The dating of the battle of Hafrsforjd.

Mr Higson · Dec 3, 2016

This one always intrigues me. Dating can be anything from 872 to 900 AD. I'm of the opinion that it might have been later than that. The men from the 'Edge' to Sognefjord gathered to oppose Harald Finehair's tyranny. This could have meant a fleet as strong as 8,000 in men. One wonders what numbers Shaggy had at his disposal? He certainly had the better professionals as his Hirdmen. I wonder how he financed it?
Shaggy made this rebellious region his personal kingdom. No doubt because it required his close personal attention. In other places he had puppet rulers. This meant a rough time for anyone who had opposed him as he presided over law gatherings. And the claim is a flood of men left Norway to impact on other places.

Mr Higson · Dec 6, 2016

No takers? We know of the Norse "Storm" of 917 AD from later Medieval sources. They said Lancashire became filled with 'Vikings'. We have proof on the ground of not merely the rule of an Anglo-Saxon village by a Norseman, where he changed the name to suit himself. But some regions were every feature became Norse in name. This suggests the settlement of Norse commoners as well as Lords.
The dynamic is easy to understand. The English armies assaulted Danish Northumbria and emerged with upper hand only just. The Norse saw the two other fish had weakened themselves in the process....and took advantage. But how long had they waited in the Irish ports?
The very irony is the son of man who they hated, and the husband of the women who they hated even more came to rule. Eric Bloodaxe if convention was to be believed, became the "Hammer of Scots". A hired thug to scare the enemy Scots of a people that had grown soft in England....rather quickly! If Boodaxe's birthdate is to be believed, 885 AD. He seems a bit chipper to be running around scaring the Scots and raising the said children on heavy spears to watch them slide down and at 69 years. And then to have a young family at said age with the sorceress Gunnhild. It seems all topsy-turvey and needs a steam train tunnel running through to make it stick.
Somehow the conventional dating seems all wrong. But not impossible!

Mr Higson · Dec 9, 2016

Still no takers? Some melodic death metal that gives Shaggy a good plug!

Mr Higson · Dec 11, 2016

Hmmm! I guess the Danes and Norse will continue to speculate as to who Rollo belongs to? Oddly the old Parsival legend comes out on the side of Norway. Parsival is believed to have been based on the life of Charles the Simple. The Gawain of the story seems to be Rollo, and story states he is Norwegian in origin. In the story Parsival is a brilliant warrior who has nobody to match him. But he is out of control and too readily reacts to sensations. The more experienced Gawain catches up with him and teaches Parsival to be more circumspect and rational.

These skeletons have nothing to do with Rollo. The skeletons in the sarcophagus are in fact much older, one from 250-300 years before our era and the other from around the year 700, that is, before the Viking era, says historian and project initiator Sturla Ellingvåg from Foundation explico to news agency NTB.

Skeletal shock for Norwegian researchers at Viking hunting - Norway Today

Bart Dale · Dec 21, 2016

Mr Higson said:
This one always intrigues me. Dating can be anything from 872 to 900 AD. I'm of the opinion that it might have been later than that. The men from the 'Edge' to Sognefjord gathered to oppose Harald Finehair's tyranny. This could have meant a fleet as strong as 8,000 in men. One wonders what numbers Shaggy had at his disposal? He certainly had the better professionals as his Hirdmen. I wonder how he financed it?
Shaggy made this rebellious region his personal kingdom. No doubt because it required his close personal attention. In other places he had puppet rulers. This meant a rough time for anyone who had opposed him as he presided over law gatherings. And the claim is a flood of men left Norway to impact on other places.

Given that both dates derive from dating backwards from sagas, I don't think a later date is unreasonable. However a later date wouldn't mesh as well with the settlement of Iceland. By 930 it was supposed to have mostly complete. and a date later than 900 wouldn't leave much time to settle Iceland as a result of the battle, which is a traditional trigger for the settlement of Iceland.

Bart Dale · Dec 21, 2016

Mr Higson said:
Hmmm! I guess the Danes and Norse will continue to speculate as to who Rollo belongs to? Oddly the old Parsival legend comes out on the side of Norway. Parsival is believed to have been based on the life of Charles the Simple. The Gawain of the story seems to be Rollo, and story states he is Norwegian in origin. In the story Parsival is a brilliant warrior who has nobody to match him. But he is out of control and too readily reacts to sensations. The more experienced Gawain catches up with him and teaches Parsival to be more circumspect and rational.
Skeletal shock for Norwegian researchers at Viking hunting - Norway Today

The oldest biography has him as Danish, and that biography was commisioned by descendant of Rollo, and closer in time Rollo than any of the Norwegian claims.

