Thesis: There was no Temple to Yahweh, it was a Temple of Amun-Ra

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The new rulers took the Battle of Kadesh inscriptions and papyrus and rewrote it as if it was the Pharaoh who was destroyed in the water, not his enemies.
If the Torah was actually compiled to its final form during the Babylonian captivity, perhaps reaching full final completion not long after the liberation from Babylon, like some writers have speculated, then the Torah compilers maybe had studied the conquest of Egypt by Kambujiya (Cambyses II), son of Khurush (Cyrus the Great),l. He took Egypt by defeating Pharaoh Psamtik III at the Battle of Pelusium in the much much later time of 525 BC. Which would have been a comparatively fresh story in roughly their own time post-Babylonian liberation.

Then they maybe made a new story using that Kambujiya conquest as a model of sorts. Then added in elements like the Pharaoh (Psamtik III) destroyed by the suddenly surging waters of the Red Sea. Changed the agent of destruction from Kambujiya to "Moses". Then back projected that far back to a much more distant time in the past, changing Psamtik III to Rameses II.

Just laying out the possibilities. Just making some layman very layman conjecture.
 
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Again, when Moses receives the tablets the commandments are not listed.
This element of the story strikes me as very similar to the other PIE myths.

He was warned of the flood by the Matsya (fish) avatar of Vishnu, and built a boat that carried the Vedas, Manu's family and the seven sages to safety, helped by Matsya.

The Manusmṛti (Sanskrit: मनुस्मृति), also known as the Mānava-Dharmaśāstra or the Laws of Manu.
He lived at Knossos for nine years, where he received instruction from Zeus in the legislation he gave to the island.
He was the author of the Cretan constitution
and the founder of its naval supremacy.
Who of course, cut and parted the sea with his naval vessels to kill his Theban enemies. Story includes the Minotaur bull too.

Moses slaughtered the bull and took some of the blood, and with his finger he put it on all the horns of the altar to purify the altar.
Leviticus 8:15


Edit- I don't recall Utnapishtim creating or handing down laws in the Akkadian recorded myth of Gilgamesh. Unless I missed it. Yet this element is present in PIE and Semitic myths.
 
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The weird thing about Moses vs Iranian Yima/Jamshid who survived a flood is that Yima messed up his hand sticking it up Ahrimans bowels. Manu in Hindu has no such messed up hand, like moses. Manu and Yima both being flood heroes who survive aboard a boat like structure.

In Norse and Celtic we get a similar figure to Iranian Yima (Rather than Moses or Manu). Tyr who loses a hand sticking it down Fenrir's mouth in Norse. LLudd Llaw Eraint in Welsh. And Nuada Airgetlem in Irish. Both Lludd and Nuada have silver arms.

Nuada, like Yima, are First Kings (Later Jamshid from Avestan Yima, becomes 4th shaw in Persian Myth).

Jamshid has a 7 ringed cup that brings wealth. While Tyr fetches his father Hymir's cauldron (Possibly for a wedding feast?), as we see a cognate tale in the Nibelungenlied and Branwen Fyrch Llyr. In which a magic cauldron in Branwens tale appears, and a magic Ring in Hagens tale. With Hagen being a cognate figure to Efnisien in Welsh.

Yima was tasked with giving out laws by Ahura Mazda, but refused, so was given another task. Something different to Hindu Manu and the Laws of Manu, or Noah and his 10 Commandments.

Possibly due to Mitanni being closer to Vedic culture than Avestan one? Since its believed the Hurrians acted as a middle ground on spreading Gilgamesh epic into Hebrew where it became Noahs tale.

Perhaps they took some of Noah's tale and gave it to Moses? Noah and his 3 sons better matches Germanic Mannus and his 3 sons. Perhaps he was the original law giver, not Moses?
 
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The weird thing about Moses vs Iranian Yima/Jamshid who survived a flood is that Yima messed up his hand sticking it up Ahrimans bowels. Manu in Hindu has no such messed up hand, like moses. Manu and Yima both being flood heroes who survive aboard a boat like structure.

In Norse and Celtic we get a similar figure to Iranian Yima (Rather than Moses or Manu). Tyr who loses a hand sticking it down Fenrir's mouth in Norse. LLudd Llaw Eraint in Welsh. And Nuada Airgetlem in Irish. Both Lludd and Nuada have silver arms.

Nuada, like Yima, are First Kings (Later Jamshid from Avestan Yima, becomes 4th shaw in Persian Myth).

Jamshid has a 7 ringed cup that brings wealth. While Tyr fetches his father Hymir's cauldron (Possibly for a wedding feast?), as we see a cognate tale in the Nibelungenlied and Branwen Fyrch Llyr. In which a magic cauldron in Branwens tale appears, and a magic Ring in Hagens tale. With Hagen being a cognate figure to Efnisien in Welsh.

