Should naturalized U.S. citizens be allowed to run for U.S. President?

Glowin · Mar 20, 2015

Hitler WAS technically German.Just because he was born like an Austrian citizen, doesn't make him any less German - in fat, Austrian ethnicity was invented after WW2. And Stalin wasn't president of Russia, but a prime minister of Soviet Union (whose part Georgian SSR was). Some of you guys are factually wrong and mixing apples and oranges. Get your facts straight.
Also, naming these two bad boys as your counterargument is a little bit non-sensical. US is not gonna become anytime soon the chaos that was Wiemar Republic or post civil war USSR.
Now continue discussion, it's a good one.

Futurist · Mar 20, 2015

Glowin said:
Hitler WAS technically German.Just because he was born like an Austrian citizen, doesn't make him any less German - in fat, Austrian ethnicity was invented after WW2. And Stalin wasn't president of Russia, but a prime minister of Soviet Union (whose part Georgian SSR was). Some of you guys are factually wrong and mixing apples and oranges. Get your facts straight.
Also, naming these two bad boys as your counterargument is a little bit non-sensical. US is not gonna become anytime soon the chaos that was Wiemar Republic or post civil war USSR.
Now continue discussion, it's a good one.

Yeah--as I previously stated here--as far as I know, Corsica was legally a part of France when Napoleon was born and Georgia was legally a part of Russia when Stalin was born; thus, using either of these men to argue in favor of the natural-born citizen requirement for the U.S. Presidency appears to be invalid.

And Yes, as for Hitler, as far as I know, he certainly considered himself to be a proud, patriotic German; in fact, I think that this might have been a part of the reason as for why exactly his sentence after the 1923 Munich Beer Hall Putsch was so light/mild.

Spartacuss · Mar 20, 2015

What handicaps would a naturalized citizen face should it be legal to run for president?

Code Blue · Mar 20, 2015

Glowin said:
Hitler WAS technically German.Just because he was born like an Austrian citizen, doesn't make him any less German - in fat, Austrian ethnicity was invented after WW2.

"Technically?"

"Austria-Hungary, also known as the Austro-Hungarian Empire and by other names, was a [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy"]constitutional[/ame] union of the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdoms_and_Lands_Represented_in_the_Imperial_Council"]Empire of Austria[/ame] and the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lands_of_the_Holy_Hungarian_Crown_of_Saint_Stephen"]Kingdom of Hungary[/ame] that existed from 1867 to 1918,"
Austria-Hungary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The division between Austria and Hungary was so marked that there was no common citizenship: one was either an Austrian citizen or a Hungarian citizen, never both."
Austria-Hungary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Weimar Constitution, Article 16.
"Officials charged with the direct administration of national affairs in any state shall, as a rule, be citizens of that state."
Article 110.
"Citizenship in the Reich and in the states shall be acquired and lost in accordance with the provisions of a national law.

""Hitler...
Austrian citizen until 7 April 1925[1]
Citizen of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_of_Brunswick"]Brunswick[/ame] after 25 February 1932"
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler"]Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

And Stalin wasn't president of Russia

No one said he was.

Futurist · Mar 20, 2015

Spartacuss said:
What handicaps would a naturalized citizen face should it be legal to run for president?

Xenophobia, for one.

Code Blue · Mar 20, 2015

EmperorTigerstar said:
Van Buren wasn't born in the modern-day US/13 colonies and HE became president.

Futurist said:
Actually, Van Buren was born in New York.

Van Buren was born before 1787, so his legitimate status would be "grandfathered" by the NBC exception.

US Constitution.
"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible..."

The first US President to whom the "natural born" provision applied was John Tyler, 11th Pres., born 1790.

Futurist · Mar 20, 2015

Code Blue said:
Van Buren was born before 1787, so his legitimate status would be "grandfathered" by the NBC exception.

US Constitution.
"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible..."

Yes, I am already well-aware of that part of the U.S. Constitution.

Futurist · Mar 20, 2015

Pedro said:
There's the problem. You are in a position to sell out.

Yes, but it is worth noting that naturalized U.S. citizens aren't the only ones who are capable of selling the U.S. out; here is just one example of a natural-born U.S. citizen who sold the U.S. out (though in a different capacity):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

Code Blue · Mar 20, 2015

Spartacuss said:
What handicaps would a naturalized citizen face should it be legal to run for president?

Apparently nothing. Perhaps a few strict Constitutionalists makes some noise, and one way or the other, everyone else ignores it. IMO, two Presidents have been elected without meeting the definition of NBC used in Supreme Court opinions.

Futurist · Mar 20, 2015

Code Blue said:
IMO, two Presidents have been elected without meeting the definition of NBC used in Supreme Court opinions.