It is interesting that neither of the bodies that were supposed to be in the graves were the correct bodies. Makes you wonder what happened? Did the bodies get lost, and other, older bodies get substituted instead? One sounds like it was a Celtic chieftain - perhaps when they were looking for the body of the duke, they discovered the chieftain body, and assumed it was the duke's body, due to the rich attire of the body?

Mr Higson · Dec 24, 2016

Bart Dale said:
Given that both dates derive from dating backwards from sagas, I don't think a later date is unreasonable. However a later date wouldn't mesh as well with the settlement of Iceland. By 930 it was supposed to have mostly complete. and a date later than 900 wouldn't leave much time to settle Iceland as a result of the battle, which is a traditional trigger for the settlement of Iceland.

The settlement of Iceland is a bit tricky. The Saga propaganda would have us believe that proud warrior chieftains, disdaining royal authority. Settled down in Iceland and went from strength to strength. Sterling stuff....even the American's would approve! But all histories of attempted settlement of alien landscapes point to a propensity for disaster. Until a point is reached where the rules of the particular landscape are understood. And numbers and expertise prevail. There is evidence for a strong settlement of Iceland in the 10th century. There is also evidence for attempts at European colonization of Iceland going back to the migration age. It seems these earlier attempts went awry. Another claim is Irish hermits were already living in the place when the Norsemen arrived. It seems to have been largely a male migration. Only the Chieftains and Thegns been wealthy enough to bring their wives. The common men it seems by genetic evidence had to content themselves with kidnapped Gaelic ...... The battle of Hafrsforjd offers an interesting perspective. In this case 8,000 of the "usual suspects" would have gathered to oppose Shaggy. The usual suspects being the men from the Edge to the Sogn. If 5,000 of these survived and had to flee Shaggies wrath, then they would have brought with them a wealth of expertise. Expertise in how to order men and their crafts. Usually such men would be a success in their own country, except they incurred Shaggies wrath. Such men could endure a few setbacks and then win over them. I find Shaggies conquest of Norway and the settlement of Iceland as the Sagas tell, all a bit too romantic. There is another story here I believe.

The darnest thing is how Shaggy financed his venture?

Mr Higson · Dec 26, 2016

Looks like Shaggies earlier acquisitions got him the main towns, a source of wealth I guess. Then the men of the Fold were industrious it seems, if not the best fighters. And even a town for the bright, pretty and nice people up north. Then he went for the showdown with the shiftless, mean, ugly and vicious lot on the western coast. But against these he arrayed the professional Hird. Then spent the rest of his life trying to make them shape up. One wonders what treatment was in store for any man who took up arms against him? Would such a man sit at home, guts in a knot? I find the romantic story of the decade tour-de-force a little unsatisfactory.

starkodder · Dec 27, 2016

Mr Higson said:
Looks like Shaggies earlier acquisitions got him the main towns, a source of wealth I guess. Then the men of the Fold were industrious it seems, if not the best fighters. And even a town for the bright, pretty and nice people up north. Then he went for the showdown with the shiftless, mean, ugly and vicious lot on the western coast. But against these he arrayed the professional Hird. Then spent the rest of his life trying to make them shape up. One wonders what treatment was in store for any man who took up arms against him? Would such a man sit at home, guts in a knot? I find the romantic story of the decade tour-de-force a little unsatisfactory.

This map doesn't show towns at 900 AD. Some are younger.

Mr Higson · Dec 27, 2016

starkodder said:
This map doesn't show towns at 900 AD. Some are younger.

Yes, I think you are right. I believe Oslo was a later creation. It appears the only one that might have existed in Shaggies time was Kaupang. This was his ancestral seat. At the battle of Hafrsfjord (OMG, I misspelled the name in the title) his opposition might have been 8,000 strong. But against these what could he mount? How strong was his Hird. In the 11th century the Royal Hird was 240 strong. Half of these kept quarter with the king. The other half on external missions and they rotated. 8,000 of the most vicious men in this part of the world....how could they lose? Did they take the wrong pills? The men of the Edge were the worst....they fought like wildcats?
Something is wrong about the traditional story. That would have us believe that Shaggy was some sort of Norse 'Ramesses II', that lasted so long. It sounds all too epic. We need Victor Mature for things like this?

starkodder · Dec 28, 2016

Mr Higson said:
Yes, I think you are right. I believe Oslo was a later creation. It appears the only one that might have existed in Shaggies time was Kaupang. This was his ancestral seat. At the battle of Hafrsfjord (OMG, I misspelled the name in the title) his opposition might have been 8,000 strong. But against these what could he mount? How strong was his Hird. In the 11th century the Royal Hird was 240 strong. Half of these kept quarter with the king. The other half on external missions and they rotated. 8,000 of the most vicious men in this part of the world....how could they lose? Did they take the wrong pills? The men of the Edge were the worst....they fought like wildcats?
Something is wrong about the traditional story. That would have us believe that Shaggy was some sort of Norse 'Ramesses II', that lasted so long. It sounds all too epic. We need Victor Mature for things like this?

