The Great Spanish Viictories

Joined Jan 2017
21 Posts | 0+
Spain
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I'm sick because I see that some people make fun about the spanish military history and that's because spanish defeats like the Spanish Armada (the one time that when our navy lost and all the world know it) have been exagerated, so to equilibrate the balance I'll present you a fey Spanish Victories

The Battle of Cerignola
In 1503 France and Spain were fighting for the Kingdom of Naples.
The count of Guisa comanded 9500 french soldiers with 26 pieces of artillery, against him Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba, "The Great Captain" commanded 9000 spaniards and 13 pieces of artillery. The battle lasted 1 hour, the french suffered 4000 deaths, the spaniards only 100, Guisa died and the Kingdom of Naples is for Spain

The Battle of Biocca in 1522
Franco-Swiss Army: 19000 men
Spanish Army: 18000 men
French-Siwss losses: 3000 swiss pikemans killed
Spanish losses: 1 spanish soldier kicked by a mule


The Battle of Pavia
In 1525 France and Spain were again in war and a French army of 39000 men with 53 cannons commanded by Francis I of France invaded the north of Italy and Sieged Pavia defended by 6000 Spaniards under the command of Antonio de Leyva, then Fernando the Avalos arrived with an army of 24300 Spanish, German and Italian soldiers to rescue the city.
At the end of the battle 8000 French soldiers and 5000 German mercenaries were killed, the Spanish-Imperial only suffered 1500 losses.
The king Francis I of France was captured and it was imprisioned in Spain for one year
Carlos, Rey Emperador - Francisco I es apresado en Pavía

More Spanish victories against France in the 16 century are the Battle of St Quintin 1557 and the Battle of Gravelines 1558, when Philip II of Spain ordered to the Spanish army an invasion of France, the French lost and Henry II of France surrendered to Philip II of Spiain

The Battle of Glemboux in 1578
Spain: 17000 men
Dutch rebels: 25000 men
Spanish losses: 20 men dead and wounded
Dutch losses: 10000 men dead, wounded and captured

The English Armada 1589
Ok all people know about the Spanish Armada 1588 however the Counter-Armada is really unknown
In 1589 England wanted to give a final strike to Spain, and to do that prepared a fleet of 24000 English soldiers in more than 150 ships (bigger than the Spanish Armada), the fleet landed in A Coruna and here the English Standard bearer was killed by the heroine Maria Pita and the English ran away from A Coruna. The English also atacked Lisbon to separate Portugal from Spain (United since 1580) but they completely failed too. English looses: 15000 men dead or captured,40 ships sunk or captured

Islands Voyage 1597
Elisabeth I of England wanted to capture the Spanish treasure fleet and atack the Azores Islands, and to do that, she sent an expedition of 20000 Anglo-Dutch men in 120-150 ships, the expedition ended in a completely failure and with huge naval and economic losses for England.

The Naval Battle of Cape Celidonia 1616
Spain: 5 galleons and 1 patache, 1600 men
Othoman Empire: 55 galleys, 12000 soldiers
Spanish losses: 34 killed, 94 wounded, no ship lost
Othoman losses 10 galleys sunk, 23 galleys damaged, 3200 killed

The Naval Battle of Cape Corvo 1619
Spain: 8 galleys
Othoman Empire: 10 galleys
Spanish losses: 6 killed, 30 wounded, no ship lost
Othoman losses: 7 galleys captured, 400 killed, 600 prisioners,1200 slaves freed

The Siege of Breda 1624-1625
In 1590 the Dutch rebels captured Breda one of the oldest cities in the Netherlands, also from Breda it can be controled the land acces to the rebel province Zeeland. For the reconquest of Breda, Ambrosio Spinola sieged Breda in August of 1624 with an army of almost 40000 men, 10 months later Breda surrendered
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Velazquez-The_Surrender_of_Breda.jpg

The Battle of Nordlingen 1634, great victory over Sweden

Battle of La Gudiña 1709, outnumbered victory over an anglo-portuguese arny that neutralized the treat in the portuguese fronter during the War of the Spanish Succesion