Yima was tasked with giving out laws by Ahura Mazda, but refused, so was given another task. Something different to Hindu Manu and the Laws of Manu, or Noah and his 10 Commandments.

Possibly due to Mitanni being closer to Vedic culture than Avestan one? Since its believed the Hurrians acted as a middle ground on spreading Gilgamesh epic into Hebrew where it became Noahs tale.

Perhaps they took some of Noah's tale and gave it to Moses? Noah and his 3 sons better matches Germanic Mannus and his 3 sons. Perhaps he was the original law giver, not Moses?
It was probably from the fact of Moses exhibiting a leprous hand that the Egyptians called the Israelites "the lepers," as related by Manetho

Hmmm, maybe not. That would match Iranian Jamshid

Edit-

That would explain the Hand bit seen in Latin Manus (Also connected to Law). Manu being the flood hero in most PIE myths.
 
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@AlpinLuke
The more I look into this, the more stuff stands out at me, but the more stuff I need to carefully go over.

In the story of Yima, who gets a leper hand (Appearing in literature after the Avesta) and is part of a flood myth like Moses, and has a magic sword. He is tasked with giving out laws but passes on it, but then is made first King to rule over the world instead (Later is given as 4th shaw), which means he also had laws.
In his story, the earth is over populated and Yima makes the Earth swell numerous times to combat the overpopulation till Ahura Mazda warns him of a catastrophe. A horrid winter followed by snow melt (Presumably altered flood myth). He also had a magic 7 ringed cup that had elixir of immortality in it and ability to give visions. Yima may have adopted some of Manu's myth, like the flood. Or both figures are tied to the flood and why the mix up in stories.

In Hindu Vedic texts, Its Vaivasvata Manu (7th Manu). Who is visited by a fish who seeks his aid. So Manu puts it in a jar but the fish keeps growing too big. Manu swaps it into bigger and bigger containers till putting it in the ocean where it reveals its self to be Vishnu and warns of a coming flood. Manu is given Soma (Elixir of immortality by a Falcon). Yet I know of no story yet of Manu having a messed up hand, even in later literature. yet. Manu creates a series of laws though called the Laws of Manu.

Moses, like Yima, has a magic weapon of sorts, his staff. Like Yima, he has a leper hand. Unlike Yima being torn to pieces by Spitiyura, Moses parts Yam Suph. Which is closer to the Manu/Yemo myth in which its Manu who cuts Yemo. Moses also has the 10 commandments.

As per the Norse and Celtic versions. All 3 are compared to Mars via interpretatio Graeca, Nuada Airgetlam of Irish, and Lludd Llaw Eraint in Welsh from earlier Noden. Then Tyr. All 3 missing a hand, with one, Tyr, sticking it in the orifice of another being like Yima did.
Nuada is First King of the Tuatha De Danann, like Yima is first king in Avesta. Nuada also has a magic sword like Yima does.

Yima/Jamshid is followed by Zahhak, who is overthrown by Thraetona/Fereydun. Like Nuada being followed by Lugh Lamfada, who defeats Balor of the Evil Eye. (Which would suggest in Norse, that Tyr ruled before Fenrir bit his hand off, then rule passed to Loki when he killed Baldur).

Tyr is portrayed with a spear, like Greek Ares, while Mars is portrayed with a sword, like Nuada, and Yima. Moses and his staff seem rather more Greek and Norse like. Though I know of no story about Mars or Ares involving their hand being messed up. It does seem to suggest some God of War influence on the Moses story though. If some these other one handed figures are rightfully associated to Mars. Tyr fetches his father's cauldron for a feast which may relate to Yima's cup.

Moses has Manna, much like Manu's Soma, or Yima's Elixir Cup.

(I have in previous threads, talked about the association Manu has to the god of war, along with the god of death. Seen in archetypes matching manu, yemo, and trito. Like Tritos Zeus, his Sea brother Poseidon, and the god of death, Hades. Manu also being tied to the moon in pairings such as Mene (Selene), Helios, and Eos)

You're familiar with Egyptian myth. So I thought some of this may be of some help to you in figuring out which culture had an impact on the subject your dealing with.
Are these elements in the Battle of Kadesh poem? Or is this all Persian influence on the Moses story?
 
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@AlpinLuke
The more I look into this, the more stuff stands out at me, but the more stuff I need to carefully go over.

In the story of Yima, who gets a leper hand (Appearing in literature after the Avesta) and is part of a flood myth like Moses, and has a magic sword. He is tasked with giving out laws but passes on it, but then is made first King to rule over the world instead (Later is given as 4th shaw), which means he also had laws.
In his story, the earth is over populated and Yima makes the Earth swell numerous times to combat the overpopulation till Ahura Mazda warns him of a catastrophe. A horrid winter followed by snow melt (Presumably altered flood myth). He also had a magic 7 ringed cup that had elixir of immortality in it and ability to give visions. Yima may have adopted some of Manu's myth, like the flood. Or both figures are tied to the flood and why the mix up in stories.

