The Beginnings of the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1894 to 1906

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You need three things to wage war - money, money and money.
Yes but if the enlisted military personnel and general population aren't motivated to participate in a war then even money isn't going to guarantee victory. During the Vietnam War the US and Australia had the financial means to fight but not the will to continue to fight. Even South Korean troops were getting reluctant to volunteer to fight in Vietnam.
Leftyhunter
 
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You need three things to wage war - money, money and money.
That is paraphrasing Austrian Imperialist Field Marshal Raimondo Montecuccoli in the 17th century.

In regard to naval affairs, before WW I, when the Austro-Hungarian army was lobbying against spending on capital ships for the K.u.K. navy, Franz Josef is supposed to have said "Battleships are cheaper than war."
 
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Yes but if the enlisted military personnel and general population aren't motivated to participate in a war then even money isn't going to guarantee victory. During the Vietnam War the US and Australia had the financial means to fight but not the will to continue to fight. Even South Korean troops were getting reluctant to volunteer to fight in Vietnam.
Leftyhunter
In mentioning Montecuccoli above, there is also the factor of the morale of the troops themselves. Montecuccoli was a military theorist and wrote treatises on the art of war. However, he once said "The art of war is learned in the field, with the men, sweating and freezing." Books went so far, but practical experience in the field enabled Montecuccoli to out maneuver Turenne and Conde in the 1670s.
 
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I know it is post 1906, but what is your opinion of the Kongo class battlecruisers and also was that class based on the design of HMS Tiger which some people claim?
 
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I know it is post 1906, but what is your opinion of the Kongo class battlecruisers and also was that class based on the design of HMS Tiger which some people claim?
I don't have a problem discussing ships or navies after 1906. It was just a timeline that brought the IJN into the modern naval environment, that's all..

AFAIK, Kongo was commissioned before HMS Tiger (maybe a year or two earlier?). The ships are similar in appearance and armament. I am not sure of the naval architect. Actually, I had not heard that there was such a connection. Interesting though.
 
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That is paraphrasing Austrian Imperialist Field Marshal Raimondo Montecuccoli in the 17th century.

In regard to naval affairs, before WW I, when the Austro-Hungarian army was lobbying against spending on capital ships for the K.u.K. navy, Franz Josef is supposed to have said "Battleships are cheaper than war."
In our context though the thing to remember is:

The Japanese not only fully financed the six six plan, they sped it up and completed it years early

The Russians, on the other hand, listened to Witte instead and stretched out the Tyrtov plan. Instead of having the Borodino class finished by January 1, 1903. the Slava wasn't ready to sail with the task force to Tsushima in 1904.

There were other opportunities as well- the Russians passed on the Argentine cruisers allowing Japan to buy them instead

For the flip side of the Russo-Japanese War see;

Russian Imperialism and Naval Power: Military Strategy and the Build-up to the Russo-Japanese War​

Nicholas Papastratigakis

forgot the link
 
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England
AFAIK, Kongo was commissioned before HMS Tiger (maybe a year or two earlier?). The ships are similar in appearance and armament. I am not sure of the naval architect. Actually, I had not heard that there was such a connection. Interesting though
I was wrong. Actually, the Kongo was designed by Sir George Thurston as a modified version of Reshadieh, a battleship Thurston had designed for the Turkish Navy which was seized by the British on the outbreak of WWI and entered service as HMS Erin. The Kongo, the lead ship of the class was built by Vickers at Barrow, the other three in the class being built in Japanese yards. The design of the Kongo so impressed the British Admiralty that the design of the Tiger was modified along the lines of the Japanese ships. During WWI, the British requested the loan of the Kongos but this the Japanese refused.
 
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The Kongo, the lead ship of the class was built by Vickers at Barrow, the other three in the class being built in Japanese yards.
The four Kongos were fine ships, but not well armored. As built, they were all approximately 28,000 tons displacement. When reconstructed and reclassified as fast battleships, around 4,000 tons of additional armor was worked in. Torpedo bulges and new boilers and machinery added to the displacement, in the 1930s, of about 36,000 tons. They were capable of 30 knots and were the only heavy units that could operate with the aircraft carriers. These fast battleships were very impressive for their day and they were heavily used in the early stages of WW II.
 