Battle of Cartagena de Indias 1741, greatest defeat of the Royal Navy and the British Army
Spain: 3000 men (2400 spaniards, 600 native americans) and 6 ships
Britain: 27000 men, almost 200 ships and 2700 pieces of artillery
Spanish losses: 800 dead and wounded
British losses: 18000 British died more than 50 ships lost and 4000 wonded

Melilla siege 1774
Spaniards Forces: 5.000 Spaniards
British and Morocco forces: 40.000 moors supplied by England and British artillerymen
Result: Spaniards resisted 100 days the attack until Melilla was relieved. After this defeat the Sultain supplicated the Spanish king for peace

Battle of the Cape of Santa Maria 1780 the greatest capture over the British
Spanish and French forces:
27 Spanish ships of the line
4 Spanish frigates
2 Spanish lesser vessels
9 French ships of the line
1 French frigate
British forces:
36 frigates
10 bergantine ships
6 packet-boats
Total: 55 vessels
1350 sailors
1357 infantry officials and soldiers
286 civilians
80.000 muskets
294 cannons
3.000 gunpowder barrels
Equipment, provisions, clothes, uniforms, etc. for many infantry regiments in America.
1.000.000 of pounds in gold.
Spanish loses: none.
British losses: Everybody and everything captured with almost no resistance (the British surrendered soon) except for 3 ships (where the British admiral fled).
The greater logistic disaster for the Royal Navy in their whole history. Also a financial disaster and great economic losses.

Battle of Pensacola 1781, really important victory of the American Revolution, Bernardo de Galvez the Spanish commander of that battle paradated with Washington in the 4 of July, he is an honorary US citizen

British Atack to Tenerife 1797, Nelson worst defeat
4000 British soldiers in 10 ships comanded by Horatio Nelson, attacked Santa Cruz de Tenerife defended by 1700 Spaniards.
The Spaniards defeated the British and Nelson lost an arm (this battle was the worst memory of Nelson)
English losses: 200 dead 300 prisioners, 123 wounded
The English withdrew 3 days after having initiated the attack

Battle of Bailen 1808
First defeat of the French Imperial Army in land, 18000 french soldiers prisioners

Battle of El Caney 1898
Spain: 550 men
United States of America: 6700 men, 4 guns and 4 machine guns
Spanish losses: 470
US losses: 1519
Also the Americans were impresed of the corauge of the Spaniards, The American general Herbert Howland said that:
"The valor of the Spaniards is magnificent, while the pomegranates exploded over the village or exploded against the stone fort, while the hail of lead swept through the trenches seeking every loincloth, every crevice, every corner, the soldiers of that incomparable Vara de Rey, quietly and deliberately, continued for hours in their trenches, unloading after discharge against the American attackers, their numbers decreasing and decreasing, their trenches were full of dead and wounded, but with a determination and a value beyond Of all compliment, resisted the attacks and, for 8 hours, kept at bay more than 10 times their number, of American troops as brave as never toured a battlefield ... "

Battle of Krasny Bor 1943
The Blue Division (Spanish volunteers): 4500 men
URRS: 44000 soldiers, 100 tanks, 800 guns of 187 mm , 2 bateries of mortars, Katyusha battery of 156 mm
Spanish losses: 1127 killed, 1135 wounded, 300 prisioners, 90 men dissapeared
Soviet losses: 11000 killed, 5000 wounded

Well thats it, I hope you enjoyed it
 
Joined May 2011
15,791 Posts | 1,621+
Navan, Ireland
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.................

