The Four West African Lions

Who was more influential?

  • Sundiate Keita

    Votes: 3 8.1%
  • Mansa Musa

    Votes: 21 56.8%
  • Sunni Ali Ber

    Votes: 3 8.1%
  • Askia Muhammad

    Votes: 10 27.0%

  • Total voters
    37
Joined Jun 2013
996 Posts | 305+
Ancient city of Kilwa
This is NOT a battle thread, but who was more influential to modern culture and consciousness. Another thread from a different site inspired me to create this thread.

Sundiata Keita
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-Sundiata started Mali and everything that came as a result of this empire can be traced back to him.

Mansa Musa
325px-Mansa_Musa.jpg


-Huge journey to Mecca. One of the richest man in history. Literally put Western Sudanic kingdoms and West Africa on the map.

Sunni Ali Ber
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-Responsible for the largest empire in African history.

Askia Muhammad
1551791-askia_diplo.jpg

-Responsible for Songhai's cultural revival. His policies resulted in a rapid expansion of trade with Europe and Asia, the creation of many schools, and made Islam an integral part of the empire. Brought Timbuktu to new heights.

Who was more influential?
 
Joined Sep 2012
339 Posts | 0+
Brazil
To outsiders, Mansa Musa is the best well known. His voyage put the idea of unknown rich and powerful African kingdoms in the minds of many. Even to this day he is a powerful argument against the pervasive idea of Sub-Saharan Africa as a land perpetual poverty and warfare between small tribal societies.
 
Joined Jul 2013
46 Posts | 1+
Nova Scotia
From my admittedly eurocentric cultural POV, Mansa Musa.
 
Joined Jul 2013
106 Posts | 33+
Canada
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Mansa Musa is arguably the most famous of the men listed here, and possibly the most famous pre-colonial African ruler. He spread the fame of Mali to the rest of the Muslim world, as well as the Mediterranean and Europe. His legacy lasted for centuries and put sub-Saharan Africa on the map, for non-Africans who were yet to travel beyond the Sahara.

The Empire of Mali, continuing the tradition of West African savannah states was sort of a blue-print for many later states in the area, and it spread its influence wide.

So I voted for Mansa Musa.

However, I think Sundiata deserves an honorable mention due to the fact that he pretty much founded Mali and he survives in many legends, especially for the local people. For anyone who likes legends, read his Epic of Sundiata, it's really cool, in the same vein as the tales of ancient Greek heroes. With no Sundiata, we'd have no Mansa Musa and many other figures.

That being said, the Songhay Empire is fairly underrated. I always had a soft spot for it....I always admired its complex political and government structure.
 
Joined Jun 2013
996 Posts | 305+
Ancient city of Kilwa
Mansa Musa is arguably the most famous of the men listed here, and possibly the most famous pre-colonial African ruler. He spread the fame of Mali to the rest of the Muslim world, as well as the Mediterranean and Europe. His legacy lasted for centuries and put sub-Saharan Africa on the map, for non-Africans who were yet to travel beyond the Sahara.

The Empire of Mali, continuing the tradition of West African savannah states was sort of a blue-print for many later states in the area, and it spread its influence wide.

So I voted for Mansa Musa.

However, I think Sundiata deserves an honorable mention due to the fact that he pretty much founded Mali and he survives in many legends, especially for the local people. For anyone who likes legends, read his Epic of Sundiata, it's really cool, in the same vein as the tales of ancient Greek heroes. With no Sundiata, we'd have no Mansa Musa and many other figures.

That being said, the Songhay Empire is fairly underrated. I always had a soft spot for it....I always admired its complex political and government structure.

Can you link sources on Songhai's Political and government structure? :)

Much appreciated.
 
Joined May 2013
1,203 Posts | 274+
SOMEWHERE
The state of mali was founded in 1050 a.d. but later Sundiata created the empire.
 
Joined Sep 2012
2,738 Posts | 2+
Dalmatia Interior
Could anyone post short summary on states and rulers mentioned in the OP? I never heard of any ruler except Mansa Musa.
 
Joined Jun 2013
996 Posts | 305+
Ancient city of Kilwa
Could anyone post short summary on states and rulers mentioned in the OP? I never heard of any ruler except Mansa Musa.

