Should western countries adopt mandatory military service?

Joined May 2012
304 Posts | 2+
...enslaved...got the tee-shirt.

Then we just disagree. Some people think their country is worth defending, somehow (in a cheap and good way, or with a professional army that is way too expensive for small countries), and some don't. Get a tee-shirt? You were kicked out?
 
Joined Jul 2011
7,400 Posts | 945+
Australia
National service - no. We had a saying in the navy that one volunteer was worth ten pressed men. Far better to have a military made up of well trained and motivated professionals than semi-trained unwilling conscripts. From a purely materialistic point of view, to train a soldier, sailor or airman requires a significant investment in time and money. A conscript is not going to be around long enough to receive much useful training or give value for money.

Having said that, if there is national service then it must be for everyone. No exceptions and no exemptions. If a person is not physically or mentally able to perform military service then they can be found some form of civil service in line with their abilities.
 
Joined Jan 2010
2,974 Posts | 1+
Incline Village near Lake Tahoe
National service - no. We had a saying in the navy that one volunteer was worth ten pressed men. Far better to have a military made up of well trained and motivated professionals than semi-trained unwilling conscripts. From a purely materialistic point of view, to train a soldier, sailor or airman requires a significant investment in time and money. A conscript is not going to be around long enough to receive much useful training or give value for money.

Having said that, if there is national service then it must be for everyone. No exceptions and no exemptions. If a person is not physically or mentally able to perform military service then they can be found some form of civil service in line with their abilities.

hello, belg:

A stout well trained, expensive, motivated, professional Army seems to be a laudable solution during war, however this Army becomes a standing Army during peace time and a threat to our freedoms given that a Nuevo Richard Nixon steps into the White house.

If you and all of your friends are reticent to join the fight, the enemy will bring the fight to you and all are unprepared to make a stand.

Lake
 
Joined May 2012
1,714 Posts | 1+
Belgarion, you think that every conscript does not want to be there, but in alot of cases it provides an option for a young man who may not have considered it before, he may even like it.
 
Joined Apr 2011
1,087 Posts | 0+
Finland
Best thing I learned in the army was the idea that there is no use fighting against things you can do nothing about. You just hurt your head banging against a wall.
 
Joined Jul 2011
7,400 Posts | 945+
Australia
hello, belg:

A stout well trained, expensive, motivated, professional Army seems to be a laudable solution during war, however this Army becomes a standing Army during peace time and a threat to our freedoms given that a Nuevo Richard Nixon steps into the White house.

If you and all of your friends are reticent to join the fight, the enemy will bring the fight to you and all are unprepared to make a stand.

Lake
Lake, are you saying that a professional standing army is a threat to its own people?
 
Joined Jul 2011
7,400 Posts | 945+
Australia
Belgarion, you think that every conscript does not want to be there, but in alot of cases it provides an option for a young man who may not have considered it before, he may even like it.

Many consripts have no particular objection to serving their term, and a few do find they enjoy the life and re-engage for full time service. However in the first instance they are still a waste of resources given their short period of service, and in the latter these numbers are not enough to make conscription worthwhile.
 
Joined May 2012
34 Posts | 0+
Exactly? Should they?

Or let me rephrase it
Is there any valid reason why they should?
No? There's your answer, op.
 
Joined May 2012
304 Posts | 2+
waste of resources given their short period of service

Would six months for a regular foot soldier and a year for everyone else be enough? Full time training with only some weekends free. And after the service in every few years one week refreshment training.

Nrexplain: One valid reason would be this: preparing to defend your country. Off course there are other ways to do this than conscription, but in some cases conscription is the best way. Very few countries have no armies at all.
 
Joined May 2012
221 Posts | 0+
Groningen, Netherlands
I think peace-time conscription is useless. Much better to have an professional army then, complemented with reservists for peace-time duties and small military actions abroad to keep them combat ready.

If the time turns to war you can start conscription and promote the professional army to lead the new recruits. Like the Germans did during their mobilization in the 1930's.
 
Joined May 2012
34 Posts | 0+
Nrexplain: One valid reason would be this: preparing to defend your country. Off course there are other ways to do this than conscription, but in some cases conscription is the best way. Very few countries have no armies at all.

Defending?
From whom?
 
Joined May 2012
34 Posts | 0+
Russians. Oops...:)

Naah, I'd rather watch out for dem dirty Turkish arabs, they want to conquers us with immigrants.
Or evil Muslims poisoning the minds of our youth.
Or vicious chinese primates who want to flood us with their cheap poisoned radioactive products from Nagashima.

Not to mention older enemies, such as the Jews, Atheists, republicans and Gauls.
 
Joined May 2012
1,714 Posts | 1+
Naah, I'd rather watch out for dem dirty Turkish arabs, they want to conquers us with immigrants.
Or evil Muslims poisoning the minds of our youth.
Or vicious chinese primates who want to flood us with their cheap poisoned radioactive products from Nagashima.

Not to mention older enemies, such as the Jews, Atheists, republicans and Gauls.