Battle of the Cape of Santa Maria 1780 the greatest capture over the British
Spanish and French forces:
27 Spanish ships of the line
4 Spanish frigates
2 Spanish lesser vessels
9 French ships of the line
1 French frigate
British forces:
36 frigates
10 bergantine ships
6 packet-boats
Total: 55 vessels
1350 sailors
1357 infantry officials and soldiers
286 civilians
80.000 muskets
294 cannons
3.000 gunpowder barrels
Equipment, provisions, clothes, uniforms, etc. for many infantry regiments in America.
1.000.000 of pounds in gold.
Spanish loses: none.
British losses: Everybody and everything captured with almost no resistance (the British surrendered soon) except for 3 ships (where the British admiral fled).
The greater logistic disaster for the Royal Navy in their whole history. Also a financial disaster and great economic losses.

....................................

Where are you getting your information from?

because if you are talking about the action on the 8th of August in 1780, yes a massive British defeat -- but not of warships but over a convoy -- merchant ships against Ships of the Line the British did not have 36 frigates as you claim.

According to Wiki the British had 1 ship of the line, 3 frigates, 5 'East Indiamen' (big well armed merchantmen) and 55 merchant ships. The Spanish had 31 Ships of the Line and 6 frigates.

It would have been a very foolish Merchant Ship captain who tried to fight a Ship of the Line, the British lost 1 frigate.
 
Joined May 2015
1,440 Posts | 344+
Germany
French ones, yes. Italian ones, yes. But I have never seen a single person that made fun about Spanish armies.
 
Joined Jan 2017
21 Posts | 0+
Spain
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Where are you getting your information from?

because if you are talking about the action on the 8th of August in 1780, yes a massive British defeat -- but not of warships but over a convoy -- merchant ships against Ships of the Line the British did not have 36 frigates as you claim.

According to Wiki the British had 1 ship of the line, 3 frigates, 5 'East Indiamen' (big well armed merchantmen) and 55 merchant ships. The Spanish had 31 Ships of the Line and 6 frigates.

It would have been a very foolish Merchant Ship captain who tried to fight a Ship of the Line, the British lost 1 frigate.
https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captura_del_doble_convoy_ingl%C3%A9s_(1780)
It was a capture of an double British conboy without resistance
 
Joined Jan 2017
21 Posts | 0+
Spain
French ones, yes. Italian ones, yes. But I have never seen a single person that made fun about Spanish armies.
I said people that made fun with the Spanish army, they says that Spain only won against native american tribes and never against an european power and they all allways repeating the same, The Spanish Armada, Trafalgar and the Disaster of 98
 
Joined May 2016
12,115 Posts | 4,890+
Portugal
Spanish losses: 1 spanish soldier kicked by a mule

I recall reading about this somewhere! Wasn’t there a joke about the subject?

The Battle of Pavia
In 1525 France and Spain were again in war and a French army of 39000 men with 53 cannons commanded by Francis I of France invaded the north of Italy and Sieged Pavia defended by 6000 Spaniards under the command of Antonio de Leyva, then Fernando the Avalos arrived with an army of 24300 Spanish, German and Italian soldiers to rescue the city.
At the end of the battle 8000 French soldiers and 5000 German mercenaries were killed, the Spanish-Imperial only suffered 1500 losses.
The king Francis I of France was captured and it was imprisioned in Spain for one year

Capturing an enemy king always gives a different taste to the word victory! To any kingdom. Francis I really had a bad time.
 
Joined Aug 2015
6,089 Posts | 1,585+
Slovenia, EU
I said people that made fun with the Spanish army, they says that Spain only won against native american tribes and never against an european power and they all allways repeating the same, The Spanish Armada, Trafalgar and the Disaster of 98

We all know that Spanish are one of European greats. Nobody has won such an empire with sweet talking.

You also handed Ottoman's ..... to them quite few times. Lepanto as a very famous one.
 
Joined Feb 2009
7,422 Posts | 836+
Eastern PA
I said people that made fun with the Spanish army, they says that Spain only won against native american tribes and never against an european power and they all allways repeating the same, The Spanish Armada, Trafalgar and the Disaster of 98

The time that you have belonged to this forum can be counted in minutes! Your claim is unsubstantiated and untrue.

You have an agenda that has no place at Historum.
 