In Hindu Vedic texts, Its Vaivasvata Manu (7th Manu). Who is visited by a fish who seeks his aid. So Manu puts it in a jar but the fish keeps growing too big. Manu swaps it into bigger and bigger containers till putting it in the ocean where it reveals its self to be Vishnu and warns of a coming flood. Manu is given Soma (Elixir of immortality by a Falcon). Yet I know of no story yet of Manu having a messed up hand, even in later literature. yet. Manu creates a series of laws though called the Laws of Manu.

Moses, like Yima, has a magic weapon of sorts, his staff. Like Yima, he has a leper hand. Unlike Yima being torn to pieces by Spitiyura, Moses parts Yam Suph. Which is closer to the Manu/Yemo myth in which its Manu who cuts Yemo. Moses also has the 10 commandments.

As per the Norse and Celtic versions. All 3 are compared to Mars via interpretatio Graeca, Nuada Airgetlam of Irish, and Lludd Llaw Eraint in Welsh from earlier Noden. Then Tyr. All 3 missing a hand, with one, Tyr, sticking it in the orifice of another being like Yima did.
Nuada is First King of the Tuatha De Danann, like Yima is first king in Avesta. Nuada also has a magic sword like Yima does.

Yima/Jamshid is followed by Zahhak, who is overthrown by Thraetona/Fereydun. Like Nuada being followed by Lugh Lamfada, who defeats Balor of the Evil Eye. (Which would suggest in Norse, that Tyr ruled before Fenrir bit his hand off, then rule passed to Loki when he killed Baldur).

Tyr is portrayed with a spear, like Greek Ares, while Mars is portrayed with a sword, like Nuada, and Yima. Moses and his staff seem rather more Greek and Norse like. Though I know of no story about Mars or Ares involving their hand being messed up. It does seem to suggest some God of War influence on the Moses story though. If some these other one handed figures are rightfully associated to Mars. Tyr fetches his father's cauldron for a feast which may relate to Yima's cup.

Moses has Manna, much like Manu's Soma, or Yima's Elixir Cup.

(I have in previous threads, talked about the association Manu has to the god of war, along with the god of death. Seen in archetypes matching manu, yemo, and trito. Like Tritos Zeus, his Sea brother Poseidon, and the god of death, Hades. Manu also being tied to the moon in pairings such as Mene (Selene), Helios, and Eos)

You're familiar with Egyptian myth. So I thought some of this may be of some help to you in figuring out which culture had an impact on the subject your dealing with.
Are these elements in the Battle of Kadesh poem? Or is this all Persian influence on the Moses story?
Are you wondering if in Egyptian mythology there is a personage who could be compared with Moses?
At first sight I wouldn't say that. Osiris could recall the conception of travel, but a figure like Moses ...

Anyway at Kadesh there was Prince Khaemuaset [son of Ramses II and Isinofret]. He has been famous and remembered until Roman age as a great scholar and magician.
He became also High Priest of Ptah in Memphis. During the battle he was among the high commanders. So, if we want to explore the possibility that the battle was a kind of model for the tale of the Exodus ... he could have been our hero.
but, as obvious, he is not the hero in the poems which described the battle.
 
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Are you wondering if in Egyptian mythology there is a personage who could be compared with Moses?
At first sight I wouldn't say that. Osiris could recall the conception of travel, but a figure like Moses ...

Anyway at Kadesh there was Prince Khaemuaset [son of Ramses II and Isinofret]. He has been famous and remembered until Roman age as a great scholar and magician.
He became also High Priest of Ptah in Memphis. During the battle he was among the high commanders. So, if we want to explore the possibility that the battle was a kind of model for the tale of the Exodus ... he could have been our hero.
but, as obvious, he is not the hero in the poems which described the battle.
No, I just mean the information may or may not help you in proving your point about Persian influence, as much of Moses's tale matches Persian myths of the Middle Persian period. The Practices like the pole, ark, etc may be Egyptian, but the rest seems Persian.

