Tamil Society as existed 2000 years ago

kazeuma said:

Where in Greek Myths did Heracles visit India?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labours_of_Hercules Has no visit to India by the Greek demigod.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna

May not have anything to do with the life of Hercules / Heracles, though some elements are the same it is not likely they are the same person.

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Vajra said:

But elsewhere Kuzmina gives early dates for Bishkent,contemporary with Shortugai:

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Vajra said:

Sintashta/Andronovo was still in Urals during this time.

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Vajra said:

Obviously the Bishkent culture became prominent after the fall of Shortugai.But there were early contacts between the two.Why Bishkent culture overrun Shortugai is no rocket science,since SSVC collapsed,Shortugai also gradually declined and Bishkent folks took advantage of the situation.

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Vajra said:

I couldn't post the pics,but I've posted a statement by Sarianidi in my above post....

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Vajra said:

I think no one can doubt this,Harappans indeed moved on to the Gangetic plains after the collapse.But many stayed behind with cultures like Cemetery H.

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mnsr said:

Date of Bishkent is very clear to archaeologists:
"Bishkent Culture is a late Bronze age culture (c 1700-1500 BC) located in Southern Tajikistan." (ref: Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture by Mallory and Adams)
and late Bishkent Culture existed till 9th-8th cen BC.

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Nope,
about 1900 BC Petrovka migrants strated mining copper in Zeravshan valley...
about 1800 BC Andronovo pottery started appearing widely in BMAC countryside...
kurgan cemeteries of Vakhsh and Bishkent type appeared in with pottery that mixed elements with late BMAC and Andronovo traditions...
(ref: The Horse, the Wheel, and Language by David Anthony)

Andronovo phenomenon started expanding towards the South with the Alakul Phase (c 2100-1400 BC).
South of Andronovo are a series of cultures with have either an origin in Andronovo eg Tazabagyab Culture, or represent an amalgam of steppe cultures with the oasis cultures e.g. Bishkent and Vakhsh Culture. (ref: Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture by Mallory and Adams)

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► So the point was if Shortugai collapsed in Late Bronze Age and Andronovo phenomenon was expanding in Late Bronze Age it is very clear that Harappans got replaced with Andronovans. So Shortugai has no role in spreading any culture in Central Asia. Rather Shortugai itself became a Bishkent site during late Bronze Age.

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Also as per OIT proponents, Vedas were compiled before IVC, isn't that make Shortugai irrelevant as other branches of Indo-Europeans should have already migrated out of India before IVC and during IVC only Indo-Aryans were left in IVC.

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The origin of BMAC people from IVC or South Asia is definitely proved wrong by new finds.

At Jeitun, mud brick houses were first occupied c. 6000 BCE. The inhabitants were farmers who kept herds of goats and sheep and grew wheat and barley, with origins in Southwest Asia
(ref: Recent excavations at an early Neolithic site in Southern Turkmenistan by D Harris)
During the Copper Age, there are signs signs people migrated to the region from Central Iran at this time, bringing metallurgy and other innovations.
(ref: The Bronze Age in Khorasan and Transoxiana by Masson and Reports of the Research Groups at the Topoi Plenary Session by Reinhard)

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As far as finding Harappan elements in BMAC is concerned, I never denied that but Harappan elements are also found in Elam and almost from every city of Sumer.
Apart from Harappan we also found Elamite material from BMAC as well. These material only provide the evidence of trade contacts that developed during the urban phase.
Also Harappan animals appear in the motifs of Mesopotamia as well, because animals forms the major portion of Hrappan trade.

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there is a difference between 'staying behind' and expanding towards the west, as late harappans never crossed their limits in the west and north.

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Vajra said:

Not really.Andronovo(especially its sub-branch Fedorovo from 18th-15th century BCE identified as IA by many authors) was still in Siberia then.https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/view/16139

As for the BMAC contacts with Andronovo,Bactrian camels,bricks,similar architectural complexes etc already appear in the Urals before this period as cited even by authors like Kuzmina and Witzel.

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Vajra said:

I've already stated that Shortugai was absorbed into Beshkent culture after 1500 BCE(BMAC also collapsed at this time),but not all authors agree that Andronovans replaced SSVC or Beshkent culture:

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Vajra said:

Well,I don't support OIT,at least not during SSVC phase

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Vajra said:

Yes,I know this! But barley was also cultivated in neolithic Mehrgrah! So the neolithic Bactrian culture and neolithic Mehrgarh must've been related.

