Top 10 greatest Chinese military leaders

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I can accept Bai Qi as number 1. I don't agree with it, but I can accept it.
As for the rest of that post... Han Xin had a short career, but doesn't that make what he did even more remarkable? he kicked off the dynasty that was China's golden age in something like 4 years.
As for fighting third raters, he didn't always have the best competition, but I certainly wouldn't call Xiang Yu a third rater, even if he was on his last legs. On a lesser scale, I think Zhang Han sounds like worthy competition. Let's look at it this way, I think we can all agree that Hannibal was a great general. But outside of Scipio Africanus and Fabius Maximus, did he really have good opposition? For Scipio and Fabius, Han Xin had to deal with Zhang Han and Xiang Yu. The level of opposition doesn't make you a lesser commander, it only makes the person who dealt with better opposition a more impressive one. On that note I'd like to say that Bai Qi's opposition was pretty bad, aside from Lian Po, who I don't think he actually directly fought. But given that we seem to have completely different criteria, I realise that it will be hard for us to come to an understanding. Therefore, let us not try.
As for Sun Ce not being worth mentioning, I don't understand how someone who began his career at like, 16 and ended by the time he was around 24 and conquered like, one third of China in that time while besting tons of rivals (his opposition wasn't that great, but if you can tell I'm more about what they accomplished than what they were up against) and also not really suffering an important defeat in his conquests (not one that I've heard of). Not to mention that the kingdom he founded has gone down in legend.
Liu Bei is worth mentioning in my opinion, but I already had this debate with Oda
Xiang Yu kicked dynasty, not Han Xin. Han were later golden age, not Qin before. Zhang Han was backstabbed by his government. Han Xin was dealing with Xiang Yu on his last leg, when Xiang was completely outnumbered and encircled. Before that he was dealing with second raters at best. I would give second rater to Long Ju and third raters to others. Zhang Han was good but after his army was buried alive it was a miracle that he was able to pull anything in his short lived kingdom. I think that Zhang Han was able to defeat all rebels if Qin government was functioning half normal but even that was not a case.

I will repeat again about Bai Qi: he was fighting deeply rooted societies with their own cultural systems while Han Xin was fighting rag tag would be kingdoms with no roots and with invented borders and he was also smart enough to having avoided fighting the only tactical genius in the field as long as possible: until tactical genius was outnumbered and outresourced by a lot due to being a political moron. And then also Han Xin proved that he was politically on a same level as Xiang.

Sun Ce conquered perhaps 100.-200.000 km2 or so, what third of China are you writing about? Sun Wu territory was mostly conquered by generals under Sun Quan, not before. Liu Bei was defeated a lot and was unable to hold any territory before getting Zhuge Liang as chief advisor. Also his undoing was a military blunder beyond belief.
 
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The thing with Sun Ce is that he was the better general between him and his younger brother Sun Quan. Though that doesn't really matter because Sun Quan was the better administrator, probably the better strategist, and was fairly successful anyway. Especially given the limitations of his geographical position which limited his ability to launch offensive campaigns north of the Yangtze River.

Disregarding Sun Ce's military reputation, which is grossly exaggerated anyways. The reason why Sun Ce's death is a big deal has more to do with the exact timing. He died in 200 when Yuan Shao and Cao Cao were battling it out in the north. Generally the claim being that if Sun Ce had not died then he could have affected the outcome between Cao Cao and Yuan Shao. Naturally attacking Cao Cao who was closer to him than Yuan Shao.

But this is extremely problematic. Reason being first of all that Cao Cao controlled the north western corner of Yang Province that was north of the Yangtze River. Sun Ce controlled the area of Yang Province that was along the southern bank of the Yangtze River. Cao Cao also controlled Xu Province along the East China Sea, to Sun Ce's immediate north, as well as Yu Province to his immediate north west. All of that means that Sun Ce would have needed to force his way through Xu Province, or the north western part of Yang Province and through Yu Province to even get at Cao Cao's capital at Xuchang and Yan Province which was Cao Cao's heartland.