We've discussed else where how Osiris Myth may have inspired some of these later myths as he is the twin (Like Yemo in pie killed by Manu) cut to pieces by the evil Set. Who is defeated by Horus (Like the later Trito figure), and Osiris's death causes a flood, with Horus accidentally cutting off the head of Isis in the form of a Bull. Also the Land of Manu inclusion and King Menes.
Many of the same pieces, but the Noah tale seems inspired by the Gilgamesh tale instead. The Moses tale on the other hand, seems to blend Egyptian and Persian influence. (Like the Leper hand seen in Leviticus)
 
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Yam wants to rule over the other gods and be the most powerful of all
Baʿal Hadad opposes Yam and slays him
Baʿal Hadad, with the help of Anat and Athirat, persuades El to allow him a palace
Baʿal Hadad commissions Kothar-wa-Khasis to build him a palace

The Vedivdad mentions that Ahura Mazda warns Yima that there will come a harsh winter storm followed by melted snow.[10] Ahura Mazda advises Yima to construct a Vara (Avestan: enclosure) in the form of a multi-level cavern, two miles (3 km) long and two miles (3 km) wide. This he is to populate with the fittest of men and women; and with two of every animal, bird and plant; and supply with food and water gathered the previous summer. Yima creates the Vara by crushing the earth with a stamp of his foot, and kneading it into shape as a potter does clay. He creates streets and buildings, and brings nearly two thousand people to live therein. He creates artificial light, and finally seals the Vara with a golden ring.

So after defeating the Sea "Yam", Baal Hadad has a city built, much like the Persian myth.

Not all pieces are the same though (Yam means "Sea", Yemo means "Twin" but is usually tied to sea and a flood), and I think a deep look into some of these myths is worth the time. Helps to date influence on each culture imo

Yam- Sea (Poseidon)
Mott-Death (Hades)
Baal-Hero (Zeus)

Osiris
Set
Horus

Yima
Zahhak
Fereydun

Nuada
Balor
Lugh

Its the same structure.
 
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If the Torah was actually compiled to its final form during the Babylonian captivity, perhaps reaching full final completion not long after the liberation from Babylon, like some writers have speculated, then the Torah compilers maybe had studied the conquest of Egypt by Kambujiya (Cambyses II), son of Khurush (Cyrus the Great),l. He took Egypt by defeating Pharaoh Psamtik III at the Battle of Pelusium in the much much later time of 525 BC. Which would have been a comparatively fresh story in roughly their own time post-Babylonian liberation.

Then they maybe made a new story using that Kambujiya conquest as a model of sorts. Then added in elements like the Pharaoh (Psamtik III) destroyed by the suddenly surging waters of the Red Sea. Changed the agent of destruction from Kambujiya to "Moses". Then back projected that far back to a much more distant time in the past, changing Psamtik III to Rameses II.

Just laying out the possibilities. Just making some layman very layman conjecture.
Again there is a mention of Ramses II as the pharaoh in the Exodos. I thought that the name of the pharaoh was not given in Exodus The Book of Exodus is considered the word of God by many religious persons. If the pharaoh is not named Ramses The Second in Exodus then there is no reason to assume that the pharaoh of Exodus was said to be Ramses II by God all known or supposed to be Ramses II by the writers. By the way, the earliest use of a regnal number I know was in AD 996, so even if the Pharaoh of Exodus was named as Ramses in the Book of Exodus, additional information would be needed to try to identify which Ramses it was. What reason do you have for supposing that the writers of Exodus the Pharoah of the Exodus was Ramses II?
 
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The Book of Exodus is considered the word of God by many religious persons. If the pharaoh is not named Ramses The Second in Exodus then there is no reason to assume that the pharaoh of Exodus was said to be Ramses II by God all known or supposed to be Ramses II by the writers.
Well, it wasn't written by god, so we can cross that off the list.

Chapter 47 of the Book of Genesis states that the Hebrews were given the Land of Goshen to reside in, but also that Joseph settled his father and brothers in the best part of the land, in the land of Rameses. The Book of Exodus mentions "Raamses" or
"Rameses" (both spellings appear in the Masoretic Text; Hebrew: רעמסס, romanized: Ra‘m[ə]sês) as one of the cities on whose construction the Israelites were forced to labour (Exodus 1:11) and from where they departed on their Exodus journey (Exodus 12:37 and Numbers 33:3). Understandably, this Ramesses has been identified by modern biblical archaeologists with the Pi-Ramesses of Ramesses II.[13] Still earlier, the 10th-century Bible exegete Rabbi Saadia Gaon believed that the biblical site of Ramesses had to be identified with Ain Shams.[14]

 
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No, I just mean the information may or may not help you in proving your point about Persian influence, as much of Moses's tale matches Persian myths of the Middle Persian period. The Practices like the pole, ark, etc may be Egyptian, but the rest seems Persian.

We've discussed else where how Osiris Myth may have inspired some of these later myths as he is the twin (Like Yemo in pie killed by Manu) cut to pieces by the evil Set. Who is defeated by Horus (Like the later Trito figure), and Osiris's death causes a flood, with Horus accidentally cutting off the head of Isis in the form of a Bull. Also the Land of Manu inclusion and King Menes.
Many of the same pieces, but the Noah tale seems inspired by the Gilgamesh tale instead. The Moses tale on the other hand, seems to blend Egyptian and Persian influence. (Like the Leper hand seen in Leviticus)
About this I guess there is a misunderstanding somewhere: I'm not thinking to Persian influence, but to Egyptian interpolations. And to be fair, I don't know enough Persian mythology to make such a hypothesis.
 