Joined Jan 2017
21 Posts | 0+
Spain
The time that you have belonged to this forum can be counted in minutes! Your claim is unsubstantiated and untrue.

You have an agenda that has no place at Historum.

I didn't say that people said this in historum, but as historum is a forum about history I published it here
 
Joined May 2011
15,791 Posts | 1,621+
Navan, Ireland
https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captura_del_doble_convoy_ingl%C3%A9s_(1780)
It was a capture of an double British conboy without resistance


The capture of a convoy that consisted not as you claimed 36 frigates ,that is warships, but of merchant ships.

Firstly no merchant ship (with the exception of the 'East Indiaman' that were big and often well armed and could and did occasionally fight off a warship) is going to fight against enemy warships and certainly not a Ship of The Line.

Infact even frigates did not fight against such ships (in general), so with one Ship of the Line, three frigates and 5 Indiamen (whose ability to fight is very mixed they are not warships) the British were massively out numbered with the Spanish and French having over 30 Battleships plus 6 frigates.

While a great strategic victory for the Spanish its not quite the massive victory of the Spanish Navy over the British one as you claimed and the fact that British civilian ships surrendered without a fight is nothing unusual.
 
Joined Dec 2014
8,941 Posts | 991+
Spain
The capture of a convoy that consisted not as you claimed 36 frigates ,that is warships, but of merchant ships.

Firstly no merchant ship (with the exception of the 'East Indiaman' that were big and often well armed and could and did occasionally fight off a warship) is going to fight against enemy warships and certainly not a Ship of The Line.

Infact even frigates did not fight against such ships (in general), so with one Ship of the Line, three frigates and 5 Indiamen (whose ability to fight is very mixed they are not warships) the British were massively out numbered with the Spanish and French having over 30 Battleships plus 6 frigates.

While a great strategic victory for the Spanish its not quite the massive victory of the Spanish Navy over the British one as you claimed and the fact that British civilian ships surrendered without a fight is nothing unusual.

You are right.. In XVIII century, in naval warfare, Britain was mostly superior than Spain... but the 1780 victory over a Convoy was great and Deprived Britain from resources. The Rea Armada took 52 British ships (from 58.. so only 6 ships run away). Spain took POW 1.350 seamen and 1.357 soldiers and Royal Marines and 286 civilians. It was a great victory.
Total: 2.943 POW, 80.000 rifles, 294 cannons, 3.000 barrels of powder, 1.000.000 Pound in Gold and clothes belonged to 12 British Regiments.
The Battle opposite 27 Spanish ships of lines, 4 frigates and 2 ships vs 1 British ship of line, 2 frigates and 55 merchant ships.

Here you can see the British shisp took by Spaniards in the Great Convoy in 1780

3.gif



So, the Great Convoy was a great victory over Britain in American Rebelion war...Also it is interested the battle of Sicie in 1744: 16 French ships of lines and 12 Spanish ships of line defeated 30 British Ships of lines. 1.806 French-Spanish guns vs 2.280 British guns.
The victory is still greater if we study the kind of ships:
12 Spanish ships of lines: 1 ships 110 guns, 1 of 80 guns, 1 of 70 guns and 3 of 64 guns. The other 6 ships were "Marchantes" (ships for the Spanish Treasure Fleet didn´t design for battles.. they were fast but not well-armed: they used 60 guns (18 and 12 pounder)..whilst the ships for battles used 24 and 36 pounder.

So, in the Battle of Sicie, the Royal Navy had more ships of lines, more guns and more powerfull guns.
 
Joined May 2011
15,791 Posts | 1,621+
Navan, Ireland
You are right.. In XVIII century, in naval warfare, Britain was mostly superior than Spain... but the 1780 victory over a Convoy was great and Deprived Britain from resources. The Rea Armada took 52 British ships (from 58.. so only 6 ships run away). Spain took POW 1.350 seamen and 1.357 soldiers and Royal Marines and 286 civilians. It was a great victory.
Total: 2.943 POW, 80.000 rifles, 294 cannons, 3.000 barrels of powder, 1.000.000 Pound in Gold and clothes belonged to 12 British Regiments.
The Battle opposite 27 Spanish ships of lines, 4 frigates and 2 ships vs 1 British ship of line, 2 frigates and 55 merchant ships.

