Should Italians and Romanians be considered as Latinos?

martin76 said:

Sincerely, I don´t know what´s a people...it is very difficult to say, I think...
In each country there are different cultures, languages etc etc..

Yohana,



Right, but the highest proportion of African ancestry in Europe is in Iberia (Portugal 3.2±0.3% and Spain 2.4±0.3%), consistent with inferences based on mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosomes and the observation by Auton et al. that within Europe, the Southwestern Europeans have the highest haplotype-sharing with Africans

So, the average is 2,4 in Spain and 3,2 in Portugal...and R1b1a2 (R-M269) is between 54 to 95%.. and average 68% higher than England, for example.. So, you can´t compare the 2% and the 70%.. i think, when most of the african DNA is in Canary Islands: The highest level of North African ancestry (20%) was found in the Canary Islands.

In any case, the hegemony of the R1b1a2 in Peninsula shows how the inhabitants came from Celts (Keltois) and Iberians.. but not from Latins..although they adopted latin language in a very slow course.

When somebody say Spaniards and Portuguese came from Lazio.. it is manipulation and falsehood as if we say Jamaicans and Gambians are Germanic People because they speak a Germanic Language!

History craft



Sincerely, I don´t understand you... Are afroamerican Germanic People for you, yes or not? Do you think Jamaicans and Gambians belong to the Germanic Peoples?

I can agree with you that Europe have been highly influenced by Rome and Latin culture and by Christianism... but the people in Europe are not Latins.. save the people are the Latins tribes offspring.

Are Romanians from Latins? I doubt it. Are Romanian influenced by the latins culture? Yes, of course...
Are bulgarian from Latins? I doub it. Are bulgarian influenced by the latins culture? Yes, of course...How much time was Rome in Bulgaria? 300? 400 years?

Click to expand...

I'm fairly ignorant of genetics. But from what I read of the studies:

In terms of autosomal DNA, the most recent study regarding African admixture in Iberian populations was conducted in April 2013 by Botigué et al. using genome-wide SNP data for over 2000 individuals, concluding that Spain and Portugal hold significantly higher levels of North African than the rest of the European continent. Estimates of shared ancestry averaged between 4 and 20% whereas these did not exceed 2% in other western or southern European populations. The highest level of North African ancestry (20%) was found in the Canary Islands while in the Iberian Peninsula it averaged 10–12%.[29][30][31]

Click to expand...

A similar 2009 study of Y-chromosome with 659 samples from Portugal, 680 from Northern Spain, 37 samples from Andalusia, 915 samples from mainland Italy, and 93 samples from Sicily found significally higher levels of North African male ancestry in Spain, Portugal and Sicily (7.7%, 7.1% and 7.5% respectively) than in Italy (1.7%).[35]

Click to expand...

Recent Mitochondrial DNA studies coincide in that the Iberian Peninsula holds higher levels of typically North African Haplotype U6,[26][27][38][39] as well as higher frequencies of Sub-Saharan African Haplogroup L.[14][40][41][41][42][43] However, high frequencies are largely concentrated in the west and south of the Iberian peninsula and therefore overall frequency is higher in Portugal (5.83%) than in Spain (2.9%) with a mean frequency for the entire peninsula of 3.83%. There is considerable geographic divergence across the peninsula with high frequencies observed for South West Castile (18%), Southern Portugal (10.80%), Central Portugal (9.70%), Western Andalusia (14.6%)[42] and Córdoba (8.30%).[43]

Click to expand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula

History Craft said:

I repeat, like every post, that what you are comes down to the language you speak and your culture.
However, I was trying to show how flawed the ''direct descendnt'' point of view is.

Click to expand...

I don't believe You anymore !

First show me Your genes, so I see if You're Romanian or not, then I might continue talking to You !

deaf tuner said:

I don't believe You anymore !

First show me Your genes, so I see if You're Romanian or not, then I might continue talking to You !

Click to expand...

Azarius Balios said:

Dont let them get to you. I know your Romanian.

Click to expand...

Mi-s roman maramuresean ^^

I think these genetic studies should be taken with a bit of salt since they are interpretations based on limited evidence, still some conclusions are interesting. One from what I understand is that in the Iberian Peninsula the Suebi may have left a more relevant genetic mark than the Visigoths. And they question how Germanic the Visigoth were by that time. Still the Moors in their 7 centuries or so of occupation win by a great margin:

Overall, the Germanic migrations did not leave a lot of Germanic DNA in the Iberian peninsula. That is not suprising considering that there were only 40,000 Suebi who settled there permanently, and they were the biggest contigent if we exclude the heavily hybridised Visigoths. Galicia, northern and central Portugal, and Catalonia are the regions with the highest ratios of Germanic Y-DNA today (approx. 5 to 10% of the male lineages), which is consistent with the historical settlements of the Suebi, and the Frankish influence in Catalonia's case. Paternal lineages of the ruling classes, however, are generally an overestimation of the true genetic conttribution, since foreign invaders turned monarchs and nobles tend to procreate more by having multiple sexual partners (if not multiple wives, at least mistresses or concubines). Unfortunanately it is impossible at present to determine the amount of Germanic mtDNA, as this would require testing full mitochondrial sequences (which very few studies have done to date), and even then it may prove elusive due to the limitations of the extremely short mtDNA sequence. A reasonable estimation is that Germanic genes represent no more than 1% of the Iberian gene pool, with maximums of perhaps 3% or 4% in Galicia and northern Portugal.

