Semifinals: (2)Napoleon Bonaparte vs (3)Alexander the Great

Better General?


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Joined Nov 2010
7,886 Posts | 3+
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In response to Thessalonian's pictures:

arc-de-triomphe.jpg

^^ I believe this is a response, no?
 
Joined Jul 2009
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You seem to be doing a lot more than that in here regarding Napoleon.

Well, I am saying that the Russian invasion had a strategical motive whereas the Gedrosian desert adventure had none.

This comparison is not so much about character but more as a mean to evaluate the extent and relevance of both's blunders.
 
Joined Apr 2010
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not so sure about that, regimes would have come and go but france would have survived
Doubtful, GB and Austria wanted to divide it into three/four different nations. France would not have survived had Napoleon not reformed the state. RoT was threatening monarchies everywhere and they would rather see France destroyed. You can see this later after France's defeat in that the powers of Europe again wanted to divide France, Metternich prevented that.
 
Joined May 2008
2,728 Posts | 6+
@Falcon: As far as I know, there are no Napoleon fanboys here.

Don't speak for anyone else, and by the way you defend him even in the most obvious blunders of his, it doesn't look on the outside that you are not one either.

We are just arguing that he was a superior commander to one of the most overrated generals in history..

That's where I differ with you, Alexander accomplished with his command what Napoleon never did, and neither do I think he is overated to the point that he doesn't deserve to be, unlike others, and I don't refer to just Napoleon here.

Napoleon is not even one of my ten favorite generals, let alone historical figure. However, it is pretty clear that Alexander is your man.

If he is not one of your best ten generals then we have gone the wrong path in here and indicated the wrong man for the final.

If I admire Alexander is not so much for the creation of his empire as for the creation of the Hellenistic civilization that lasted for many centuries well into the Middle Ages, and responsible for a second empire created out of this civilization, which he could not foresee at his time.
The Byzantine Empire.
 
Joined Apr 2010
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Alexander did not create the Hellenic Civilization. He wasn't God. He didn't take a bunch of people, changed their DNA, called them greeks, taught them greek, gave birth to city states, later conquered them under his father, and began a conquest. The silly argument that France was around before Napoleon also applies to Alexander. Alexander didn't make Macedonia, or Greece, he inherited it. Napoleon earned his keep, he didn't have a dad that said "son of Hercules, you will be a God here is your throne."

Alexander the Great was Alexander III, he was not the first born Greek. Stop treating him as such.

Do not say Byzantium was around because of Alexander, that's just fallacious speculation.
 
Joined May 2008
2,728 Posts | 6+
Doubtful, GB and Austria wanted to divide it into three/four different nations. France would not have survived had Napoleon not reformed the state. RoT was threatening monarchies everywhere and they would rather see France destroyed. You can see this later after France's defeat in that the powers of Europe again wanted to divide France, Metternich prevented that.

Any ideas that anyone may have had doesn't necessarilly mean that they become realities and are implemented.
France would have survived without Napoleon in one way or another regardless.
Metternich was one of the least trustworty politicians of Europe in his time.
Whom are you refering as RoT?

Alexander did not create the Hellenic Civilization.

No he didn't create the Hellenic civilization, that was done by others.
He was responsinsible for creating the Hellenistic civilization.

He wasn't God. He didn't take a bunch of people, changed their DNA, called them greeks, taught them greek, gave birth to city states, later conquered them under his father, and began a conquest..

No, he didn't create the Greeks or their DNA or taught them Greek, neither did he create the city states, all that was in place and done before him;
but he did conquer the rest of the Greeks under his father and by himself too, without him.

The silly argument that France was around before Napoleon also applies to Alexander. Alexander didn't make Macedonia, or Greece, he inherited it. Napoleon earned his keep, he didn't have a dad that said "son of Hercules, you will be a God here is your throne." .

France was around not only before Napoleon but also after him, samething wirh Alexander and Greece!
Who ever said any different?

Alexander the Great was Alexander III, he was not the first born Greek. Stop treating him as such..

He wasn't the first neither the last Greek, as I told you above nobody said any different.
I don't know what purpose is served saying these things.

Do not say Byzantium was around because of Alexander, that's just fallacious speculation.

Not fallacious at all!
The Byzantine (GREEK) empire was able to prevail over the remnant Eastern Roman empire due to the overpowering and overwhelming existence of the Hellenistic civilization which started from the time of Alexander the Great.
That's why he has been called the GREAT, he accomplished what no other individual in the history of mankind ever did.
 
