Should Poland pay reparations to Germany?

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wer

Joined Apr 2010
53 Posts | 0+
Shouldn't we listen to the overwhelming amount of German people who don't want reparations, instead of listening to a very small minority?
This thread is about the minority. And by the way, most of the Germans are not opposed to that calls, they are ignorant of them. That's why the extreme positions get most of the medial coverage.

You shouldn't use international law for your interests.
On the very contrary!!! Everybody should use the law to defend one’s own interests against the interests of others. That’s the raison d'être of law.

But it's done and Germans accept it.
That’s what the international law is about. International law is a set of rules accepted by the states in question. Similarly, Czech Republic accepts that Germany will never pay the war reparation to the Czech Republic, or that Germany internally considers the Munich dictate to be legaly binding.
Once anybody questions one single piece of this set of rules, he questions the whole set.

The German government has denied any will to ask for reparations.
Right.

So perhaps Poles and Czechs are offended by something that doesn't really exist.
No, it exists. Only the German government is not to blame for it.

Do you make a great difference between these two kinds of reparations?
Of course, relation between different subjects is different relation.

Wouldn't it be better to appreciate it?
Anything which decrease the sensation of injustice among people concerned should be appreciated.
 
Joined Nov 2009
3,765 Posts | 2+
Queensland, Australia
This above is what I wrote.

"Overmans and Haar cited these studies on confirmed deaths, saying they result in a number between 500,000 and 600,000. Both believe that further research is needed to determine the fate of the estimated additional 1.5 million civilians listed as missing. However, Overmans says that the 600,000 deaths found by the German Federal Archives are as close to the truth as can be established with present data. Haar says that all reasonable estimates of deaths from expulsions lie between around 500,000 and 600,000."
Thats above is what you wrote
I did not write this word. I have quoted them-that is a big difference but I’m used to your twisting of the words so I’m not surprised. Please check onc again my post no 50
I quoted them as a figure which has been rejected by Federal Archives; you use them to broadcast your anti-polish propaganda, stating that 600000 German has been killed by Poles. Could I ask for what reason are you doing that? Is your upbraiding and education influenced your objectivism?

As the Wervolf is concerned, I will suggest to not completely relay on wiki post but to do some more research. As a beginning I will suggest
Werwolf!: the history of the National Socialist guerrilla movement, 1944-1946

By Alexander Perry Biddiscombe

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=2T5YOy3iTYAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Perry+Biddiscombe&source=bl&ots=Hq2hc00HM3&sig=jwfvWS6hculrROoEb2--r7zJ3wY&hl=en&ei=tWxsTOrOHoPRcbKDsFY&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
Joined Jan 2010
17,473 Posts | 16+
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Last edited:
I did not write this word. I have quoted them-that is a big difference but I’m used to your twisting of the words so I’m not surprised. Please check onc again my post no 50
Of course you didn't. If you like it, I will correct me. So instead of "you wrote", please set "you cited" or "you posted" and as well this would be so for me, because I cited as well and as I see, the same sources.

I quoted them as a figure which has been rejected by Federal Archives; you use them to broadcast your anti-polish propaganda, stating that 600000 German has been killed by Poles. Could I ask for what reason are you doing that? Is your upbraiding and education influenced your objectivism?
If I wrote all these were killed by Poles it is of course wrong. But I don't remember I did. If I did let me correct it. Of course Russians took part in these murder too. But perhaps you can explain me the number of 1.5 to 1.7 millions missing Germans. Did they fade away, UFO kidnapping....?????.

