenant Zemtsov (578th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Engine failure in flight. The pilot ejected and survived.

January 27
Senior Lieutenant Udovikov (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Loss of orientation. Forced landing on the Liaodong Peninsula (Xuzhou area). The pilot survived.

January 28
Senior Lieutenant Senyutkin B.G. (535th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Loss of orientation when flying in snow. Forced landing near the city of Andong . The pilot injured his spine.

February 1953

February 7
Lieutenant Demyanov (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86. The pilot ejected and survived.

February 15
Senior Lieutenant Masleev (535th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86, the pilot landed on the fuselage outside the Dapu runway . The pilot survived.

February 17
Captain Zelensky (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86. The pilot ejected and survived.

February 19
Senior Lieutenant Sokolov (535th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86, in the area of Supung Lake, forced landing. The pilot died.

February 21
Major Babich S.I. (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86 in the Anshu area (during a raid to the Sea of Japan ). The pilot ejected and survived.
Senior Lieutenant Smirnov (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 in the Anshu area (during a raid to the Sea of Japan). The pilot ejected and survived.

February 25
Lieutenant Colonel Akimov (535th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 in the area of Supkhun hydroelectric power station. The pilot ejected and survived.
Senior Lieutenant Zabolotny (535th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 in the area of Supkhun hydroelectric power station. The pilot ejected and survived.

End of February
Senior Lieutenant Popov (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). An accident while testing the new Kuandian airfield . MiG-15 burned down on the runway. The pilot survived.

March 1953

March 8
Seliververstov (commander of the 1st air squadron of the 878th Fighter Aviation Regiment). A group of F-86s tried to squeeze him into a 'box'. The pilot survived.
Senior Lieutenant Chepusov (878th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86, collided with a hill during landing. The pilot died.

March 9
Senior Lieutenant Rochikashvili (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). The F-86 was shot down, while landing it jumped over the runway and crashed into the parapet. The pilot died.
Senior Lieutenant Kuan (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Under the attack of the F-86, he fell into a tailspin at low altitude. The pilot isdied.

March 13
Senior Lieutenant Khristoforov (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86. The pilot ejected and survived.

March 14
Lieutenant Stroilov (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Collided with the leader and beat off the tail. The pilot ejected and survived.
Senior Lieutenant Odintsov (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Cut off the tail as a result of the collision. The pilot ejected but injured his spine.
Senior Lieutenant Sedashev (518th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86, Miaogou airfield runway crash . The pilot died.

March 29
Senior Lieutenant Kabanov (535th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 near Supung Lake. The pilot ejected and survived.
Senior Lieutenant Lapygin (535th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 near Supung Lake. The pilot ejected and survived.
Captain Ilinykh (781st Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 . The pilot ejected and survived.

April 1953

April, 4
Senior Lieutenant Motanahi (726th Fighter Aviation Regiment). As a result of the overload,the pilot ejected and survived.

April 5
Senior Lieutenant Shkurko (298th NFighter Aviation Regiment). Night crash landing at Andong airfield. The pilot died (the only loss of the regiment).

April 7
Senior Lieutenant Popov (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86. The pilot ejected and survived.

April 12
Captain Fedorets (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86. The pilot ejected and survived.
Senior Lieutenant Markov (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86 in the Daeguangdong area . The pilot died.

April 22
Captain Lazarev (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86. The pilot died.

April 30
Senior Lieutenant Kislukhin (676th Fighter Aviation Regiment). During takeoff from the Dapu airfield, the hanging fuel tank came off. The pilot died.

May 1953

May 13
Captain Batrakov (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86 in the Anshu area. The pilot ejected and survived.
Senior Lieutenant Kamenshchikov (781st Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86 in the Anshu area. The pilot died.

May 14
Senior Lieutenant Kolesnikov (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86 in the Suphun area. The pilot ejected and survived.
Senior Lieutenant Zabolotny (535th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86 in the Suphun area. The pilot ejected and survived.
Senior Lieutenant Borisov (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Ran out of fuel on the way back from the Suphun area. The pilot ejected and survived.

May 15
Senior Lieutenant Krivich (535th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86. The pilot ejected and survived.

May 18
Senior Lieutenant Rybakov (518th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86 in the Suphun area. The pilot died.
Captain Stadnik (518th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86 in the Suphun area. The pilot ejected and survived.

May 23
Captain Grishenchuk (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86 while landing at Andong. The pilot died.
Senior Lieutenant Titenko (535th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86 on approach to Miaogou. The pilot ejected and survived.

