The Holocaust and its parallels to modern treatment of palestinians

gulex · Nov 19, 2010

Linschoten: I sense you're a waste of time. Regardless i'll try.
No i never suggested Israel would eventually mass-exterminate palestinians. I made an unclear first post, in which i meant - and later clarified - that it it was comparable to pre-war nazi germany and you have done nothing to disprove this. In other words, you've spent the 'debate' telling me im wrong, yet not once have you come up with a single argument as to WHY i am wrong. So unless you will do that, i must ask you to ignore the rest of this thread, as you provide no input to the debate.

Belisarius · Nov 19, 2010

It seems I need to make a response to my last post.

Linschoten, I fully appreciate the emotion this subject arouses and would respectfully suggest you read my first paragraph carefully before making any accusations.

I’ve made no assumptions, but merely given examples where parallels could be drawn. The question posed is a valid one for any number of reasons, not least of which being that a rational discussion may well settle the matter once and for all, at least on this forum.

linschoten said:
There is absolutely no possibility of them ever carrying out the sort of massacres that occurred in the former Jugoslavia, i.e. any form of genocide. The fact is that all the dubious practices associated with the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians can be paralleled in any number of places, now and in the recent past, but does anyone ever say of these that it is the slippery slope to a Holocaust?

linschoten said:
No, you are; if there is absolutely no possibility (and there is none) of the current activities of the Israelis being a slippery slope that will lead towards mass extermination, then the comparison with the Holocaust is meaningless as well as being thoroughly offensive. If you want to criticize the Israelis for specific activities, do so in accordance with their specific nature, and do not resort to absurd analogies which merely cut off any meaningful debate.

You speak passionately about ‘facts’ and ‘impossibilities’, without providing examples or evidence to support your assertions. This is not rational discussion; you yourself appear to be falling prey to the sort of ...-for tat emotive discourse that arises on this forum far too often.

Closing down this thread might stop discussion on this topic for a week, or a month, or longer, but I guarantee, sooner or later, another one will be posted and the cycle will begin again.

Perhaps it’s better to bottom this debate once and for all, in a rational manner. That way all future questions of this type can be referred here.

Just a thought.

Linschoten · Nov 19, 2010

Linschoten: I sense you're a waste of time. Regardless i'll try.
No i never suggested Israel would eventually mass-exterminate palestinians. I made an unclear first post, in which i meant - and later clarified - that it it was comparable to pre-war nazi germany and you have done nothing to disprove this. In other words, you've spent the 'debate' telling me im wrong, yet not once have you come up with a single argument as to WHY i am wrong. So unless you will do that, i must ask you to ignore the rest of this thread, as you provide no input to the debate.

If there's no analogy with the Holocaust, as you admit, why suggest the idea in the first place? And why do we still have a thread here entitled 'the Holocaust and its parallels to modern treatment of the Palestinians' if there is no analogy? Nor are the Israelis Nazis, whatever else they may be, so it is simply pointless to engage in a discussion which is based on false analogies.

You speak passionately about ‘facts’ and ‘impossibilities’, without providing examples or evidence to support your assertions. This is not rational discussion; you yourself appear to be falling prey to the sort of ...-for tat emotive discourse that arises on this forum far too often.

Not emotive discourse, but a calm statement of plain common sense. Goodness me, does one really have to provide elaborate arguments to show that the Israelis will never carry our massacres like that at Srebrenica, will never set out to exterminate the entire Palestinian people and burn them in ovens, which is what a Holocaust means? It simply impossible to draw a sane comparison between any Israeli actions and the Holocaust, the comparison is plainly defamatory, one that would not be tolerated in any other connection, and I will not have any further association with this forum while it is allowed to stand. (Incidentally, I am no supporter of Israeli goverment policy.)

I do appreciate that you were talking hypothetically, about a possible basis for reasonable discussion, but a false and offensive analogy can provide no basis for reasonable discussion.

Comet · Nov 19, 2010

Linschoten said:
I do appreciate that you were talking hypothetically, about a possible basis for reasonable discussion, but a false and offensive analogy can provide no basis for reasonable discussion.

If you view this offensive, you don't have to read/engage in any discussions within the thread. Hypothetical situations are essential to our understanding of history. It can provide us with a better picture of events...even if it does conflict with good ole common sense. The best thing to do is keep an open mind and keep your emotions (and yes, sometimes common sense) in check. Simply provide the evidence to refute the claim.

HadleyH · Nov 19, 2010

Linschoten said:
No, you are; if there is absolutely no possibility (and there is none) of the current activities of the Israelis being a slippery slope that will lead towards mass extermination, then the comparison with the Holocaust is meaningless as well as being thoroughly offensive. If you want to criticize the Israelis for specific activities, do so in accordance with their specific nature, and do not resort to absurd analogies which merely cut off any meaningful debate.