As the Wervolf is concerned, I will suggest to not completely relay on wiki post but to do some more research. As a beginning I will suggest
Werwolf!: the history of the National Socialist guerrilla movement, 1944-1946

By Alexander Perry Biddiscombe
perhaps it would be interesting for the participants of these thread and the other readers, that Biddiscombe is the only author, who sees the Werwolf as important. But as well he, Biddiscombe, reports the werwolf as "minor" and desperate people living in forests, mainly in the Harz mountains and the Black Forrest. A former American Ambassador stated that American post-war casualties didn't exist. Biddiscombe wrote that werewolf was destroyed in summer 1945 and that it was no real threat for the allies. As well he wrote, the werewolf had no support from the German population. The most action that the werewolf organisation, if we can speak at all of an organisation, was accused of, were not committed by werewolf. They were proven wrong, done by regular troops, just nazi propaganda or the werwolf was falsivly accused for it.
The arresting and murder of several thousands of German children was another warcrime. And here we come to another point. You blame little boys to be responsible for actions towards the German population in East Germany. This is in my opinion a very strange view.
But I want to make you happy. There was at least one very brutal and dangerous werewolf. And I know him very well, it was - my father!
When the US troops came closer and closer to the Weser, German solders fled eastwards and let a lot of amunition and weapons on the sides of the streets. My father, blood-thirsty as evrybody knows him, took up a bazooka, to kill as much Americans as he could. While the Wehrmacht was on the retreat, he stood as guard on the market place and laid on the bazooka to everyone who was crossing the market place. The whole popuation living around the market place was threatend and frozen of fear. they informed my Great-grandfather. He was the only one who had the courage to face eye to eye with my brutal father and he was the only men my father would perhaps obie to. So he walk to my father and took the bazooka out of his hands. So perhaps one of your werewolf-terrorists was stopped.
Oh, before I forget it, my father was born in March 1940, so he was five years old at that time. Damned brutal werewolf nazi bastard!!!!!!
Probably he is responsible for American war crimes committed at those days too. Who knows?
 
Joined Nov 2009
3,765 Posts | 2+
Queensland, Australia
You got a very short memory, Beornia,
You not only suggested that Poles killed 600,000 Germans but also are responsible for additional 1,500,000 of unexplained cases.
Poles ..... 250,000 German women and as results, they committed suicide? Are you kidding?
The federal archwise estimated number of deaths as 100,000 (anyway, much to high number IMO)but you offcourse know better.

This was my question in Post 47
"Do you have any data haw many German civilians have been killed by Polish communist Regime or by vengeance of Polish civilian population? It will be interesting to know. I tried to find any reasonable estimation but to no avail.
Millions of Germans has been killed or died from exposure during “flight from the East” escaping advancing Red Army. The real number will probably never be known, we could only “gestimate”.
Your answer in post 48
there is no exact data. there are about 500.000 to 600.000 proven cases. 1,6 milion more people are missing. what happened to them or where they are is unknown. about a quarter million of women died as results of rapes.

It depends as well what you want to count. some don't count people, who starved in prisoner's camps or as a result of bad hygienic situation
__________________
 
Joined Jan 2010
17,473 Posts | 16+
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perhaps some pictures of terrorist by werewolf and other units


















or do you mean them????


PS, to all our forum members: I know there are probably thousands of picture of german crimes that in brutallity don't fall behind the picture above. I really thought about publishing it. I don't know if it was right done. perhaps it was not. But it shows the real face of war, not the heroic picture from attacks, nor waving flags on the Reichstag, not the handshake at the Elbe river, this is the face of war and those little children are the victims, as well german children and all the other murdered children of other nations. Please forgive me my emotions, but the boy on the left looks exactly like my son. How can people really want to discuss all these victims away? I can never understand it.
I started these post laughing, especially when I told the true story about my father. But indeed this is not funny at all
 
Joined Nov 2009
3,765 Posts | 2+
Queensland, Australia
perhaps some pictures of terrorist by werewolf and other units


















or do you mean them????