May 29
Senior Lieutenant Pronin (415th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86. The pilot died.
Senior Lieutenant Kuprin (415th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86. The pilot ejected and survived.

June 1953

June 1
Senior Lieutenant Timoshin (781st Fighter Aviation Regiment ). Shot down by an F-86 in the Hichen-Anshu area. The pilot died.

June 5
Senior Lieutenant Krasnikov (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). The plane crashed after running out of fuel due to loss of orientation. The pilot ejected and survived.
Senior Lieutenant Solovyov (676th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 near Supung Lake. The pilot ejected and survived.
Senior Lieutenant Tsarenko (781st Fighter Aviation Regiment ). Shot down by F-86 during takeoff from Dapu airfield. The pilot died as a result of an unsuccessful ejection.
Senior Lieutenant Kucherenkon (781st Fighter Aviation Regiment ). Shot down by F-86 during takeoff from Dapu airfield. The pilot ejected and survived.
Senior Lieutenant Pushkarev (781st Fighter Aviation Regiment ). Shot down by F-86. The pilot is dead.

June 7
Senior Lieutenant Dorokhov (535th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 during takeoff from Dapu airfield. The pilot died
Captain Blinov (535th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 during takeoff from Dapu airfield. The pilot survived.

June 10
Captain Balandin (781st Fighter Aviation Regiment ). Shot down by an F-86 while landing at the Dapu airfield. The pilot ejected and survived.

June 13
Captain Tabakov (676th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86 in the Shiojio area. The pilot ejected and survived.
Senior Lieutenant Borisov (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Crashed on landing at Andong airfield. The pilot died.

June 14
Senior Lieutenant Pimenov (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86. The pilot ejected and survived.

June 16
Potapov (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 near Supung Lake. The pilot died as a result of an unsuccessful ejection.

June 18
Lieutenant Kriklivets (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 near Supung Lake. The pilot ejected and died by drowning in the reservoir!!!
Lieutenant Korshunov (518th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 near Supung Lake. The pilot died
Lieutenant Pletnev (676th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 near Supung Lake. The damaged aircraft crashed on landing at Andong airfield. The pilot survived.

June 19
Senior Lieutenant Kashin (878th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86 in the Dougondong area. The pilot ejected and survived.
Senior Lieutenant Averyanov (878th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86 in the Dougondong area. The pilot ejected and survived.
Senior Lieutenant Kulaev (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). The pilot died during a training flight.

June 22
Senior Lieutenant Pustovarov (676th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86, landing accident. The pilot survived.
Captain Karpov (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Landing accident. The pilot survived.
Captain Khristoforov (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86. The pilot ejected and survived.

June 24
Captain Alikin (415th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86. In battle, he covered the leading commander of the regiment. The pilot died.

June 27
Major Marchenko, regiment commander (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 during takeoff from Andong airfield. The pilot ejected and survived.

June 29
Lieutenant Colonel Gorbunov, regiment commander (676th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 after takeoff from Andong airfield. The pilot ejected and survived.

June 30
Senior Lieutenant Levchatov (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86. The pilot ejected and survived.

July 1953

July 4
Lieutenant Kolpakov (535th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Crash during a training flight. The pilot died

July 11
Senior Lieutenant Abidin (518th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by an F-86 on landing in the Miaogou area. The pilot ejected and survived.

July 12
Captain Belov (781st Fighter Aviation Regiment ). Shot down by an F-86 at an altitude of 15 m on landing at the Andong airfield. The pilot died.
Lieutenant Galin (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 in the Andong Gishu area. The pilot died as a result of an unsuccessful ejection.
Borisov (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Fire in the plane upon landing at the Dapu airfield. The pilot survived.
Senior Lieutenant Germanov (224th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 in the Dapu area. The pilot ejected and survived.
Senior Lieutenant Malevsky (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Crashed after running out of fuel as a result of a battle in the Mukden area. The pilot ejected and survived.

July 15
Senior Lieutenant Gagarinov (535th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 near the airfield. The plane crashed on landing. The pilot survived.

July 16
Senior Lieutenant Shishkin (726th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86. The pilot ejected and survived.
Senior Lieutenant Pavlov (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 near Supung Lake. The pilot ejected and survived.

July 18
Senior Lieutenant Potibenko (535th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 in the Andong Gishu area. The pilot ejected and survived.

July 19
Lieutenant Gerasimchuk (913th Fighter Aviation Regiment). Shot down by F-86 near Supung Lake. The pilot died as a result of an unsuccessful ejection.
Senior Lieutenant Lugovtsov (781st Fighter Aviation Regiment ). Shot down by F-86. The pilot ejected and survived.