Joined Oct 2011
40,550 Posts | 7,631+
Italy, Lago Maggiore
A part of the people in Quebec would like also to join France, but this would be quite odd: a new French American province ...
There is already a European country with a territory in Northern America, it's Denmark with Greenland [I have always wondered about this and the US "doctrine" about European presence on American continent, anyway ...], but Quebec would be a well different matter.
In any case, my general opinion is that local languages have to be maintained [in Italy there are regions where French and German are first language and this is not a trouble].
There is already a European country with a territory in Northern America, it's Denmark with Greenland [I have always wondered about this and the US "doctrine" about European presence on American continent, anyway ...], but Quebec would be a well different matter.
In any case, my general opinion is that local languages have to be maintained [in Italy there are regions where French and German are first language and this is not a trouble].
Interesting. I expect equality for Welsh in Wales but I wouldn't expect it throughout the UK.
Joined Aug 2013
623 Posts | 0+
Québec city
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No, no they do not.
Québec's sovereignty movements advocate for Québec to become independent. Nobody here who's right in the head wants to rejoin France, and I have no clue why this is such a common misconception.
French Canadians will not allow themselves to be extinguished from Canada without a tremendous fight. In any case if Canada were to lose its francophones, it would be as much a blow to them as to us. We are half of Canada's history and half of the Canadian identity. It would be like Britain losing the scots and welsh.
There is a common saying here that exhibits the kind of spirit we hold our language and culture in:
"If a nuclear holocaust occured, which two countries would survive? It would beChina and Québec. China because they have so many people one of them surely must survive, and Québec because if they have lived on for the past 300 years and are still around, something as minor as the end of the world isn't going to do them in."
In other words: we are not going anywhere.
...sorry for that rant, but I am a French Canadian after all, and I thought I simply must say something in this thread.
I live in Florida and every year over 3 million Canadians come down here to enjoy the warm weather. Many of them are from Quebec and I can see they are not suffering since they have condos and homes and second cars which they keep here. And when they come down here they speak perfect English. Yet when I go to Quebec I find it difficult to find anybody who speaks good English.
Joined Aug 2013
623 Posts | 0+
Québec city
The population of Québec as a whole is 7-8 million, and I know for a fact that half of the population doesn't pack bags and go to Florida every winter, so they can't all be québécois
As for their affluence, which you bring up, Québec used to be a very poor and conservative society, like the gilded age but without the following progressive era. It remained like this for a long time, until the so called "quiet revolution" of the mid 29th century that modernized the province's economy and government, and gave birth to modern French Canadian nationalism. This was as recent as the 1950s, so Québec still struggles a little with urban poverty. You can see this in Laval and the outskirts of Québec city.
That's... unusual. Where in the province did you go? 47% of all French Canadians can speak English, and in Montréal nearly everyone can speak English as well as French.
Joined Dec 2010
5,581 Posts | 721+
Pillium
It's not that unusual. The Welsh like to amuse themselves by pretending that they cannot speak or understand English to English tourists, this is more common in north Wales.
Considering that 73% of the population of Wales claim to have no knowledge of the language and only 15% are fluent in it I think they are having a bit of a laugh with the thicko tourists! The French Canadians probably share the same sense of humour.
Joined Oct 2011
40,550 Posts | 7,631+
Italy, Lago Maggiore
I noted something similar in Scotland. While I was traveling on a Scottish train a guy of the company [an English young guy] asked questions to the travelers [for statistical purposes] ... the "highlanders" answered in Scottish and the English young guy understood substantially an accurate nut
.Sorry but that's nonsense. I'm a native Welsh speaker but after forty years in England I have no Welsh accent. More scouse if anything.
I regularly visit North Wales and that has never ever happened to me. Neither have the locals swapped back into Welsh as we've entered a pub.
Joined Oct 2011
40,550 Posts | 7,631+
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Glad to hear that ... actually it's a urban legend which is quite present here around in Europe.
Joined Dec 2010
5,581 Posts | 721+
Pillium
Sorry but that's nonsense. I'm a native Welsh speaker but after forty years in England I have no Welsh accent. More scouse if anything.
Which part is nonsense? I got the stats from Wiki and have encountered the 'No speakee English' scenario at least twice, so have several acquaintances and colleagues of mine.
Joined Aug 2013
623 Posts | 0+
Québec city
That is a lot easier said than done. Both sides, anglophone and francophone, have made barriers to a real singular Canadian identity.
It has in the past reached the point of Québec nearly separating entirely, in 1995. The referendum failed by a margin of less than 1% and had the largest voter turnout in the history of the province.
Because it consists of current political issues, what with the PQ in power right now, and because it is such a hot-button issue, I'm not going to share my personal views on Québec seperatism. Just keep in mind that it is a constant presence on the provincial political field.