Click to expand...

Genetic origins of the Iberian people - Eupedia

Azarius Balios said:

I mean wow this is getting pretty good. I

Click to expand...

Not good enough !

I want % of Hipo-haplo-diplo-docus!

This thread is epic.

Chadic speakers from Western Africa are over 80% R1b carriers. Are they Celtics too?

Anyway original latins were similar to modern Southern Germans. The rest are hybrids.

Interesting also about the Basques and Catalans:

The Basque and Catalan exceptions

The Baques are indeed somewhat different genetically from other Spaniards. They have a bit more Northwest European ancestry (inherited from Mesolithic hunter-gatherers), and completely lack Red Sea, Southwest Asian and Caucasian admixtures (see autosomal maps). The absence of Red Sea and Southwest Asian admixture indicates that the Basques do not have any Phoenician, Jewish, Greek, Roman or Arabic ancestry. Looking at maternal lineages, the Basques also stand out from the rest of the peninsula, lacking many haplogroups, be it those associated with African or Southwest Asian ancestry (HV, L, M1, U3, U6) or those linked to the original Indo-European homeland in Eastern Europe (H2a1, H4, H7, H8, H11, H15, I, T1a1a1, U2, U4, W). They make up for it with higher frequencies of Mesolithic and Neolithic lineages (H1, H2a2a, H3, H5a3, J2a1a, J1c, K1a, T2, U5, V and X). This is in perfect agreement with the fact that Basque language is non-Indo-European. What generally comes as a surprise is that 85% of Basque paternal lineages belong to the Proto-Celtic R1b-P312. This can be explained by the fast replacement of male lineages due to warfare with neighbouring Proto-Celts and the establishment of a Celtic ruling class who quickly spread their Y-DNA through polygamy.
Interestingly the Catalans also lack the Southwest Asian ancestry, but do have some Red Sea and Caucasian genes. The Southwest Asian admixture is slightly more common in southern Portugal and Andalusia, which is consistent with the higher historical presence of Phoenician, Roman and Arabic people in that region. The Basques and the Catalans are the only Western European completely lacking genetic contribution from Southwest Asia. This is also translated in an extreme scarcity of Y-haplogroups J1, E-M34 and T, which are all typically Southwest Asian linages.

Click to expand...

Genetic origins of the Iberian people - Eupedia

Proto Celtic R1b-P312? xD

Maciamo is a complete joke. Please!

deaf tuner said:

and You fall into the trap …

You start to demonstrate because of martin's insistence the un-demonstrable: language, culture, people trough genetics.

If You are Romanian, You are Romanian because of the language You speak, the culture You formed into.

And Romanians are said to be "Latin" because of their language, that is an evolution of ancient Latin. One can call it "Latin", as in one of the languages of the larger linguistic group called "Latin languages", or "romance", or "Neo-Latin", or one of the surviving variations of "latina vulgata". As the Spanish are also called "Latin" for the same reason, as French, Italians, Portuguese aso. Because of the linguistic heritage.

You personally could have 0,01% of Roman blood. It doesn't change Your ethnicity, Your language, Your culture.

Heck, if we look trough martin's genetical glasses, Hungarians, Romanians, Bulgarians are one, single people

Click to expand...

You were reason if you also say Jamamicans are called "Germanic" because they speak a Germanic Language...and Gambians are also Germanic People..

And yes, I agree with you.. I think Hungarians-Romanians-Bulgarians are the same people or the same group of peoples

History Craft

By the dictionary definition yeah.

By blood? Yes. Tens of millions have at least one germanic ancestor, while some have more germanic ancestors than african, either way yes.

The point is also that former roman colonies are even more latin than the given example (regarding your blood orientated argumentation).

Click to expand...

If that´s your opinion.. I agree, you are consistent with your thinking and so Yes, i can understand for you romanian and spaniards are latins.. because you sincerely believe gambians are Germanic.. So, yes, I agree with you.

Deaf Turner,

country" doesn't superpose always with "people".

Click to expand...

I don´t believe in "people" and words as "Nation", "Country" or "People" are unclear and not scientific concepts.

"language", "culture", "people", "nation" are very fluid things.

Click to expand...

Absolutly I agree with you in this phrase.. In fact, that the reason because I think DNA Mythochondrial is a scientific concept can explain the origin of the groups... Language? it is only an accident...
Jamaica was a Spanish Dominion till 1655.. that it means that Jamaican were "Spaniards" and "Latins" till 1655.. and that from 1655 they are "Anglosaxon" and Germanic...
Or For example, Florida...they are "latins" from 1513 to 1763.. they are "Germanics" from 1763 to 1783, they back again to be "latins" from 1783 to 1821, and they are "Germanic" again from 1821 onwards...
Sincerely, I think It is a folly!
"Language" and "people" are very different concepts..I think

Johana,

From the same page you write about Genetics it is clear r1b is the most important haplogroup in Spain and Portugal.