Exactly which ones, though?

Code Blue · Mar 20, 2015

Futurist said:
Yes, but it is worth noting that naturalized U.S. citizens aren't the only ones who are capable of selling the U.S. out; here is just one example of a natural-born U.S. citizen who sold the U.S. out (though in a different capacity):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

It is true that law is no guaranty of utopia. Citizenship requirements are just an attempt at precaution.

On the other hand, though, if the leader of your country had foreign loyalties to begin with, is it really "selling out?"

AlpinLuke · Mar 20, 2015

Spartacuss said:
What handicaps would a naturalized citizen face should it be legal to run for president?

Mah, if the process of naturalization is calibrated [as for duration and quality] to warrant to the State that a new citizen has got all the prerogatives and the capabilities of a "natural born citizen" ... I don't see differences.

May be in countries where for immigrants there is a brief and simple procedure to get the citizenship it would be advisable to put some limits [again, I can think only to temporal limits] before of allowing naturalized citizens to access to public offices of great importance.

About this, I note that it's a matter of being resident in US for at least 5 years [Citizenship Through Naturalization | USCIS] to try and get the citizenship through naturalization, or to have served in US Army.

But US Constitution requires that to be candidate to the Presidency you have to have lived in US for 14 years ...

14 years are enough, in my opinion.

Spartacuss · Mar 20, 2015

AlpinLuke said:
But US Constitution requires that to be candidate to the Presidency you have to have lived in US for 14 years ...

14 years are enough, in my opinion.

I would agree. But the last two elections demonstrate that a large portion of the electorate have a problem with a candidate with a foreign sounding name. And he was a natural born citizen. For those people 14 years or 40 years for a naturalized citizen would not matter as long as the opposing candidate was a "real American".

Code Blue · Mar 20, 2015

Spartacuss said:
I would agree. But the last two elections demonstrate that a large portion of the electorate have a problem with a candidate with a foreign sounding name. And he was a natural born citizen. For those people 14 years or 40 years for a naturalized citizen would not matter as long as the opposing candidate was a "real American".

Straw man.

I wonder what the discussion would look like if it were against the rules for a poster to imply that anyone who doesn't hold the same opinions as the poster is a xenophobe or a racist.

constantine · Mar 20, 2015

Futurist said:
What about this guy? :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Peter_Altgeld

Considering the facts of his life (coming here when he was 3 months old), from a purely objective sense he's probably a good case to argue that perhaps 35 years of citizenship should be enough, regardless of where one was born. However, more subjectively, I'm quite glad that the likes of him could never sit in the oval office. The man was a socialist: he should have been excluded from whatever office possible by whatever convention could be invented.

EmperorTigerstar · Mar 20, 2015

Futurist said:
Actually, Van Buren was born in New York.

You're right. Forgive me. I got confused Dutch language with dutch residence.

Spartacuss · Mar 20, 2015

Futurist said:
Xenophobia, for one.

No doubt. And unfortunately so. There are naturalized citizens out there now that are capable of holding the office. Even more in the future. But oh my, that name. If one doubts a name could make a difference, one should check with Piyush, who is a natural born citizen. So yes, such would be a hurdle that would require care negotiating.

AlpinLuke · Mar 20, 2015

Spartacuss said:
I would agree. But the last two elections demonstrate that a large portion of the electorate have a problem with a candidate with a foreign sounding name. And he was a natural born citizen. For those people 14 years or 40 years for a naturalized citizen would not matter as long as the opposing candidate was a "real American".

There is also the electoral strategy to preserve the nation from "risks" ...

Do you think that the Republicans could candidate Mrs Lian Jiao Han?

I guess that she would naturalize also the name, changing it in Lilian Jane Hall!

Spartacuss · Mar 20, 2015

AlpinLuke said:
There is also the electoral strategy to preserve the nation from "risks" ...

Do you think that the Republicans could candidate Mrs Lian Jiao Han?

I guess that she would naturalize also the name, changing it in Lilian Jane Hall!

I wouldn't be surprised if such has not happened in the past, but more on a local than national scene.

Code Blue · Mar 23, 2015

Well, in the news today is a declared US Presidential candidate born in the state of Alberta, Canada.

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Should naturalized U.S. citizens be allowed to run for U.S. President?

Should naturalized U.S. citizens be allowed to run for U.S. President?

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Glowin

Futurist

Spartacuss

Code Blue

Futurist

Code Blue

Futurist

Futurist

Code Blue

Futurist

Code Blue

AlpinLuke

Spartacuss

Code Blue

constantine

EmperorTigerstar

Spartacuss

AlpinLuke

Spartacuss

Code Blue

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