In my opinion that is the best answer so far. No passion, no emotion, just a good sense , rational judgement.

Thank you Linschoten.

Carlisle Blues · Nov 19, 2010

gulex said:
Hello everyone

Haven't been on for quite some time, but just thought of this forum today.
The reason is, a israeli historian, Gideon Greif came to my gymnasium to give a lecture on the holocaust, specifically the Auschwitz KZ-camp. Through the whole lecture he gave a very informative - and might i say nightmarish - presentation of the subject, the technicalities, the logistics and the way in which Nazi-Germany almost industrialized their mass extermination of jews.
Now, at the end of his lecture he opened for questions. Damnit, i knew my question would piss him off, but i felt it was relevant.
So i asked him if the way Nazi-germany dehumanized jews to legitimize the mass-killings of said people could be - although seriously exeragated -paralleled to Israels treatment of palestinians. Needless to say he got pissed.
Mr. Greif argued, that such parallels could be drawn between anything. For example, i may as well had paralleled it to the gulags, or the prisoner camps of the american civil war. Personally - and i didnt get to say this - his points are invalid, because the jews specifically felt the brutality and inhuman behaviour in the KZ-camps. They (i know, its a huge generalisation) if anyone should know, that such behaviour must never happen. Anyway.
Afterwards the general opinion seemed to be, that my question had been heartless and out-of-line.
What do you guys think on the subject? I didn't want to piss him off. I just think this whole holocaust focus we have in he west is making people blind to actual human rights violations occuring right now.

I apologize for a grammatical and structurally inferior post. At the moment i seem to lack a way of formalizing my thoughts into words

Thanks for reading.

To speculate on this creates a historical fiction as the facts in each matter are by there very nature incomparable. Therefore the answer is simply no.

My understanding is the following situation actually did occur and is as follows:

“The highly conflictual and equivocal role of Holocaust memory in Israel is exemplified in a series of events with Israeli settlers in Gaza between December 2004 and August 2005. In response to the Sharon government’s plan to evacuate certain settlements in Gaza, Jewish settlers created a media scandal by claiming that they would start wearing armbands with orange stars of David. By wearing these stars—recalling the yellow stars forcibly worn by Jews in the Nazi Holocaust—the settlers ventured to Joseph Rosen compare the Sharon government’s withdrawal plan to the Nazi Holocaust. Israel’s Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial Centre and the Simon Wiesenthal Centre both condemned this invocation of Holocaust memory, as did Holocaust survivors such as Shevah Weiss. As Yad Vashem’s director Avner Shalev said, “the plan to wear orange stars perverts the historical facts and damages the memory of the Shoah.”

And while this ‘comparison’ is clearly inaccurate and politically motivated, it highlights the deeply equivocal role and affective power of Holocaust memory in Israel. The settlers’ proposal ignited a series of inflammatory references and accusations. Iraqi-born (and Jewish) Cabinet Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer received a letter calling him “the epitome of evil, a miserable Iraqi, a Nazi with Arab blood. You love Arabs more than Jews.”Graffiti attacks on then Prime Minister Ariel Sharon stated that “Hitler would be proud of you.”Perhaps the most extreme comparisons were made by “Nativ,” a policy review published in the West Bank settlement of Ariel. Nativ described the withdrawal plan as “ethnic cleansing,”
called Sharon a “Judenrat,” (invoking the word for Jewish ‘collaborators’ in the Warsaw Ghetto), and accused Israel’s defence minister as collaborating in “the final solution.”

http://www.irmgard-coninx-stiftung.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/Memory_Politics/Workshop_3/Rosen_Essay.pdf

There is no merit in this comparison or the argument whatsoever; depending on your stance regarding this situation the effects of the title of this thread and the OP can range from being incendiary to absurd, at best.

Yorgos · Nov 20, 2010

Carlisle Blues said:
There is no merit in this comparison or the argument whatsoever; depending on your stance regarding this situation the effects of the title of this thread and the OP can range from being incendiary to absurd, at best.

Not only the OP, but a moderator too who seconded this arbitrary comparison based on hate and disrespect of history.

Pericles · Nov 20, 2010

Yorgos said:
Not only the OP, but a moderator too who seconded this arbitrary comparison based on hate and disrespect of history.

If you were trying to imply that one of our moderators is either anti-Semitic or a Holocaust denier, nothing could be further from the truth. We have had real Holocaust deniers attempt to join Historum a number of times in the past, and we have always dealt with them very harshly, usually banning them permanently as soon as their agenda becomes clear. The entire moderating team is united in a firm stance against anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial.

In the case of this thread, the moderators believed there may have been some merit in allowing an intellectual, hypothetical discussion of the questions raised by the OP. But it has become clear that no one is willing or prepared to have that discussion. Since nothing positive is going to come out of this thread, I am closing it now.

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The Holocaust and its parallels to modern treatment of palestinians

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