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Vajra said:

I don't think SSVC-Mesopotamian links and Elamite-BMAC links were as strong as SSVC-BMAC links.Yes,Indian animals does appear in Mesopotamia,but not an entire SSVC site like Shortugai during BMAC era or BMAC complex in Ahar-Banas culture deep within SSVC zone along with mass bunch of seals which have direct counterparts in BMAC.After all,BMAC was right next door of SSVC....

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Vajra said:

Late Harappans never did,but mature Harappans did

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mnsr said:

Are you talking about the trade between Sintashta and the BMAC ?

Check this statement by David Anthony:
The metal trade between Sintashta and the BMAC for the first time connected the steppe region to the ancient urban civilisations of the Near East: the empires and city-states of Iran and Mesopotamia provided an almost bottomless market for metals. These trade routes later became the vehicle through which horses, chariots and ultimately Indo-Iranian-speaking people entered the Near East from the steppe.

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It is clear that after these trade links it was Sintashta that expanded into Andronovo phenomena not the BMAC.

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I stated Beshkent as an amalgam of Andronovo and BMAC not as its predecessor.


As for Lyonnet's question as why BMAC trade collapsed during late bronze age ? we already agreed in our debate that as per new findings, BMAC links reached as far as Rajasthan and Gujarat during the late bronze age that were limited to just metropolis of Mohenjo Daro and Harappa during the mature phase.

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My point was SSVC phase was not the origin of Proto-Indo-Europeans then the whole debate about expansion of Indo-Europeans from Shortugai is meaningless, isn't it ?

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Please check this statement by Harris, it seems either a migration from Zagros mountains or an indegenous developement but it is nowhere mentioned a connection with Mehrgarh:

Together with similarities of various artifact types such as clay figurines, ceramic and small stone axes with those of Neolithic sites in the Zagros Mountains (Tepe Guran, Tepe Sarab) the agriculture driving lifestyle either arrived through the migration of Neolithic people from the Zagros Mountains or the already established Mesolithic hunter-gatherers adopted the new way of life. (ref: D Harris)

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Well like Shortugai, there are more than half a dozen Harappan trading posts in Eastern Arabia: Al Hili, Qal'at al-Bahrain, Ras al-Hadd, Ras al-Jinz, Sar, Tell Abraq, Umm an-Nar etc.

and BMAC links only reached Ahar Banas during the Late Bronze Age. During the Mature Harappan Phase, Harappan seals were found in all major centers of Sumer, as compare to just one or two seals in BMAC.

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So can we say that Mature Harappans were more extended towards the west as compare to Late Harappans, and Late Harappans actually shrank in the west.

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Vajra said:

Sintashta architecture,usage of bricks,metallurgy,presence of Bactrian camels,artifacts etc as noted even by Kuzmina and Witzel suggests that it was more than just trade links.

And I don't think we have any evidence for a movement from Urals all the way into the Near East....




Yes,Sintashta expanded into wider zone,but there were still close contacts with BMAC



Well,the early dates of Beshlent certainly predates Andronovo.But yes,it had more Bactrian elements.

And 2100 BCE is not late bronze age





LOL I never said Indo-Europeans migrated from Shortugai



Yes,I know this.My friend has suggested a neolithic expansion from Zagros which led to the foundation of BMAC and Mehrgarh.



SSVC contacts with BMAC was much more stronger than the contacts with Middle/Near East.It is not just one or two seals,but many iconographic significance and artifacts reflecting SSVC themes as noted by Sarianidi and others.Ahar-Banas does not belong to late bronze age,both BMAC and SSVC was flourishing during that era.

Also keep an eye on the fire cult and altars,which was common in both cultures and later Indo-Iranians:

Many such altars are found in SSVC sites.




There was still continuity in those regions.

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Aatreya said:

@Vajra, can you please tell me if the burial and worship culture of the BMAC people was:

1) Indigenous or
2) From Andronovans or
3) From SSVC.

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Vajra said:

The culture of BMAC in its mature period was obviously indigenous.But soon after it collapsed,there was change in practices and cultures like Yaz popped up.There is supposed Andronovo acculturation during late BMAC,but BMAC cultural traits are also seen in Urals before this period as I have pointed out in my previous posts.

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Aatreya said:

Thanks @Vajra,

What I understand is that in its mature phase, BMAC contributed to Andronovo culture while in its downfall, it took elements from Andronovo.

However, in her book "The origin of Indo-Iranians", Kuz'mina states "Since the material culture of the aborigines (BMAC) was highly developed and adapted to the ecological environment, the newcomers (Andronovans) adopted in its entirety, the complex of their material culture, while retaining their ethnical distinction in the most important sphere-ideology: in the cults and burial rite."