I can agree with you on everything BUT the gaul thing, wharts wrong with the gauls?
 
Joined Nov 2011
6,052 Posts | 167+
Confoederatio Helvetica
Mandatory military service is a huge breach of personal liberty. That is why there have to be really good reasons for it, not just something like teaching young men discipline. In case a country is under threat of an invasion, mandatory military service can be justified and can indeed contribute decisively to the defense of a country. Of course, at the time the invasion occurs, it is too late for such a measure; that is why the risks have to be analyzed well before.

Currently, after the end of the Cold War, I don't see such a risk in most Western countries. Today's threats are different, e.g. terrorist attacks or attacks on citizens or institutions abroad (embassies, ships, etc.). In part, military engagements abroad to defend a country's interests may be justified, but as they are not directly related to the defense of one's homeland, they don't justify mandatory military service. Even if we don't consider civil rights, a professional army is much more capable of controlling such threats.

Reading some of the posts in this threat I wonder about the life experience or the lack thereof of some of the posters. When I had to serve in the military, I experienced it exactly as I wrote above - a huge breach of my personal liberty. For the first time in my life, I had lost my freedom. This is different from mandatory schooling or working at a job. Some of my comrades decided that the conditions under which we served were so bad that they just didn't show up any more. So they were chased by military police, tracked down like criminals and put into jail.

Germany has now paused military service starting last year. This means that the law still remains in the constitution, but the implementation is now paused for the time being. In reality, it comes close to abolishing military service, and I don't see any chance of it being reintroduced in the next decades. Which is a good thing. In fact, I was astonished about how long it took the government to come to this obvious conclusion. Didn't the Cold War end in 1989-1991, with the last Soviet Soldiers leaving Germany in 1994?

Besides the breach of personal liberty, there was another problem with German military service: injustice and inequality. Many people dodged military service, and we as the conscripted felt like the nation's idiots. The problem was twofold: First, many people avoided military service by conscientious objection. In principle, this is of course okay, and many of these men did a valuable (and difficult) job in hospitals. But many of these conscientious objectors actually got very easy-going jobs, often abroad and with no real effort involved. Nothing like being chased around by drill sergeants. Second, many men dodged mandatory service altogether, often on alleged health reasons (yes, there are many examples of professional sportsmen being unfit for service). I still feel the injustice when I read CVs from persons who were smart enough to avoid service, whereas I have lost a year in my professional career due to my honesty and sense of duty.

So please keep all this in mind when discussing such a far-reaching issue.
 
Joined May 2010
2,964 Posts | 1+
Rhondda
Then we just disagree. Some people think their country is worth defending, somehow (in a cheap and good way, or with a professional army that is way too expensive for small countries), and some don't. Get a tee-shirt? You were kicked out?

My Country doesn't have an Army, and, no, I completed my time in the RAF to everyone's satisfaction but my own.
 
Joined Jan 2010
2,974 Posts | 1+
Incline Village near Lake Tahoe
Last edited:
Lake, are you saying that a professional standing army is a threat to its own people?

thanx, belg

ABSOLUTELY, during peacetime!!! .....This not only my view, it was taken from our founding fathers.

Lake
 
Joined Jan 2010
2,974 Posts | 1+
Incline Village near Lake Tahoe
So..without a peacetime army, where does it come from when needed?

bel:

As I have said several times before, During peace time, a semi Swiss system is adapted where in all 20 's to 30's folks (both men and women are given a rifle and classroms for monthly training. In addition, all to the age of 70 take a staggered 2 weeks of Full Army Training (Tanks, 50 mm machine guns, mortars, recon, intel ....) .

These days of the 1 hour war wherein everyone is decimated as well as the upper atmosphere is damaged, conscription is unnecessary. However, it could serve as a deterrent to terrorists and those who wish to crash: our satellites, overseas industries, electrical systems and our critical resource supplies as oil.

Lake
 
Joined Jul 2011
7,400 Posts | 945+
Australia
bel:

As I have said several times before, During peace time, a semi Swiss system is adapted where in all 20 's to 30's folks (both men and women are given a rifle and classroms for monthly training. In addition, all to the age of 70 take a staggered 2 weeks of Full Army Training (Tanks, 50 mm machine guns, mortars, recon, intel ....) .

These days of the 1 hour war wherein everyone is decimated as well as the upper atmosphere is damaged, conscription is unnecessary. However, it could serve as a deterrent to terrorists and those who wish to crash: our satellites, overseas industries, electrical systems and our critical resource supplies as oil.

Lake

Two weeks a year and one day a month, then you are qualified to drop your civilian employment and jump straight into your tank, aircraft or warship and sally forth to do battle?

It requires constant and intensive training to gain the expertise required of an effective military force, and these skills deteriorate rapidly if not exercised continuously, therefore a full time professional military force is essential. A Swiss model force such as you describe is fine for enhancing the professional military as required, but it is not able or indended to replace it.
 

Trending History Discussions

Top