Joined Apr 2010
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Any ideas that anyone may have had doesn't necessarilly mean that they become realities and are implemented.
France would have survived without Napoleon in one way or another regardless.
Metternich was one of the least trustworty politicians of Europe in his time.
Whom are you refering as RoT?
Actually, when they are planning on doing something and it get's recorded in the history books it happens unless something like a man appears out of nowhere, instills pride in France, and goes on a conquering spree. And later when they return to this idea it further cements it.

Metternich was one of the greatest politicians of his time, but don't take my word for it:
He was one of the most important diplomats of his era.He was a major figure in the negotiations before and during the Congress of Vienna and is considered both a paragon of foreign-policy management and a major figure in the development of diplomatic praxis. He was the archetypal practitioner of 19th-century diplomatic realism, being deeply rooted in the postulates of the balance of power {see Realpolitik}.

No he didn't create the Hellenic civilization, that was done by others.
He was responsinsible for creating the Hellenistic civilization.
Tell me where you see the contradiction.

but he did conquer the rest of the Greeks under his father and by himself too, without him.
The achievements of his father, there is no guarantee that he couldn't have done it without Alexander.

Who ever said any different?
It was inferred in a post pages ago that irked me.

I don't know what purpose is served saying these things.
Alexander didn't build his empire, he merely expanded it.

The Byzantine (GREEK) empire was able to prevail over the remnant Eastern Roman empire due to the overpowering and overwhelming existence of the Hellenistic civilization which started from the time of Alexander the Great.
You do know that the Byzantine Empire was the Eastern Roman Empire. There was no prevailing, they were the exact same thing. Furthermore, it didn't start out Greek, it started out Latin. It was only after it lost most of it's lands to the Caliphate that the greek lands had a voice, Greek. Even beyond that there was very little changed within the structure of the Empire apart from a language change and guess what? Most of the people at the top still spoke Latin in order to communicate with people from the West. So... wrong

That's why he has been called the GREAT, he accomplished what no other individual in the history of mankind ever did.
Wrong. Name one thing that he did that no one else did.
 
Joined May 2008
2,728 Posts | 6+
Tell me where you see the contradiction..

There is a difference between Hellenic and Hellenistic.
I thought you knew that.

The achievements of his father, there is no guarantee that he couldn't have done it without Alexander.

Neither there is any guarantee that Alexander wouldn't or couldn't have done them without his father.

It was inferred in a post pages ago that irked me. .

I have no way of knowing which post you might be refering to.

Alexander didn't build his empire, he merely expanded it..

How could Alexander expand his empire when he started not having one.
He created the empire after he started his expedition into Asia.

You do know that the Byzantine Empire was the Eastern Roman Empire. There was no prevailing, they were the exact same thing. .

It started out as the Eastern Roman empire but soon in its 11 century history it was transformed into the GREEK empire of the Middle Ages.
There was plenty of prevailing and that's why the transformation took place. There is a big difference between the ancient times Roman regime and the transformed Greek empire of the Middle Ages.

Furthermore, it didn't start out Greek, it started out Latin. It was only after it lost most of it's lands to the Caliphate that the greek lands had a voice, Greek. .

The Greek prevalence was overwhelmingly complete and had taken place long before their dealings with the Chaliphate in the 7th century; actually it was complete when they had dealings with the Persians in the previous century by the time of Maurice, and that's why the were known and called by the Persians and later on by the Arabs as "The Empire of the Greeks".

Even beyond that there was very little changed within the structure of the Empire apart from a language change and guess what? .

It started out as Latin in the 4th century, but by the 6th century even the ruling class including the emperors were speaking Greek as their first language, that is not to say that even before that they didn't.
The culture was Greek (Hellenistic), the language was Greek, the architecture, art was Greek even the religion did not resemble the Western practices.

Besides as you may well know the so called Eastern Roman empire was not Eastern any more by the 5th century (476 AD), and certainly not Roman any more by the end of the of the 6th century.

Most of the people at the top still spoke Latin in order to communicate with people from the West. So... wrong.

Maybe as a second language, but you may also know that the people of the West spoke Greek because it was the lingua franca of the time; that was true also from the time of the old Roman empire where most of the educated upper clas of the Romans spoke Greek, I guess you might say it was a prerequisite for any distinguished western citizen to have Greek paideia (education), and that was to their credit.