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About this I guess there is a misunderstanding somewhere: I'm not thinking to Persian influence, but to Egyptian interpolations. And to be fair, I don't know enough Persian mythology to make such a hypothesis.
Oh I understand that, regarding the Egyptians. I just highlight the possible Persian influence as additional info possibly to dating, and propaganda angle. Egyptians, as enemies to the Persians who just freed the Israelites from Babylon. Shows a favoring towards their liberators on some level that helps to date some of it all. The Song of the Sea would be as you say, mostly Egyptian, but Leviticus, which also deals with Moses, has the Leper hand bit which seems to reflect Persian influence. The Ba'al Cycle has no such Leper hand, or even a missing hand, as in the later Celtic and Norse variants of Nuada, Lludd, or Tyr.
If too far off subject though, i apologize.


Yima rules as king for three hundred years, and soon the earth was full of men, flocks of birds and herds of animals. He deprived the daevas, who were demonic servants of the evil Ahriman, of wealth, herds and reputation during his reign. Good men, however, lived lives of plenty, and were neither sick nor aged. Father and son walked together, each appearing no older than fifteen. Ahura Mazda visits him once more, warning him of this overpopulation. Yima, shining with light, faced southwards and pressed the golden seal against the earth and boring into it with the poniard, says "O Spenta Armaiti, kindly open asunder and stretch thyself afar, to bear flocks and herds and men."

This reminds me of Moses using his magic staff and putting it into the earth to part the sea (Or make the land swell?).
 
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Again there is a mention of Ramses II as the pharaoh in the Exodos. I thought that the name of the pharaoh was not given in Exodus The Book of Exodus is considered the word of God by many religious persons. If the pharaoh is not named Ramses The Second in Exodus then there is no reason to assume that the pharaoh of Exodus was said to be Ramses II by God all known or supposed to be Ramses II by the writers. By the way, the earliest use of a regnal number I know was in AD 996, so even if the Pharaoh of Exodus was named as Ramses in the Book of Exodus, additional information would be needed to try to identify which Ramses it was. What reason do you have for supposing that the writers of Exodus the Pharoah of the Exodus was Ramses II?
It is Moses who was originally Ramesses II. The Song of the Sea is a copy of Ramesses II's Poem of Pentaur, where he drives the Hittites into the river at the Battle of Kadesh. Kadesh is mentioned as being the city on the other side of the Sea of Reeds.
 
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About this I guess there is a misunderstanding somewhere: I'm not thinking to Persian influence, but to Egyptian interpolations. And to be fair, I don't know enough Persian mythology to make such a hypothesis.
Looking further at this, Persians may have adapted Egyptian myth.
In the Vendidad-Avestan texts, Yima is the son of Vivanghat and is the First King and Flood Hero, later cut to pieces by Spityura. Where the hero Thraetona/Fereydun, is the son of Abtin.

This matches the Rig Veda in which Surya is named Vivasvant and father to Manu and Yama (First King). With the hero Trita as son of Aptya Agni.

Cognates between Avestan and Vedic- Abtin and Aptya, Vivanghat and Vivasvant, Yima and Yama. Thrita/Thraetona and Trita.

The later Shahnameh though, matches one of the four Egyptian creation myths, that of Heliopolis and the myth of Osiris. Yima(Fereydun) is now the 4th Shaw of the Pishdadian dynasty, along with being the 4th generation (No longer the first man and first king as in the Avestan Vendidad). Same as Osiris being 4th generation.

In the Shahnameh, there is a royal family called the Pishdadian Dynasty. It follows as such

Pishdadians
1. Gayomart
2. Hushang
3. Tahmuras
4. Jamshid (Yima)
5. Zahhak

Heliopolis myth
1. Atum-Ra
2. Shu and Tefnut
3. Geb and Nut
4. Osiris, Isis, and Set
5. Horus


Yima, and Osiris both cut to pieces with Set technically ruling next where in Persian, Zahhak rules. Both the villain to Yima and Osiris.

Horus is the Hero in Egyptian who defeats Set and rules next, while in Persian, its Fereydun (Thraetona, from Thrita, from Trito) who defeats Zahhak.

So Persians under Cyrus the Great (time of Zarathustra) show signs of Egyptian influence. Suggesting that might have sparked Zarathustra's reformation. Egypt already having developed the idea of a "Supreme ruling god" through the earlier Atenism. The Persians ruling Egypt before the Greeks.