This conclusion is very similar to the hypothesis of what Aryans did to the so called natives in India. What this would mean is that the Vedic religion is nothing but Andronovan culture! Apparently, throughout their sojourn from Steppes till India, these tough guys maintained their ethnical distinction from the natives, and managed to impose their culture (read language and religion) also. However, when they reached India, they started worshipping the local rivers and mountains, and even said that Aryavarta is the best land! Quite a softening place for the tough guys!

I have yet to see something as profound as the Vedas by any nomadic society.

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Vajra said:

But the most funny part is that none of the vast Vedic corpus have mention of this Aryan saga from the steppes into India which included various dramatic events like the so called acculturation of various cultures on their way.It is quite funny to think that the Vedic people who memorized all of the vast Vedic hymns word by word forgot all about these important events which happened just 2-3 centuries prior to the composition of Rig Veda

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lovehistory said:

Religion in SPM:
The SPM speaks of many religions. Of course many detailed information is given about Vedic practices.

First I quote how the poet described the marriage that took place between Kannagi & Kovalan.

He describes Kannagi as 12 years old daughter of a wealthy trader by name Maanaygan. Her beauty was comparable to the beauty of the God Lakshmi sitting on the lotus flower. Her chastity is comparable to Arundhadhi! (She is the wife of a Vedic rishi)

He describes Kovalan as 16 years old, the son of a very wealthy trader by name Maasthuvaan whose family has been well respected as one of the first families by Chola King. His beauty is like Lord Muruga.

The marriage has been informed to the people of Poombuhaar by the parents. It was done by ...... sitting on an elephant which was well decorated.

The marriage took place on Rohini Nakshtra day and the marriage took place with the help of the brahmin priest who performed the ceremony. The couples followed the procedure shown by the Brahmin and came round the Vedic Pyre.

I have to tell you that the ceremony mentioned are similar to what we are doing today.

There was a ceremony called 'Paaligai' which is performed even today by the ....... This is to remove the 'Dhrushti'. Even that function was mentioned in SPM.

There are other Vedic ceremonies mentioned like Senkuttuvan after his marriage performed some Vedic sacrifices after a king attains victory in a war. This was advised to him by a brahmin by name Maadalan. This Maadalan is from a place called Thalai Sengaanam (Remember this place is of Historical importance where one Pandiyan kingNedunchezhiyan wins over 7 of his enemies and was glorified as Thalai Sengaanathu Seru Vendra Nedunchezhiyan). He comes in the story then and there. He first meets Kovalan on the way to Madurai when he was going on a pilgrimage from his place in South Tamil Nadu by first starting his holy bath at Kanyakumari and going to take bath in the Holy Ganges and in the process he goes to many temples en route like Tiruchi Srirangam, Tirupathi. He then meets Senkuttuvan near Ganges when the war was going on and returns with him to Chera country. It was then he advised him to perform Vedic Sacrifices.

In the process the poet describes many intricate details pertaining to the Vedic Prcatices. He talks about 11 ruthras. He talks about the Vishnus his avathars as Krishna, Rama, Vamana, Narasimha etc.

Information about Sivas burning of Thirupuram, His burning of Manmadha are all given.


What is very important is the importance he had given for the God Indhira. He has dedicated one full chapter for a function called 'Indhira Vizha' which is performed for the welcoming of the spring season. So much detail is given in that chapter one has to read to know full details. It seems there was a temple and statue for Indhira as well during his period. In fact he says that during that function the people purified the statue of Indhira with holy water from River kaveri.

One other important factor to be noted is that it is not only Indhira but equal importance was given to other gods as well like when during the function of 'Indhira Vizha' Vedic sacrifices has been performed in Temples for Siva, Muruga, Balarama, Vishnu. He goes on to say that Vedas has been gifted to the world from Brahma. He also states that functions were carried out for 4 types of Devas who are Vasu, Athiya,Rudhra and Martuhva, and 18 types of Devaganas.

He also states that during that function Jain temples had performed Gifts, Religious advice.

So it goes to show that People have looked at this function as a Socio-religious functions and there seems to be not even an iota of information after Hindu-Jain-Buddhist clash!!!

They even released some prisoners during that period.

There were music, dance performances which shows it seems to be a major function.

Jainism:
Thorough the character Kavundhi Adigal who is a .... Jain monk he explains many details about the Jain tradition.