Don't get me wrong I have great appreciation for the Romans too!

Wrong. Name one thing that he did that no one else did.

I already did, the Hellenistic civilization that lasted for many centuries and into the middle ages.

Again don't missundestand me, I do appreciate Napoleon; I just don't think he was just as great or accomplished as much as Alexander did.

Actually, when they are planning on doing something and it get's recorded in the history books it happens unless something like a man appears out of nowhere, instills pride in France, and goes on a conquering spree. And later when they return to this idea it further cements it. :

In politics a lot of things are being said or planned, but what really takes place eventually could be a very different thing.

A man can appear out of nowhere and can inspire the great masses of any country and have everybody believe in him, only to turn out in the end to be to their detriment.
It has happened a lot in history in the past.

Metternich was one of the greatest politicians of his time, but don't take my word for it:

He was also very conservative and reactionary that burried the hopes and aspirations of a lot of Europeans.
 
Joined Apr 2010
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Neither there is any guarantee that Alexander wouldn't or couldn't have done them without his father.
Without Philip, there would be no Alexander.

How could Alexander expand his empire when he started not having one.
You cannot be serious.

Alexander the Great, Alexander III of Macedon, did not inherit Macedonia and the Empire his father created in Greece? I have no time for such nonsense.

He created the empire after he started his expedition into Asia.
So the United States of America didn't form under the continental congress, but only formed after Thomas Jefferson signed the Louisiana Purchase, with that being the first act of expansion on the U.S.'s part. That is a like analogy. Alexander's Empire wasn't created when he defeated Persia, it just changed when he defeated Persia. He wasn't a man without a Kingdom, he was Alexander III of Macedonia.

It started out as the Eastern Roman empire but soon in its 11 century history it was transformed into the GREEK empire of the Middle Ages.
It spoke Greek, and the people it ruled were Greek, and most of it's administration was run by Greeks, it was even located in Greece, but the Eastern Roman Empire was Roman in every conceivable way. Just because Latin was exchanged for Greek doesn't mean it's no longer Roman. Language and location does not define a nation, it only adds a few words in it's description.

There was plenty of prevailing and that's why the transformation took place. There is a big difference between the ancient times Roman regime and the transformed Greek empire of the Middle Ages.
Name them. There will be less than ten. "Plenty" should be more than ten.

The Greek prevalence was overwhelmingly complete and had taken place long before their dealings with the Chaliphate in the 7th century; actually it was complete when they had dealings with the Persians in the previous century by the time of Maurice, and that's why the were known and called by the Persians and later on by the Arabs as "The Empire of the Greeks".
Not quite, if you are going to say "Long before the Caliphate in the 7th century", then you really shouldn't be referring to events taking place in the 7th century just a few decades before hand. It's quite misleading. Furthermore, The Roman Empire still controlled most of Africa, parts of Iberia, Southern Italy, Sicily, Sardinia, the Bealaries, Dalmatia, and other lands. Hardly Greek. And they would gain back most of those lands in Egypt, Syria, and so on. Calling the Byzantine Empire Greek because Khosrau II pushed back the Romans is foolish.

It started out as Latin in the 4th century, but by the 6th century even the ruling class including the emperors were speaking Greek as their first language, that is not to say that even before that they didn't.
You are going to try to convince me that the ruling class, in the year 500 A.D., in the Eastern Roman Empire spoke Greek? Provide a source.

The culture was Greek (Hellenistic), the language was Greek, the architecture, art was Greek even the religion did not resemble the Western practices.
No, it wasn't Hellenistic. Hellenistic becomes obsolete in the 150s B.C.

Hellenic, as in, Greek, sure. They spoke Greek. But there is nothing to suggest that they behaved as anything other than Roman and that the cultural changes were anything but normal changes that occur through the progression of time. The Culture was still distinctly Roman. The people inside Greece didn't call themselves "greek" they called themselves "Roman", that should be enough for you to say they were anything but Greek, they just spoke it. In the same way that a man who speaks the English Language isn't automatically from England.

Besides as you may well know the so called Eastern Roman empire was not Eastern any more by the 5th century (476 AD), and certainly not Roman any more by the end of the of the 6th century.
Not worth responding to...

Maybe as a second language, but you may also know that the people of the West spoke Greek because it was the lingua franca of the time; that was true also from the time of the old Roman empire where most of the educated upper clas of the Romans spoke Greek, I guess you might say it was a prerequisite for any distinguished western citizen to have Greek paideia (education), and that was to their credit.
Maybe in the B.C.s, but after that Latin was the Lingua Franca. And it remained as such until the fall of the Clergy and the rise of countries.