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Netherlands
What is also interesting about the Japanese navy that in stead of keeping up with the rest they went on the innovative path themselves. Even though they didn't see much action in WW1 (relatively speaking), they innovated/experimented with planes in combination with the navy. They were the first to start building carriers after the war as well. But also their torpedo/sub innovations are not to be underestimated.

Ie in the previously mentioned Dutch response one of the options on the table was to rely entirely on hit and run tactics. One of the reasons was that they didn't like their odds against the battleships and this got worse when they got carriers. The hit and run would rely on torpedo boats and subs (and planes for reconnaissance) and would be aimed at stopping troop transport to Indonesia or if that failed stop them getting supplies.
 
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Türkiye
In mentioning Montecuccoli above, there is also the factor of the morale of the troops themselves. Montecuccoli was a military theorist and wrote treatises on the art of war. However, he once said "The art of war is learned in the field, with the men, sweating and freezing." Books went so far, but practical experience in the field enabled Montecuccoli to out maneuver Turenne and Conde in the 1670s.
In 1673 he defeated Turenne in a battle of manoeuvres, but never met Conde in 1673.
 
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A post on the war prizes the IJN gained from the Russian defeat at Port Arthur, Chemulpo Bay and Tsushima seems in order. No need to go into details, but here are the important ships taken into the Japanese fleet after 1905:

Battleships:

1. Coast defense battleships at Port Arthur -

Imperator Nicolai I (in service 1893) - Japanese name Iki.
General-Admiral Apraxin (1898) - Okinoshima.
Admiral Senyavin (1895) - Minoshima.

2. Sea-going battleships -

Poltava (1898) - Tango.
Peresviet (1901) - Sagami.
Pobieda (1902) - Suwo.
Retvizan (1902) - Hizen.
Orel (1904) - Iwami.

Cruisers:

Bayan, armored cruiser (1902) - Aso.
Varyag, protected cruiser (1900) - Soya.
Novik, protected cruiser (1902) - Sutsuya.
Pallada, scout cruiser (1902) - Tsugaru.

Notes:

-- Other than two 400 ton torpedo gunboats, it does not appear that any destroyers or other craft were taken into the IJN.
-- Most of these ships were used for a time as training ships, except for the battleships Hizen and Iwami. They both served as parts of Japanese battle divisions through the beginning of WW I.
-- It is interesting that the Japanese considered the battleship Hizen and the cruiser Soya the best of the prizes. Both of these ships were built in Philadelphia at William Cramp & Sons at a time when all Russian shipyards were at full capacity at the turn of the 20th century.
-- The other ships mostly were used as guard ships or for administrative duties such as receiving ships, etc.
 
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They might have been blown up at Jutland. "There's something wrong with our bloody ships today."

What was wrong with them was that they were using ammo as furniture or they were borderline obsolete units that had very thin armor. Since there were so few battlecruisers it made sense for the British to use them all opposed to the Dreadnoughts which could be easily phased out of service.

The Kongos would have likely taken a little beating and been fine. Tiger was not close to going down though it took a little mauling there.
 
Joined Oct 2014
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United States
A post on the war prizes the IJN gained from the Russian defeat at Port Arthur, Chemulpo Bay and Tsushima seems in order. No need to go into details, but here are the important ships taken into the Japanese fleet after 1905:

Battleships:

1. Coast defense battleships at Port Arthur -

Imperator Nicolai I (in service 1893) - Japanese name Iki.
General-Admiral Apraxin (1898) - Okinoshima.
Admiral Senyavin (1895) - Minoshima.

2. Sea-going battleships -

Poltava (1898) - Tango.
Peresviet (1901) - Sagami.
Pobieda (1902) - Suwo.
Retvizan (1902) - Hizen.
Orel (1904) - Iwami.