If it's happened to you then I take it all back. Every other time I've heard the story it's happened to "a mate of mine" or it's "they always do it" without anything specific in terms of place or time.
There are Welsh speakers that will always start a conversation in Welsh (which I think they're perfectly entitled to do on their home ground). There's a potentially awkward transition into English to be managed then if the other person only speaks English.
Now this really happened to me - a cafe by the bridge in Llanrwst - a friend spoke to the owner in Welsh. She could have said "Sorry, I don't speak Welsh" but instead she said "You'll have to speak English". Hackles raised all round.
Joined Aug 2012
1,733 Posts | 3+
Colorado
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French is in Quebec to stay. Statistically, French ceased to shrink in Quebec after the 1970's or so, and was on the rise until two years (or so) ago. However, in my opinion, Quebec will inevitably separate in the future. I say this because now Quebec has it's own 'national' government and manages much of it's own affairs. When a truly controversial topic arises again (like the 1917 conscription crisis), it will be all too easy for Quebec to secede.
When I moved to Canada, I was amazed at the power of the Quebecois government. For example, I had to apply for residency and manage my legal requirements with the Quebecois 'national' government. The Quebec government managed everything on it's own, from laws concerning language to alcohol. As a resident of Quebec, you easily forget that Quebec is not a fully fledged independent nation. A large proportion of Quebecois even refer to English Canada simply as "Canada" - that tells you something.
All they need is for people to be dissatisfied with the Canadian government. Quebec has everything a potential country could need: two major cities, a plethora of natural resources, a unique and vibrant culture, etc. It is in every way it's own country that is tied to English Canada. The way I see it is this: Quebec and English Canada are only together under one government because of the British Empire. The British Empire is now defunct, so what's really holding the two together now? If Quebec wanted to be part of a larger English speaking nation, wouldn't it make more sense to be part of the wealthier United States rather than English Canada? So without the British Empire still around, Canada needs something new to hold together Quebec and English Canada, or else it won't work anymore.
That is an amazing urban legend! I have never heard of it either. In my experience, many Quebecois have some disdain (this might be too strong a word) for France. After all, the French abandoned Canada for an island in the Caribbean, and they always laugh at the Quebecois accent.
When I moved to Canada, I was amazed at the power of the Quebecois government. For example, I had to apply for residency and manage my legal requirements with the Quebecois 'national' government. The Quebec government managed everything on it's own, from laws concerning language to alcohol. As a resident of Quebec, you easily forget that Quebec is not a fully fledged independent nation. A large proportion of Quebecois even refer to English Canada simply as "Canada" - that tells you something.
All they need is for people to be dissatisfied with the Canadian government. Quebec has everything a potential country could need: two major cities, a plethora of natural resources, a unique and vibrant culture, etc. It is in every way it's own country that is tied to English Canada. The way I see it is this: Quebec and English Canada are only together under one government because of the British Empire. The British Empire is now defunct, so what's really holding the two together now? If Quebec wanted to be part of a larger English speaking nation, wouldn't it make more sense to be part of the wealthier United States rather than English Canada? So without the British Empire still around, Canada needs something new to hold together Quebec and English Canada, or else it won't work anymore.
That is an amazing urban legend! I have never heard of it either. In my experience, many Quebecois have some disdain (this might be too strong a word) for France. After all, the French abandoned Canada for an island in the Caribbean, and they always laugh at the Quebecois accent.
Joined Jul 2007
9,098 Posts | 19+
Canada
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It's easy to forget the history here too. The only reason that Quebec hasn't separated is because they were given a degree of autonomy and their language and religious rights, and even their own legal system (the Civil Code) right from the start, in the 1700s.
As far as provincial powers over things like alcohol, this is a normal distribution of powers in Canada. Ontario has its own alcohol laws and operates most alcohol distribution through the provincial government's Liquor Control Board of Ontario outlets (and the Beer Store, which is an arm of the LCBO). Other provinces have their own arrangements.
All provinces have much greater latitude in running their affairs than the states, the federalism here is not as centralized or as strong as in the US. They are responsible for everything from education to corporate charters.
Absolutely not. Americans often seem to make this mistake ... Quebec wants to be under a French, or at least bilingual, federal government. Where French is the language or a language of the federal courts, the laws, the legislature, etc. The US has no official language and operates mostly in English and would never consider laws such as requiring bilingual packaging for all products, as Canada does, let alone mandate bilingualism for most federal employees, the courts, etc. Measures in the US to accomodate Spanish are paltry by comparison and Quebec would probably have another FLQ crisis if they were reduced to that level of accomodation.
Moreover it's not really possible to make the claim that the US is wealthier anymore, except in a gross sense on account of its larger population. Per-capita GDP in the US is several thousands less.