I already did, the Hellenistic civilization that lasted for many centuries and into the middle ages.
No.
Hellenistic civilization (Greek civilization beyond classical Greeks) represents the zenith of Greek influence in the ancient world from 323 BC to about 146 BC (or arguably as late as 30 BC). Hellenistic civilization was preceded by the Classical Hellenic period, and followed by Roman rule over the areas Greece had earlier dominated – even though much of Greek culture, religion, art and literature still permeated Rome's rule, whose elite spoke and read Greek as well as Latin.
Romans spoke Greek before Greece was conquered. After that, Romans spoke Latin because Roman education became better and Greek became something of a regional and maritime language that slowly fell into obscurity until Western Rome fell, and the Byzantines adopted the language because all the lands they had spoke it.

And Napoleon had an era named after him too, it was called the Napoleonic Era. His era uses his name, not his people.

He was also very conservative and reactionary that burried the hopes and aspirations of a lot of Europeans.
Um... no. Where did you get that idea?
 
Joined Sep 2010
10,810 Posts | 50+
Serbia
Seriously, Macedonian pezhetairoi compared to Persian infantry is like American marines facing Talibans in a pitched battle...
Hyperbole much?Take it from me,taking phrases from Gauda is not a very clever idea.:lol:

In addition to hyperbole my further objections:50.000 Greek mercenaries,Applebearers,Cardaces.
Alcibiades

Anyways, a Napoleon vs Genghis Khan is refreshing. I have been getting tired of Alexander vs Caesar debates myself, lately.
Very true.:)
Alcibiades
 
Joined Sep 2010
10,810 Posts | 50+
Serbia
The right to vote should never have become an issue this poll doesn't matter but it obviously matters to someone who compromised the voting for seemly selfish reasons as it hurts the entire fun concept.
Unfortunately,someone could not take this game as the fun it was supposed to be,and rigged the contest.Truly unfortunate indicator of some things.:eek:
Alcibiades

The French Revolution could have destroyed France for sure.
Surely an exaggeration?
Alcibiades
 
Joined Sep 2010
10,810 Posts | 50+
Serbia
Historum is not a private club of old members. It is not a cult, last time I cheked. It is an open forum, and as long as new members do not break any rules, I don't see why they should be excluded. Just my two cents....
AFAIK,Historum IS a private forum.
Alcibiades
 
Joined Sep 2010
10,810 Posts | 50+
Serbia
Thanks, I agree with you totally.

If there is one thing I hate more than a cheater it is a liar.

How can you argue that a lot of people coming on this site to do only one thing, many without posting anything else anywhere, could be anything but illegitimate. It is blatantly ovbious what is happening here, hence why mods intervened and why they probably will again. I find it very hard to believe people randomly come to this section and vote in this thread for one person all around the same time often on their first day. Sickening.
I must agree with both of you.:eek:
Alcibiades

Exactly, the fool was even brash enough to charge his cavalry headlong into the Sacred Band at the battle of Charonea... Brilliant.
You conveniantly left out that it succeded...
Alcibiades

The difference being that Gedrosia was launched purposefully, with the sole intent of punishing his men. Or at least that is what nearly every scholar who has ever written on the subject thinks...
No...
Alcibiades

Yes, at least that is what Ernst Badian, Ayrault Dodge, Grotke, Roisman, and Hammond (an extreme Alexander apologist) say.
And that is almost everybody who wrote on the subject?

BTW,please provide the relevant quotes for Dodge and Hammond.
Alcibiades

Really, what about the ridiculously poor siege of Tyre... (?)
??????????
Alcibiades

He couldn't lose against Tyre...think about it for a minute, you'll understand why. It is really easy to win when losing is an impossibility.
Nice red herring,btw.
Alcibiades

I'm sorry but how ridiculous... do you even know what Proskenysis is? Or heard of Callisthenes?
Do you?
Alcibiades

Everyone has come to a general consensus, it was Philip who was rightfully the Great, Alexander just finished where he left off.
When are you going to stop with innacurate generalisations,Parmenion?This is 6th or 7th I have seen in the last 24 hours.
Alcibiades

I think you should look at it again my friend, most scholars agree that Tyre was pathetic.
Yet another one.
Alcibiades
 
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