Which is interesting as Zoroastrian is credited with inspiring Israelite mono faith around YHWH, yet Zoroastrian seems inspired by Egyptian. Meaning Cyrus when he freed the Israelites, may not have been a follower of Zarathustra yet, as Zarathustra may not have been inspired yet till the conquest of Egypt.

Thoughts?

Edit-
Vedic versus Scythian myth for comparison

Vedic
1. Dyaus
2. Vivasvant Surya (son of Dyaus)
3. Manu and Yama (Manu is first man) children of Surya

Scythian
1.Tabitit
2. Papaios Son of Tabiti
3. Targitaos the first man. Son of Papaios (Yemo means "twin" and is brother to Manu the first man.)

We're not told Vivanghat's father is Avestan, so for fullest comparison, Vedic and Scythian works. Avestan is so close to Vedic.

So Yama/Yima used to be part of 3rd generation (First for man), but later becomes 4th shaw, matching Yima to place of Osiris.
 
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Looking further at this, Persians may have adapted Egyptian myth.
In the Vendidad-Avestan texts, Yima is the son of Vivanghat and is the First King and Flood Hero, later cut to pieces by Spityura. Where the hero Thraetona/Fereydun, is the son of Abtin.

This matches the Rig Veda in which Surya is named Vivasvant and father to Manu and Yama (First King). With the hero Trita as son of Aptya Agni.

Cognates between Avestan and Vedic- Abtin and Aptya, Vivanghat and Vivasvant, Yima and Yama. Thrita/Thraetona and Trita.

The later Shahnameh though, matches one of the four Egyptian creation myths, that of Heliopolis and the myth of Osiris. Yima(Fereydun) is now the 4th Shaw of the Pishdadian dynasty, along with being the 4th generation (No longer the first man and first king as in the Avestan Vendidad). Same as Osiris being 4th generation.

In the Shahnameh, there is a royal family called the Pishdadian Dynasty. It follows as such

Pishdadians
1. Gayomart
2. Hushang
3. Tahmuras
4. Jamshid (Yima)
5. Zahhak

Heliopolis myth
1. Atum-Ra
2. Shu and Tefnut
3. Geb and Nut
4. Osiris, Isis, and Set
5. Horus


Yima, and Osiris both cut to pieces with Set technically ruling next where in Persian, Zahhak rules. Both the villain to Yima and Osiris.

Horus is the Hero in Egyptian who defeats Set and rules next, while in Persian, its Fereydun (Thraetona, from Thrita, from Trito) who defeats Zahhak.

So Persians under Cyrus the Great (time of Zarathustra) show signs of Egyptian influence. Suggesting that might have sparked Zarathustra's reformation. Egypt already having developed the idea of a "Supreme ruling god" through the earlier Atenism. The Persians ruling Egypt before the Greeks.

Which is interesting as Zoroastrian is credited with inspiring Israelite mono faith around YHWH, yet Zoroastrian seems inspired by Egyptian. Meaning Cyrus when he freed the Israelites, may not have been a follower of Zarathustra yet, as Zarathustra may not have been inspired yet till the conquest of Egypt.

Thoughts?

Edit-
Vedic versus Scythian myth for comparison

Vedic
1. Dyaus
2. Vivasvant Surya (son of Dyaus)
3. Manu and Yama (Manu is first man) children of Surya

Scythian
1.Tabitit
2. Papaios Son of Tabiti
3. Targitaos the first man. Son of Papaios (Yemo means "twin" and is brother to Manu the first man.)

We're not told Vivanghat's father is Avestan, so for fullest comparison, Vedic and Scythian works. Avestan is so close to Vedic.

So Yama/Yima used to be part of 3rd generation (First for man), but later becomes 4th shaw, matching Yima to place of Osiris.
This greatly contrast Canaanite myths seen in the Baal Cycle where El is the Supreme god and in the 2nd generation falls Yam, Mott, and Baal Hadad.

Where as Scythian, Avestan, Vedic and Latin myths reflect the 3rd place of the Sea figure Yemo/Yam/Neptune/Osiris etc.

Greek shows 2nd place like Canaanite with Oceanus, but also 3rd place with Poseidon.

Only Egyptian and Later Persian show Osiris and Jamshid (Yima) as 4th generation. Greek may reflect this influence through Poseidon's son Triton (4th generation), possibly from Tritos. As mentioned Thraetona/Thrita comes from Abtin in Avestan, and Trita from Aptya in Vedic. Abtin and Aptya being water beings. Trito figure likely born of the waters in this variant.

Sumerian myths are different with Utnapishtim being 9th generation in Gilgamesh tale and later Hebrew mirroring theirs with Noah as 10th generation.
 