.................................................

I never said it was not a great Spanish victory but the poster claimed that it was a victory over warships which it was not, he also implied that the RN ships gave up without a fight -- when in reality a merchant would surrender to a 'Battleship' as a matter of course.

Even a frigate would not engage a Ship of the Line if they could in any way avoid it.

He also accuses (as you do) of the surviving ships of 'running away' which is rather foolish more like they were trying to escape from a disaster even HMS Ramilies the 'Ship of the Line faced odds of 31 v 1 (I believe there were 4 French 'Battleships' as well) so 'running away' was a wise rather than cowardly course of action.
 
Joined Jan 2017
21 Posts | 0+
Spain
The capture of a convoy that consisted not as you claimed 36 frigates ,that is warships, but of merchant ships.

Firstly no merchant ship (with the exception of the 'East Indiaman' that were big and often well armed and could and did occasionally fight off a warship) is going to fight against enemy warships and certainly not a Ship of The Line.

Infact even frigates did not fight against such ships (in general), so with one Ship of the Line, three frigates and 5 Indiamen (whose ability to fight is very mixed they are not warships) the British were massively out numbered with the Spanish and French having over 30 Battleships plus 6 frigates.

While a great strategic victory for the Spanish its not quite the massive victory of the Spanish Navy over the British one as you claimed and the fact that British civilian ships surrendered without a fight is nothing unusual.

In the link that I sent you can check the British losses, I got the numbers from that page
 
Joined May 2011
15,791 Posts | 1,621+
Navan, Ireland
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In the link that I sent you can check the British losses, I got the numbers from that page


Well its in Spanish but English Wiki says the Ship of the Line, two frigates and three other ships escaped -- 51 merchant (not war) ships were taken plus one of the frigates.

That was indeed a great strategic victory for the Spanish Navy.

However that is very different from taking 52 Royal Navy warships to say the least.

However a convey gets intercepted, it escort is 1 ship of the line and 3 frigates, by 31 ships of the Line plus 6 frigates there's only ever going to be one outcome.
 
Joined Dec 2016
202 Posts | 20+
Spain
I write here because I don't want to start a new topic.

Why spanish were almost always defeated by Great Britain by 18th century in terms of naval battles? I take Battle of Cape St Vincent (1797) as an example: we had 24 ships of the line against 15 british ships of the line. The british were outgunned by our ships of the line, involving the most powerful and biggest 1st rates ever built by this year: Santísima Trinidad (130), Mejicano (112), Purísima Concepción (112), Conde de Regla (112), Príncipe de Asturias (112), San José (112). The british only had two first rates: HMS Victory (100), HMS Britannia (100). With that superiority it was likely that we, Spain, would have defeated british.
 
Joined Mar 2012
18,030 Posts | 10+
In the bag of ecstatic squirt
The Battle of Pavia
In 1525 France and Spain were again in war and a French army of 39000 men with 53 cannons commanded by Francis I of France invaded the north of Italy and Sieged Pavia defended by 6000 Spaniards under the command of Antonio de Leyva, then Fernando the Avalos arrived with an army of 24300 Spanish, German and Italian soldiers to rescue the city.
At the end of the battle 8000 French soldiers and 5000 German mercenaries were killed, the Spanish-Imperial only suffered 1500 losses.
The king Francis I of France was captured and it was imprisioned in Spain for one year
This is among the most fascinating victory of Spain in European theater. They were attacking a larger army and won it.
 
Joined Dec 2014
8,941 Posts | 991+
Spain
I never said it was not a great Spanish victory but the poster claimed that it was a victory over warships which it was not, he also implied that the RN ships gave up without a fight -- when in reality a merchant would surrender to a 'Battleship' as a matter of course.

Even a frigate would not engage a Ship of the Line if they could in any way avoid it.