This video will tell you everything you need to know about the western Sudanic kingdoms and four people listed all in a nutshell.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqB5LYNPes4]Western African Kingdom (Ghana,Mali and Songhay) - YouTube[/ame]



Enjoy.
 
Joined Jun 2013
996 Posts | 305+
Ancient city of Kilwa
For those who don't know Western Sudanic or Western Sudan is an old word for West African kingdoms/empires. Those people use to be called Sudanese.
 
Joined Oct 2012
3,562 Posts | 807+
Z
Askia Muhammad
1551791-askia_diplo.jpg

-Responsible for Songhai's cultural revival. His policies resulted in a rapid expansion of trade with Europe and Asia, the creation of many schools, and made Islam an integral part of the empire. Brought Timbuktu to new heights.

The Civ V picture of Askia really doesn't mix well with the description of his reign. It's hard to reconcile the image of a man with a big sword in front of a burning city with a man whose reign saw the resurgence of Songhai's culture and the founding of schools.

Excuse my insolence, I just had to point that out. :think:
 
Joined Jun 2013
996 Posts | 305+
Ancient city of Kilwa
The Civ V picture of Askia really doesn't mix well with the description of his reign. It's hard to reconcile the image of a man with a big sword in front of a burning city with a man whose reign saw the resurgence of Songhai's culture and the founding of schools.

Excuse my insolence, I just had to point that out. :think:

Under Askia's rule thats when the Songhai empire really started to expand taking over many territories/states like Kano. Remember Askia came to power by force(correct me if I am wring), by challenging the former ruler.

Not saying he was a violent man, but he was a general of Songhai before he came ruler.
 
Joined Jul 2013
106 Posts | 33+
Canada
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Can you link sources on Songhai's Political and government structure? :)

Much appreciated.
Sure. I found the following in UNESCO's General History of Africa, Vol.4 that's entirely free to download here: General History of Africa | United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization

The officials of the central government formed the imperial council, which discussed all the problems of the empire. A chancellor-secretary took the minutes of the council, dealt with the sovereign's correspondence, and saw to the drawing up and execution of his charters.

The hi koi was the 'master of the water' or commander of the fleet. His function was one of the oldest and most important, because of the role played by the Niger in the life of ancient Songhay. The hi koi became one of the highest dignitaries of court, a kind of minister of home affairs who controlled the governors of the provinces.

The fari mondzo or mondzo was the minister of agriculture. It is very likely that he was concerned with the management of the many imperial estates which were scattered throughout the empire and which brought in large revenues every year [….] Certainly the fari mondzo had to settle disputes over land. Similar functions were performed by the hari farma (commissioner of waters and lakes), the sao farma (commissioner of forests), and the wanei farma, who was responsible for property.

The kalissa farma was responsible for guarding the treasury and for the sovereign's expenses. There is no doubt that he was in charge of the treasury of coins set up by Askiya Däwüd.

[Also there were the] korei farma, the minister in charge of white foreigners, and the imperial commissioners sent periodically by the emperor into the provinces to settle urgent problems, to levy special duties on the traders of the big towns or to supervise local officials and provincial administrators.

The Songhay adopted two systems of government according to the territories concerned. The first group comprised those conquered provinces which were governed by chiefs appointed by the askiya and subject at any moment to dismissal by him. These governors, who formed a hierarchy, exercised all sovereign power except for justice, which was entrusted to the kadi. They were known by the titles of fari, farma or farba, derived from the Mandingo institution of farin or governor.

The empire was divided into two major provinces, Kurmina in the west and Dendi in the south-east. The post of kurmina fari or kanfari was held, with very few exceptions, by princes of the royal blood and indeed often by the imperial crown-prince. The kurmina fari,who lived at Tendirma, ranked second in the state. We do not know exactly what the limits of his jurisdiction were. He seems to have been in charge of all the provinces west of Timbuktu[….]

The Dendi Fari, the governor of Dendi, supervised all the provinces of Dendi, that is, the south-eastern part of the empire. He ranked third in the state[….] He was responsible for the defence of the empire's southern borderlands. Other secondary provinces were governed by chiefs appointed by the askiya. These included the Bara Koi, the Dirma Koi, the Hombori Koi, the Arabinda Farma, the Benga Farma, the Kala Sha and the Baghena Farma[….]