Joined Mar 2024
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It is Moses who was originally Ramesses II. The Song of the Sea is a copy of Ramesses II's Poem of Pentaur, where he drives the Hittites into the river at the Battle of Kadesh. Kadesh is mentioned as being the city on the other side of the Sea of Reeds.
Watching a History Valley podcast from a couple of years ago that Jacob put up again to mark the recent death of Russell Gmirkin. Curiously, Gmirkin speaks of founding myths, in particular the myth of Moses of the Exodus. It occurred to me that perhaps the whole Moses businesses is influenced the events in the time of Ahmose (expulsion of the Hyksos) and the conquest of Canaan by Thutmose III. Again, curiously, Manetho (via Josephus) makes the pharaoh who expelled the Hyksos, ‘Tutimaeus’. So, might we hypothesise that in this period of history, a pharaoh did take over Jerusalem (Urusalim). Recently I think I posted somewhere about Jerusalem being on a trade route…can’t quite remember context or details. A place of strategic value for the New Kingdom of Egypt?

Anyhow, perhaps we might link this all to the building of that Temple to Amun-Ra of your hypothesis? Again, curiously - again! - do we see David the conquering king as Thutmose III, and Jedidiah (Solomon?), potentially another version of David himself, being responsible for building the temple - yet! - it was actually built as a Temple of the Aten to begin with? That’s how monotheism found its way there? Dadua of the Amarna Letters, equals David and Jedidiah! Of course, Dadua is transported in time to become David and Jedidiah, founders of the Davidian Monarchy, immediately preceding Rehoboam, even if, really, about three centuries separate Rehoboam from his founding father, Dadua of the Amarna Letters?

Gmirkin and Gad Barnea have similar theories on the Septuagint being a Hellenistic creation and compilation. Drawing on various sources, both Jewish and other, both written and oral history, as well as traditional stories, both Jewish and other, borrowed much and imaginatively created their Hellenistic founding stories. Including that temple that a pharaoh had built there!

And, maybe, as you posted, Ramesses gets a tangential mention too.
 
Joined Apr 2024
318 Posts | 148+
UK
Watching a History Valley podcast from a couple of years ago that Jacob put up again to mark the recent death of Russell Gmirkin. Curiously, Gmirkin speaks of founding myths, in particular the myth of Moses of the Exodus. It occurred to me that perhaps the whole Moses businesses is influenced the events in the time of Ahmose (expulsion of the Hyksos) and the conquest of Canaan by Thutmose III. Again, curiously, Manetho (via Josephus) makes the pharaoh who expelled the Hyksos, ‘Tutimaeus’. So, might we hypothesise that in this period of history, a pharaoh did take over Jerusalem (Urusalim). Recently I think I posted somewhere about Jerusalem being on a trade route…can’t quite remember context or details. A place of strategic value for the New Kingdom of Egypt?

Anyhow, perhaps we might link this all to the building of that Temple to Amun-Ra of your hypothesis? Again, curiously - again! - do we see David the conquering king as Thutmose III, and Jedidiah (Solomon?), potentially another version of David himself, being responsible for building the temple - yet! - it was actually built as a Temple of the Aten to begin with? That’s how monotheism found its way there? Dadua of the Amarna Letters, equals David and Jedidiah! Of course, Dadua is transported in time to become David and Jedidiah, founders of the Davidian Monarchy, immediately preceding Rehoboam, even if, really, about three centuries separate Rehoboam from his founding father, Dadua of the Amarna Letters?

Gmirkin and Gad Barnea have similar theories on the Septuagint being a Hellenistic creation and compilation. Drawing on various sources, both Jewish and other, both written and oral history, as well as traditional stories, both Jewish and other, borrowed much and imaginatively created their Hellenistic founding stories. Including that temple that a pharaoh had built there!

And, maybe, as you posted, Ramesses gets a tangential mention too.
If I were to offer a hypothesis it would be to answer the questions, a) why would Yahweh worshipping natives of Canaan have a founding myth based on Ramesses II's invasion of Canaan? b) Why would anyone think they can transform the most widely-known battle story to be a defeat of the Egyptian Pharoah?

Answer to a) Why would Yahweh worshipping natives of Canaan have a founding myth based on Ramesses II's invasion of Canaan?

We have the Shasu nomads, associated with Yahweh(s) based on historical records (Egyptian), were active in the Canaanite hill country bordering the Egyptian and Hittite Empires in 1300 BC.

In 1274 Ramesses II marches south to north on a similar route to the later Merenptah: Askelon (on the coast), Gezer (inland), Yanoam (possibly toward coast in later Palestine), Israel (to the north) and Kharu (Hurrian Syria). He marches through these countries, across the plain of Ginah on route to Kadesh. He encounters Shashu as both mercenaries and enemies.

He fights the Hittites at Kadesh - but only to a draw. So he returns to Egypt and on the way back writes his version the story of the invasion, in stone, in many locations (of which six survive even today) and on papyrus in at least as many locations. In this he includes an important detail; a mobile box shrine, with two winged humanoids atop, in a tent, surrounded by four armies.