The Pyrenees slowed the progression of the Proto-Celts toward Iberia, but eventually, around 1800 BCE, the first foreign Bronze Age cultures make their appearance in El Argar and Los Millares in south-east Spain, with sporadic sites showing up in Castile by 1700 BCE and in Extremadura and southern Portugal by 1500 BCE.

These cultures might have been founded by small groups of R1b adventurers looking for easy conquests in parts of Europe that did not yet have bronze weapons.
Iberia did not become a fully-fledged Bronze Age society until the 13th century BCE, when the Urnfield culture (1300-1200 BCE) expanded from Germany to Catalonia via southern France, then the ensuing Hallstatt culture (1200-750 BCE) spread throughout most of the peninsula (especially the western half). This period belongs to the wider Atlantic Bronze Age (1300-700 BCE), when Iberia was connected to the rest of Western Europe through a complex trade network. It is during this Bronze Age period, between 1800 and 1200 BCE that R1b-DF23, the main Iberian branch of R1b, probably propagated.

The Proto-Celtic and Hallstatt Celtic migrations to Iberia had a considerable impact on the modern gene pool. A bit over half of Portuguese paternal lineages and two thirds of Spanish ones can be traced back to this period under the form of R1b (excluding the Germanic S21 branch and some of the U152 that may be Roman)

In fact, from a Genetic-Biological point of view, Celtics are the most important group in the modern Spaniards and Portuguese... not Rome... not Lazio.. Rome is the most important for language and culture but not for blood-Biology.

Thanks by the information and the interesting web.

Hahahah

Do you even realize that Basques are over 85% R1b carriers and clearly of non Celtic stock? xD

Spaniards are 50% R1b, so they are like a mix of Basques and Africans.

Outside of Italy, Spain has the greatest amount of Roman/Latin ancestry.

martin76 said:

Johana,

In fact, from a Genetic-Biological point of view, Celtics are the most important group in the modern Spaniards and Portuguese... not Rome... not Lazio.. Rome is the most important for language and culture but not for blood-Biology.

Thanks by the information and the interesting web.

Click to expand...

You're welcome I also appreciate the info you shared. And I don't think anything contradicted your idea that the pre Roman population didn't suffer a radical change.

Yôḥānān;2466641 said:

You're welcome I also appreciate the info you shared.

Click to expand...

Look how he never quotes my posts because he lacks any argument. He is clearly afraid of the truth.

martin76 said:

you sincerely believe gambians are Germanic.. So, yes, I agree with you.

Click to expand...

First of all, don't gambians have english only as official language while they speak like 5 different non-germanic languages in their daily life (which means they don't even qualify for your argument/example)?

Secondly, I highly disapprove of how you take a most extreme case (which I doubt is even correctly brought into the discussion) in order to ignore my arguments, arguments which perfectly address your points regarding ancestry.

I'll just copy-paste my post since you didn't answer it, instead deciding to bring a small group of less than 2 million, ignoring the group representing hundreds of millions (the spaniards&romanians - roman group, the mixed african-americans - germanic group, etc)/

By the dictionary definition yeah. Anybody who speaks a germanic language is considered germanic, otherwise something like half of the germans in Europe aren't even germans (which would probably be the most ridiculous situation in the history of Mankind).

By blood? Yes. Tens of millions have at least one germanic ancestor, while some have more germanic ancestors than african, either way yes.

The point is also that former roman colonies are even more latin than the given example (regarding your blood orientated argumentation).

I'm not saying Spaniards or Romanians or Bulgarians or the French come from Lazio, however, I am saying that they are all descendants of the original latins, despite the fact the latin part (give me extra points for scientifically formulated conclusion) isn't predominant. Hell, a lot (most actually) of people living in today's Lazio are closer the the tens of millions of slaves brought there over the centuries (or the millions of pesants who relocated from S-N Italy to leech off Rome, or the tens of millions of people who migrated there for the economy, etc) rather than the original people of Lazio, does that make them non-latins?

I'm trying to show how flawed the ''direct descendnt'' point of view is, in case you're still wondering.

Naomasa298 said:

Now, I know that everyone in this thread is aware of the rule about the discussion of genetics being banned on Historum.

Let's keep it out of this thread, then no one gets hurt.

Click to expand...

Naomasa-san sir, we did nothing wrong.

We were just playing latin and latinos and it was martin starting saying I said he is Lazio and I didn't say that and he threw at me with genetics that hurt and I still didn't called him names but he spoke to me nasty words that start with haplo and others called him back haplo words but I did not!

God Emperor said:

Look how he never quotes my posts because he lacks any argument. He is clearly afraid of the truth.

Click to expand...

I'm sure you will overcome your differences