Lund (where I live), Copenhagen, Roskilde, Sigtuna etc were later than 900 AD.

Mr Higson · Jan 1, 2017

starkodder said:
Lund (where I live), Copenhagen, Roskilde, Sigtuna etc were later than 900 AD.

I would assume Lund a dull place. I knew a man who studied at Lund and later ran the Old Norse department at Melbourne Uni. That was 30 years ago. He was a sympathetic man, even remarkably so. But dull in a way, so staid!
Now even Melbourne would be far more exciting. Even legends of giant worms in the koo-wee-rup swamp a mild travel from were I live. Now the Danish archipelago offers thrills at every corner....and more affordable beer. But as long as people don't know you're from Lund, you should be right. lol.

starkodder · Jan 1, 2017

Mr Higson said:
I would assume Lund a dull place. I knew a man who studied at Lund and later ran the Old Norse department at Melbourne Uni. That was 30 years ago. He was a sympathetic man, even remarkably so. But dull in a way, so staid!
Now even Melbourne would be far more exciting. Even legends of giant worms in the koo-wee-rup swamp a mild travel from were I live. Now the Danish archipelago offers thrills at every corner....and more affordable beer. But as long as people don't know you're from Lund, you should be right. lol.

Hardly, we have runestones in the middle of town.

Mr Higson · Jan 1, 2017

starkodder said:
Hardly, we have runestones in the middle of town.

Runestones? Come now, I showed you images of the Gosforth cross, man! That's like the holy grail of Norse mythology....it's mega man! Runestones is like comparing a Ford model T with an Abram's tank!

The Gosforth cross is like perfectly chiseled man! It looks perfectly ..... even by today's standards. Now some Hiberno-Norseman has this thing made in theory as gave-marker. It's like somebody gave God's mobile number! Was somebody buried? What kind of crazy is this? Somebody has a grave marker with the code of Ragnarok. Like, would a Christian have a grave marker with the images of the Apocalypse? There's the remains of another cross featuring Thor fishing for the midgard serpent. But the rest is missing.

The dating of Hafrsfjord is bit of a mystery. Hakon the Good ascended the Norwegian throne as a teenager. But how old was his eldest brother? If Hafrsfjord occurred around 900 AD, that would put Bloodaxe in his early 30's. This seems more likely than the earlier date conceptualizations.

Does time change space?....it seems it does? But does space change time as well? A century later from the same region we have Brodir of Man. A man who was a christian cleric, but then he went pagan. What turned him back...what did he see?

starkodder · Jan 2, 2017

Mr Higson said:
Runestones? Come now, I showed you images of the Gosforth cross, man! That's like the holy grail of Norse mythology....it's mega man! Runestones is like comparing a Ford model T with an Abram's tank!

The Gosforth cross is like perfectly chiseled man! It looks perfectly ..... even by today's standards. Now some Hiberno-Norseman has this thing made in theory as gave-marker. It's like somebody gave God's mobile number! Was somebody buried? What kind of crazy is this? Somebody has a grave marker with the code of Ragnarok. Like, would a Christian have a grave marker with the images of the Apocalypse? There's the remains of another cross featuring Thor fishing for the midgard serpent. But the rest is missing.

The dating of Hafrsfjord is bit of a mystery. Hakon the Good ascended the Norwegian throne as a teenager. But how old was his eldest brother? If Hafrsfjord occurred around 900 AD, that would put Bloodaxe in his early 30's. This seems more likely than the earlier date conceptualizations.

Does time change space?....it seems it does? But does space change time as well? A century later from the same region we have Brodir of Man. A man who was a christian cleric, but then he went pagan. What turned him back...what did he see?

Sure. Different cultures.

Mr Higson · Jan 2, 2017

starkodder said:
Sure. Different cultures.

Nothing rattles your staid demeanor, does it? You're surely from Lund!

starkodder · Jan 2, 2017

Mr Higson said:
Nothing rattles your staid demeanor, does it? You're surely from Lund!

Whatever Mr Higson. I never compared the two, you did.

Regarding the dating of Hafrsfjord: sometimes one have to accept that there is no certain answer.

Mr Higson · Jan 2, 2017

starkodder said:
Whatever Mr Higson. I never compared the two, you did.

Regarding the dating of Hafrsfjord: sometimes one have to accept that there is no certain answer.

Well obviously, the date is speculated on by academics. But that is not the question. I was curious about anybody else's speculations.

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