My hypothesis would be that on his return he either built a temple in Jerusalem or stopped at one, where left his mobile shrine, along with a Uraeus and a copy of the story. He also begins settling Shashu into non-nomadic lifestyles in Canaan.

Over time the story is adopted as the foundation myth by the Shasu who see themselves as the conquerors, with their holy box 'ark' and Ramesses - now Moses - as one of them.

Answer b) Why would anyone think they can transform the most widely-known battle story to be a defeat of the Egyptian Pharoah?

Because the change takes place 600 years later. Between 600-700 BC, the kingdom of Judah, with the Shasu's Yahweh-worshipping culture firmly embedded in the region, is decimated by Assyria.

Despite many Judeans having fled to Egypt and setting up at least two temples there, the royal family under Josiah then turns against Egypt, which he believes failed Hezekiah, and Josiah's priests find a new copy of Moses' story which has ten commandments that change the religion, leading him to remove all worship of other gods from the temple.

The religious reformists are silent on the notable failure of this move to monotheism. Josiah attacks and is killed by the Pharaoh 'who has god with him'.
 
Joined Oct 2023
2,063 Posts | 486+
San Diego California
Last edited:
If I were to offer a hypothesis it would be to answer the questions, a) why would Yahweh worshipping natives of Canaan have a founding myth based on Ramesses II's invasion of Canaan? b) Why would anyone think they can transform the most widely-known battle story to be a defeat of the Egyptian Pharoah?

Answer to a) Why would Yahweh worshipping natives of Canaan have a founding myth based on Ramesses II's invasion of Canaan?

We have the Shasu nomads, associated with Yahweh(s) based on historical records (Egyptian), were active in the Canaanite hill country bordering the Egyptian and Hittite Empires in 1300 BC.

In 1274 Ramesses II marches south to north on a similar route to the later Merenptah: Askelon (on the coast), Gezer (inland), Yanoam (possibly toward coast in later Palestine), Israel (to the north) and Kharu (Hurrian Syria). He marches through these countries, across the plain of Ginah on route to Kadesh. He encounters Shashu as both mercenaries and enemies.

He fights the Hittites at Kadesh - but only to a draw. So he returns to Egypt and on the way back writes his version the story of the invasion, in stone, in many locations (of which six survive even today) and on papyrus in at least as many locations. In this he includes an important detail; a mobile box shrine, with two winged humanoids atop, in a tent, surrounded by four armies.

My hypothesis would be that on his return he either built a temple in Jerusalem or stopped at one, where left his mobile shrine, along with a Uraeus and a copy of the story. He also begins settling Shashu into non-nomadic lifestyles in Canaan.

Over time the story is adopted as the foundation myth by the Shasu who see themselves as the conquerors, with their holy box 'ark' and Ramesses - now Moses - as one of them.

Answer b) Why would anyone think they can transform the most widely-known battle story to be a defeat of the Egyptian Pharoah?

Because the change takes place 600 years later. Between 600-700 BC, the kingdom of Judah, with the Shasu's Yahweh-worshipping culture firmly embedded in the region, is decimated by Assyria.

Despite many Judeans having fled to Egypt and setting up at least two temples there, the royal family under Josiah then turns against Egypt, which he believes failed Hezekiah, and Josiah's priests find a new copy of Moses' story which has ten commandments that change the religion, leading him to remove all worship of other gods from the temple.

The religious reformists are silent on the notable failure of this move to monotheism. Josiah attacks and is killed by the Pharaoh 'who has god with him'.
I think an important point too is that the Hittites were forgotten about by the time Persians freed the Israelites as people moved away from using clay cuneiform texts and the hieroglyphs and Egyptian in general wasn't accessible to most people who would contest this story. Egypt itself had fallen into foreign hands. Note the absence of the Hittites from Biblical accounts.


Edit- I would imagine that Israelites knew this tale as a celebration (As Ramesses wouldn't be an "Invader" but a "Defender"). The Hittites being the "Invaders". Yet when Egypt failed to stop the Babylonian captivity, the Israelites flipped the script under their new Persian allies. Hittite enemies became eradicated from the histories and the tale got twisted so the Israelites were the ones defeating the Egyptians. Establishing a lack of need of Egyptian authority or aid, and an independence.
 
Joined Apr 2024
318 Posts | 148+
UK
I think an important point too is that the Hittites were forgotten about by the time Persians freed the Israelites as people moved away from using clay cuneiform texts and the hieroglyphs and Egyptian in general wasn't accessible to most people who would contest this story. Egypt itself had fallen into foreign hands. Note the absence of the Hittites from Biblical accounts.
Abraham is suppose to have married a Hittite.
 

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