Trading towns like Timbuktu, Jenne, Teghazza and Walata enjoyed a certain autonomy under their koi or mondzo chiefs. Their commercial and craft activities and the size of their population required the presence of many administrative officials. In Timbuktu, besides the kadi responsible for justice and the Timbuktu Koi, or headman, there was a large staff which included the asara mondzo - a kind of superintendent responsible for policing markets and towns and for carrying out the sentences passed by the kadi — weights and measures inspectors, tax inspectors in the markets, customs officials from Kabara, masters of the various guilds, the chiefs of the various ethnic subdivisions (grouped together by neighbourhoods) and those in charge of the straw huts of the suburbs. All these constituted the kernel of an efficient administration in the large towns.
As you can see, the Songhay administration, like many other West African states, were a mixture of Islamic and traditional African ideas. The Songhay governmental and political structure was based on the Mali model, but as far as I know it was a bit more centralized and advanced, as they took it a step further.
 
Joined Jul 2013
106 Posts | 33+
Canada
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Oh and I can't help but think that picture of Askia Muhammad looks like Lebron James holding a sword, haha!

Anyways, as far as I know, the Songhay people were warriors and had a warrior-culture at the time, that was relaxed a bit as Islam became more dominant. Askia Muhammad was a very pious Muslim and helped promote Islam in his country by building mosques and enforcing Sharia law (however, Islam was always practiced by a minority of the population: those in the cities. Most of the population, living in rural areas, stuck to traditional beliefs). Also, he promoted education and trade. But he was also a conqueror, who helped extend the boundaries of the empire further during his reign (around 1493-1528).

Of interesting note is Askia Muhammad was of the Soninke ethnic group (more closely related to the Mande of Mali), not the dominant Songhay majority.

During his pilgrimage to Mecca:
In Cairo, he visited one of the pillars of Islam, the grand master of al-Azhar, al-Suyuti, who gave him advice on government. He purchased a concession in Mecca for pilgrims from the Sudan and obtained from the sharif of Mecca the title and insignia of caliph of the Sudan, and the appointment of an ambassador, Sharif al-Sakli, who was sent to his empire. He thus returned to the Sudan legitimized in Muslim eyes and with his power universally acknowledged.
His predecessor, Sonni Ali, was also a very competent and successful ruler, but in later times (when Islam grew stronger among the Songhay), he's not remembered as such a great person because he was not a faithful Muslim compared to Askia Muhammad.
 
Joined Jun 2013
996 Posts | 305+
Ancient city of Kilwa
@blingdogg

Thanks! I appreciate it. :cool:

Yeah the Songhai Empire had a warrior like culture. But I've been trying to find info on the Songhai empire government style for a while. Again thanks.
 
Joined Mar 2012
3,316 Posts | 62+
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The world might be more familiar with my namesake mansamusa. The Islamic world especially because mansamusa tried to be a good moslem, making the pilgrimage to Mecca and introducing more Islamic culture. However the people of Mali seem to have more respect for Sundiata. He is their great founding Mythic hero, their version of Achilles or Odysseus. They even have a several centuries old epic tradition dedidicated to him:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Sundiata-Longman-African-Writers-Series/dp/0582264758"]Sundiata: An Epic of Old Mali, Longman African Writers Series: D. T. Niane: 9780582264755: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71ZV7MF8DML.@@AMEPARAM@@71ZV7MF8DML[/ame]
 
Joined Jul 2013
106 Posts | 33+
Canada
@blingdogg

Thanks! I appreciate it. :cool:

Yeah the Songhai Empire had a warrior like culture. But I've been trying to find info on the Songhai empire government style for a while. Again thanks.
No problem! Glad I could help. :D
 
Joined Sep 2012
2,738 Posts | 2+
Dalmatia Interior
You welcome. :)

Fascinating! Aboubacar II according to this video, tried to reach the end of the Atlantic ocean, but either he died at sea, either he reached Americas and didn't return! I had no idea about Western Africa as a science center too. I've heard of famous libraries in Mali, but those were already islamic. If you have any more videos, please post here. :)
 

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