If they do separate, they will be going their own way. A more likely scenario is that the English Canadian provinces join the US after Quebec separates! Because they are very much a part of our national fabric, intrinsic to the idea of Canada. It would be like the US if the 13 states that were the 13 colonies left, the concept of America would be shattered. That would be even more true here, with our weak federalism and the strong regionalism evident in the West, Quebec, and the Maritimes. It would be a crushing blow to federalism in this country and Ontario alone could not hold the country together afterwards.
France also has a colonial presence off North America:
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Pierre_and_Miquelon]Saint Pierre and Miquelon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
It's not a problem for US policy, even in light of the Monroe Doctrine, which simply says that the US will oppose European nations expanding their Empires on the American continent. It was never established US policy to remove the colonies already present prior to the Monroe Doctrine. Even the Spanish-American war had the cover of the Maine incident to justify it; we didn't necessarily object to the Spanish having colonies in principal, we really just wanted those particular colonies for ourselves.
I do recall that the US wanted to buy Greenland from Denmark after WWII, but when the Danish government said no, we didn't push the issue, even though we were in a strong position to do so.
Joined Aug 2012
1,733 Posts | 3+
Colorado
True, there is a lot of decentralization in Canada. But Quebec is given more than the standard privilege of a Canadian province, right? IIRC Quebec has been given more power since the 1960's in order to prevent their separation. I think they also receive disproportionate money from the federal government as well.
This is actually an argument I saw put forth by separatists. Of course we don't want Quebec (they want autonomy like in Canada) and Quebec wouldn't voluntarily join the US, but this is the purpose of the question. It is to get one (the Quebecois) thinking: "would we (Quebec) join English Canada if we had to do it all over again"? "If the borders of the world fell today and we had to reassemble them, would we (Quebec) opt to be part of a country with Ontario and BC, or would we be our own country"?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you provide some evidence to this (The per capita GDP in Canada being higher than the US) and do you mean including the cost of living?
It has been 3 years since I lived there, but when I did, the average person in Canada was noticeably poorer. For example, wages were high, and often higher than where I am, but the cost of living and price of goods and services were much, much higher. For example with housing: A middle class $500,000 home where I am now would easily run a million in Montreal to Ottawa area in a similar neighborhood etc. With things like food, gas, etc, I would've needed to have tens of thousands of dollars more a year just to live the exact same lifestyle as I can live here.
Again, not saying your wrong, but from what I experienced living in Canada, the wealth was definitely less. I also don't mean to imply Canadians are paupers or incapable of running an economy; so I hope I'm not offending you.
Joined Jul 2007
9,098 Posts | 19+
Canada
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Much longer. Quebec has had special considerations (such as their own Civil Code) from the very beginning of Canadian Confederation.
Transfer payments are calculated according to a formula. Richer provinces get less, but the amount varies. Alberta, for instance, is now a net contributor (and unhappy about it) but for a long time received a large amount because their economy was poor before oil.
Ontario had never been a beneficiary until just a few years ago, but since the collapse of manufacturing (especially the auto sector) it has been a net beneficiary. It receives slightly more than Quebec at the moment.
Quebec gets whatever the formula indicates, same as any other province. Neither per capita nor in total sum is it the largest beneficiary.
World Bank puts the US GDP at 49,965.27 USD per capita for 2012, Canada at 52,218.99 USD per capita. Living costs are less in the US but you could say the same about Mexico too. Quality of life index is lower in the US, as is education and life expectancy. There may be a lower ratio of toasters or televisions to household in Canada, but that's just a question of different priorities in terms of what the money is spent on. Canadians spend a bit less on consumer goods and more on public goods like roads, hospitals, and schools in order to achieve better health and higher quality of life. Of all the provinces, Quebec is probably the most keen on this sort of thinking.
Joined Aug 2012
1,733 Posts | 3+
Colorado
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I see the World Bank per capita does not take into account PPP (purchasing power parity) and only wages. The IMF cites the US per capita GDP (PPP) as nearly 10,000 dollars higher than Canada. I didn't see much of the 'higher quality of living' in Quebec to be honest, the roads in Quebec were full of potholes, and the schools had fewer and older computers. On the other hand, I did see that in Montreal the government funded streetsweepers so the streets were quite clean (really nice), and the government snow removal was absolutely incredible. I also find Quebec to be more peaceful than much of the US, I believe that is also statistically proven.
I think "Quality of Living" is subjective for anyone: for example, many people would consider living near a beach or in a warm or temperate climate to improve their quality of life, but this kind of thing isn't taken into account when sociologists calculate it. I also saw a quality of life study when I was in Quebec that cited Quebec had the best quality of life in Canada; yet I failed to see that Quebecois were better off than Ontarians. Not to say that Quebecois are living poorly, but I don't understand how one can claim to calculate such a thing. I imagine that in order to understand what brings quality of life one would have to be a spiritual guru or something like that!
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