Cruisers:

Bayan, armored cruiser (1902) - Aso.
Varyag, protected cruiser (1900) - Soya.
Novik, protected cruiser (1902) - Sutsuya.
Pallada, scout cruiser (1902) - Tsugaru.

Notes:

-- Other than two 400 ton torpedo gunboats, it does not appear that any destroyers or other craft were taken into the IJN.
-- Most of these ships were used for a time as training ships, except for the battleships Hizen and Iwami. They both served as parts of Japanese battle divisions through the beginning of WW I.
-- It is interesting that the Japanese considered the battleship Hizen and the cruiser Soya the best of the prizes. Both of these ships were built in Philadelphia at William Cramp & Sons at a time when all Russian shipyards were at full capacity at the turn of the 20th century.
-- The other ships mostly were used as guard ships or for administrative duties such as receiving ships, etc.
Less than five years after Tsushima, every ship the Russians and the Japanese had in that war was hopelessly obsolete. The pace of technological change was extremely rapid at the time.
 
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NYC
Less than five years after Tsushima, every ship the Russians and the Japanese had in that war was hopelessly obsolete. The pace of technological change was extremely rapid at the time.

As frontline combat units yes. In terms of shelling things and miscellaneous tasks not so much. The backbone of Britains supremacy was having an endless supply of former obsolete capital ships that could be used for miscellaneous tasks.
 
Joined Jul 2009
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Less than five years after Tsushima, every ship the Russians and the Japanese had in that war was hopelessly obsolete. The pace of technological change was extremely rapid at the time.
You are correct, no doubt. However, the fleet materiel of all other navies was similarly affected. The pre-dreadnought battleships continued in commission for many years after 1905, and much technology did not change drastically for quite a few years after Dreadnought in 1906. Even Dreadnought used coal as her fuel source, the main innovation there being turbine propulsion for a battleship. Turbines were not new but they were mostly used for destroyers and fast cruisers before HMS Dreadnought, as well as for passenger ships.

Warships continued to be built with triple expansion engines for years. The USN Nevada-class BBs were commissioned about 1916 IIRC. Nevada had steam turbines and Oklahoma had triple expansion engines. As Emperor says in post #37, the old ships did have uses. As guard ships, for coastal defense or as training ships, and as gun platforms they had temporary value.
 
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United States
As frontline combat units yes. In terms of shelling things and miscellaneous tasks not so much. The backbone of Britains supremacy was having an endless supply of former obsolete capital ships that could be used for miscellaneous tasks.
The backbone of British naval supremacy was the French and Italian fleets backed by the Russian army. Against Germany and Austria (both of whom were easily bottled up by geography) uses could be found for old junk- though a destroyer could handle them cheaper and better.

Against a power with access to the open seas, like the US, they were deathtraps
You are correct, no doubt. However, the fleet materiel of all other navies was similarly affected. The pre-dreadnought battleships continued in commission for many years after 1905, and much technology did not change drastically for quite a few years after Dreadnought in 1906. Even Dreadnought used coal as her fuel source, the main innovation there being turbine propulsion for a battleship. Turbines were not new but they were mostly used for destroyers and fast cruisers before HMS Dreadnought, as well as for passenger ships.

Warships continued to be built with triple expansion engines for years. The USN Nevada-class BBs were commissioned about 1916 IIRC. Nevada had steam turbines and Oklahoma had triple expansion engines. As Emperor says in post #37, the old ships did have uses. As guard ships, for coastal defense or as training ships, and as gun platforms they had temporary value.
That may be true but a 7,800 ton armored cruiser capable of 21 knots is of little value in 1914. Jacky Fisher's greatest reform was scrapping the hundreds of worthless junk ships the British had. Ten years later, the relics were back draining men, material and the financial resources of the British fleet.

Everyone had the problems- except for the Russians who had almost all of their junk sunk in 1905
 

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