He says there was a temple in Poombuhaar dedicated for Aruga. In that place there was a seat made of stone 'Chandrakantham' means moon rock. There was a sanga where 5 sects of Jains like Arugas,Sidhas,Ubathiyars, Aasiriyars, and Sadhu meet regularly.

There was an Asoka tree in that Temple. People purifies the deity of Aruga during festivals.

At some other place the poet gives very intricate details about the Jain traditions. During their Journey to Madurai, Kavunthi, Kovalan and Kannagi were given dharshan by some saranars(Can any body explain who is this saranar). And in that detail he gives various names of Mahavir or Aruga whose names are like Sampu, Sankaran, Easan which our current lord Siva has.

It seems that Kavunthi is kept in a very high esteem by the poet that she curses a couple to be become a fox, who mock at the couple Kovalan and Kannagi.

Else where the poet has given many Theological details about the Jain Sect.

Buddhism:
Though many details are not given as the characters which comes in the story does not have Buddhist but still he manages to give details about temple existing for Lord Buddha.

Ajeevagar
One details about this religion is given that when Kannagi's father Manaaygan after knowing that Kovalan died and Kannagi went Heaven become a saint by becoming a Ajeevaga.

In the same line he mentions that Kovalan' father Massathuvaan attained sainthood in Vedic tradition

So it goes to show that even if Kannagi who hails from a vedic family his father could convert to Ajeevagam that too without any compulsion and nothing seems to be any alarming as per the view of the poet.

Tribal Practices:
We also get to know about many tribal people whom Kovalan and Kannagi meet. For instance on his way to Madurai they meet the hilly tribes called 'Vettuvar' means the people from 'Pallai Nilam' which is dry land and as such their profession is decoity since they do not have any resources in their land as explained in Tolkappiyam the Tamil Grammar. As such their god 'Kotravai' is worshiped by them by offering meat, stolen articles, wine etc. And many names of the female goddess 'Kotravai' is given as Sankari,Andhari, Neeli and she is always identified with Parvathi the Shiva's wife as the poet says she was accorded the half of Lord Shiva who consumed the poison. She is also referred to Lord Vishnu when she appeared as a child in Kamsa's palace.

The other Tribal people referred by the poet is the Aayargal or the people who domesticate the cow. There is a full chapter dedicated and as usual their god Vishnu is glorified and all his major avathars are refereed.

The other Tribal 'Kurinchi Nilam' the people of Hilly tribes is also mentioned when Senkuttuvan meets them. Their god Murugan or Sevvel is amptly glorified and aptly referred as the Son of Siva and his exploits of Surapadman.

The last Tribal people 'Neidhal Nilam' the people in and around sea shore is mentioned. Their God Varuna is mentioned.
I shall write a separate article about these tribal people life and detail in future.

Now coming to the conclusion in my opinion I have seen that many Vedic practices, gods which are all mentioned are abundantly available in SPM. I have read SPM 3 times and I must tell you that I have not seen even an iota of any information pertaining to any religious friction between religions. In fact you can see a Jain Monk accompanies a Hindu Couple. The Jain monk ends her life by not taking food when she comes to know that Kovalan and KANNAGI have died.
Also I do not see any social discrimination in vedic system also. Though he gives list of many professionals he hardly mentions any caste names. The classification of Vedic practice at his time is only the Four Varnas.
Even the treatment of untouchability hardly can be seen as we see a wealthy trader like Kovalan leaves his wife in the custody of the Tribal Madhiri who is the cow sheppard.

And Kannagi's father converting to Ajeevaga is a point to be noted that conversion was very casual and it was not seen as some loss and gain to religions.

And Finally I have not seen even one bit of information where there is separate identity of a culture called Dravidian. Whatever I have read in this SPM goes well with the overall picture of the country India. The word 'Dravida' never appears in this voluminous work. But the poet does mention about the word 'Arya' but this is in pure sense of their language and place and nothing else. He does gives the boundary of Tamilagam which he calls for the word Dravida which is now used and he says that it is between Thiruvengadam (Tiruppathi) in the north and Kanyakumari in the south.

And you see people from south to north and vice versa for pilgrimage is mentioned in SPM. For instance you see a person along with is wife comes from Ganges to Pumbuhaar for witnessing the Indhira Vizha and also goes for pilgrimage.

On the other side you see Maadalan a brahmin from south starts his pilgrimage from Kanyakumari and reaches to Ganges for the Holy bath.

I hope I have covered most of the subject with respect to religion.


Good Bye

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lovehistory said:

Religion in SPM

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