PS, to all our forum members: I know there are probably thousands of picture of german crimes that in brutallity don't fall behind the picture above. I really thought about publishing it. I don't know if it was right done. perhaps it was not. But it shows the real face of war, not the heroic picture from attacks, nor waving flags on the Reichstag, not the handshake at the Elbe river, this is the face of war and those little children are the victims, as well german children and all the other murdered children of other nations. Please forgive me my emotions, but the boy on the left looks exactly like my son. How can people really want to discuss all these victims away? I can never understand it.
I started these post laughing, especially when I told the true story about my father. But indeed this is not funny at all
Very tragic picture, indeed.
But it is inappropriate to post them in this thread
 
Joined Jan 2010
17,473 Posts | 16+
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Very tragic picture, indeed.
But it is inappropriate to post them in this thread
yes, perhaps it is. you introduced the werewolve and you try to reduce the number of germans as low as possible. And till now you havn't explained where the 1.5 to 1.7 millions of german civilians are that are missing. What's about the 78.000 US american soldiers of WWII that are missed?
I posted these picture, so that you can see the enemy you are talking about.

and i am not kidding, not more!
 
Joined Jul 2010
2,249 Posts | 0+
Munich, Capital of the Kingdom of Bavaria
This thread is about the minority. And by the way, most of the Germans are not opposed to that calls, they are ignorant of them. That's why the extreme positions get most of the medial coverage.

No, it exists. Only the German government is not to blame for it.
So what do you suggest? Should the german government deny its people the right to appeal to courts? Perhaps by putting them into prision or censoring their letters?

We are not Nazi Germany any more and we will not deny our citizens basic human rights - as the ability to sue when they feel that they have been wronged - just for you to feel a bit better. We are a free country now and we will not change that, no matter if your courts have to actually debate a bit and then deny the cases.

This is way overblown.

and by the way, this is not the german extreme. you know that as well as I do, its just convinient to brand them "extreme nationalists" for wanting money for their lost property. There is nothing nationalistic about the mere court cases. The german extreme demands that the former german lands get given back to the german state. So with all respect... those are not extremists. They are just a bit delusional.
 
Joined Nov 2009
3,765 Posts | 2+
Queensland, Australia
yes, perhaps it is. you introduced the werewolve and you try to reduce the number of germans as low as possible. And till now you havn't explained where the 1.5 to 1.7 millions of german civilians are that are missing. What's about the 78.000 US american soldiers of WWII that are missed?
I posted these picture, so that you can see the enemy you are talking about.

and i am not kidding, not more!
Sorry, beorna. I did not know that you are a sick man. I will not disturb you any more. Be carful, mental health is a very important.
 
Joined Jan 2010
17,473 Posts | 16+
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Sorry, beorna. I did not know that you are a sick man. I will not disturb you any more. Be carful, mental health is a very important.
I don't know what you mean, but thank you very much for your warmest wishes. I appreciate it.
But can I understand it that way, that you do not want to explain, where those 1.5 millions are? No idea at all?
 
Joined Jun 2006
10,363 Posts | 32+
U.K.
If all this thread is doing is re-igniting German-Polish bitterness, perhaps it should be closed for good.
 
Joined Jan 2010
17,473 Posts | 16+
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it is your thread, Belisarius. You opened it, so it's your right to close it.
But I think the question of this thread already was responsible for a quarrel, because of great sensibility in Poland and the Czech Republik, surprisingly not in Russia. On the other side did the German government deny any will to ask for reparation. So there was no need for the thread. In the same way we could start a thread, should the Bureau of Indian affairs pay reparations to the USA. Kimi already said it. Poland and the Czech republic are part of the EU. they have to accept, that people are free to a go to a court. this is not against any international relation, just common right. If a court says they have to get it back, it has to be accepted, in the same way those Germans have to accept it if it is denied.
 
Joined Nov 2009
3,765 Posts | 2+
Queensland, Australia
If all this thread is doing is re-igniting German-Polish bitterness, perhaps it should be closed for good.
Perhaps you should. As long as in Germany are people of Boerna attitude, there will be no reconciliation between those two nations.
I’m putting boerna on my ignore list so it will be no more clashes between us.
 
Joined Dec 2006
3,220 Posts | 6+
New Jersey, USA
Since both beorna and Edward agree that this thread should be closed, I am closing it. Clearly this debate was going nowhere.
 
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