He also accuses (as you do) of the surviving ships of 'running away' which is rather foolish more like they were trying to escape from a disaster even HMS Ramilies the 'Ship of the Line faced odds of 31 v 1 (I believe there were 4 French 'Battleships' as well) so 'running away' was a wise rather than cowardly course of action.


You are right Kevin, "run away" is because I wrote as I think, and in Spanish language it is the same meaning "run away" (Escapar, huir) and "escape" (escapar, huir). I wrote "run away" because it is faster than "escape"...of course, the ships escaped they use the brain.. Everybody would have done the same... 31 vs 1!!!!
And in my case, I never would say anything about cowardice... of course not.

Regards.

The battle of Sicie is interesting because of the British superiority. Royal Navy was the best navy in the world in XVIII century.. so, that defeat it is still greater when the Real Armada and the French Navy fought in numerical inferiority: ships of lines and guns.
 
Joined Dec 2014
8,941 Posts | 991+
Spain
Never heard or seen anyone making light of Spanish military.

Edric,

I remember somebody wrote Brunei annihilated the Spanish Infantry and that was not truth.. the only two battles in Brunei campaign were Spanish victories. They took Brunei and they didn´t lost Brunei in any battle..the Brunei Army never took Madrid-Manila-Naples or any Spanish Dominion. (not even Utrecht or Breda or Jullich).

So, yes, some people like to do light of the Spanish Military hegemony..but I think it is not with "bad intention". I think it is only because they have others point of views, nothing more, maybe because of a protestant education or maybe because they have read books from one point of view. It is very interesting to read about different point of view and different sources.
Really, So ridiculous is to deny Spanish military hegemony as to deny the British Sea Hegemony.

Dear Dagul,

Pavia was great.. but what about the Gran Captain´s campaigns in Sicily and Naples? And what Bicocca' Oh, My God, Bicocca...as wrote the viscount of El-Alamein.. if Cerignola put end to the French Heavy Cavalry myth (la Gendarmerie).. Bicocca put end to the "Swiss invincibility myth" and begun a new myth: The Spanish Infantry invincibility myth. 30.000 Swiss-French-German vs 18.000 Spanish-Italian-German.

Swiss casualties: 3.000 KIA
Spanish casualties: 1 WIA.

Really... an unbelievable victory.. the end of the Swiss myth: as it was written by Guicciardini:

They went back to their mountains diminished in numbers, but much more diminished in audacity;
 
Joined Nov 2010
14,406 Posts | 4,143+
Cornwall
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I write here because I don't want to start a new topic.

Why spanish were almost always defeated by Great Britain by 18th century in terms of naval battles? I take Battle of Cape St Vincent (1797) as an example: we had 24 ships of the line against 15 british ships of the line. The british were outgunned by our ships of the line, involving the most powerful and biggest 1st rates ever built by this year: Santísima Trinidad (130), Mejicano (112), Purísima Concepción (112), Conde de Regla (112), Príncipe de Asturias (112), San José (112). The british only had two first rates: HMS Victory (100), HMS Britannia (100). With that superiority it was likely that we, Spain, would have defeated british.

Everyone knows I'm a big fan of Spanish history, but:

Have you heard of HMS Ville de Paris? 110 guns
Are you Spanish, or Mexican?

It was to do with seamanship and command. The whole Spanish military was under-funded and under-manned, sending soldiers to sea as sailors in poorly maintained ships. Also they got little practice as the British Navy ruled the waves and kept the French and Spanish in port much of the time. The British Navy was the principal expense of the British government in time of war.

One thing about this period - the duty of a British captain was to put his ship alongside that of an enemy. If he didn't he could be court-martialed unless he had a very good reason (frigate v ship of the line etc). British used heavy shot or grape shot to fire into the ship. The duty of a French captain (not sure about Spanish but they were under-equipped) was to get away to port and preserve his ship, to which end they used bar shot to try and disable the British rigging and stop the ability of the British ship to pursue or come alongside.
 

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