I can't recall if Sun Ce had a substantial fleet, but that would not help him in the Central Plains. He has no inherent naval advantage in this scenario, unlike Sun Quan and Liu Bei in Jing Province. As there is no river that flows into the Central Plains from the Yangtze River. There is also the matter of major fortresses in the east like Hefei and Shouchun which historically held Wu at bay for decades. Not to mention that Sun Ce didn't have the forces nor the cavalry to fight a war in the Central Plains.

Okay but what are some of the historical issues with Sun Ce's hypothetical northern campaign? Well in 200 Cao Cao managed to chase Liu Bei from Xu Province and then fend off Yuan Shao. Dealing Yuan Shao a decisive and costly defeat. Furthermore he was able to defeat Yuan Shao's invasion completely within the year 200 (from first month to tenth month). That means Sun Ce's hypothetical invasion likely would not have accomplished much. Once Cao Cao had routed Yuan Shao he could have turned around to deal with Sun Ce's invasion. Which probably would not have been an extremely large or capable army in any case.

Possible scenarios might be Sun Ce having to siege out that northern portion of Yang Province. So Hefei and Shouchun specifically. Or knowing him, probably an attempt to make a mad dash for Xuchang. I am unsure if this was even feasible given all of the obstacles from the Yangtze River to Xuchang. But if he attempted it then it would have been a chaotic advance which would have made him vulnerable to a counter attack. Also considering the logistical difficulties of such an advance and the size of his army, which likely would have needed to be small to pull off this rapid advance.

My question is really how far he would have gotten before being defeated or forced to turn back. I am not convinced that he could have even gotten past Shouchun and Hefei within a year. But if he decided to just march on Xuchang as quickly as possible, assuming that was even feasible, he probably would needlessly expose himself and get routed. But I reiterate that I don't see how he could have even gotten past Hefei and Shouchun in the first place. I mean in 208/209 Hefei managed to withstand around 10 months until Sun Quan retreated. Then in 214/215 Hefei managed to withstand a 16 month siege against Sun Quan. So it isn't like Sun Ce would have taken it in 200, or early in 201 he would either give up the siege due to lack of supplies, or if Cao Cao retaliated after defeating Yuan Shao.

Mind you that Sun Ce died on the 4th month of 200. That means he didn't even have a head start since Yuan Shao and Cao Cao were going at it already by the first month of 200. But Cao Cao had already routed Liu Bei and reclaimed Xu Province in the first month of 200 at that. I don't see how Sun Ce would have even had the time to do anything to Cao Cao. Now assuming that Sun Ce somehow succeeded and contributed to Cao Cao's demise, then he still wouldn't have a strong grasp over the Central Plains. The most likely outcome in this case is that Yuan Shao would then turn on Sun Ce and push him out of the Central Plains. Then potentially lead to Yuan Shao immediately trying to secure the eastern Yangtze and invading Yang Province.
Sun Ce was having a substantial fleet because he was dealing with another substantial fleet: that of Liu Biao of Jing. Suns were consolidating their hold of south east (also lots of tribal areas, they needed decades for that, also deep into Sun Quan's reign) and perhaps his only moment to push to north was when Cao Cao was busy with Yuan Shao. Sun Quan was for sure politically very able but he inherited administration and military structure of his father and brother. There was a bunch of highly competent people. Zhou Yu proved that in a way nobody expected (Red Cliffs).

Cao Cao was still lucky that Sun Ce passed so young although his cavalry was inferior to Cao Cao's. Cavalry was a main weapon in central plains.
 
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he was also smart enough to avoid fighting the only tactical genius in the field as long as possible: until tactical genius was outnumbered and outresourced by a lot due to being a political moron.
weird to see you praising Han Xin. Isn't it smart to avoid fighting the best general until you can fight him?
Sun Ce conquered perhaps 100.-200.000 km2 or so, what third of China are you writing about?
Okay, so maybe not a third, but he prepared the conquests of Sun Quan. Sun Quan might have never achieved what he did without Sun Ce doing the prep work
Also his undoing was a military blunder beyond belief.
God, he just went for a hunting trip.

Overall, let's just agree to disagree. You probably can't persuade me that Han Xin wasn't one of the three greatest generals in history, and I probably can't persuade you that Bai Qi wasn't the #1 general of ancient China
 
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Hard facts talk for Bai Qi: number of conquered cities, battles won, size of conquered territory and length of his career. If numbers of killed enemy soldiers are half right they are even more argument for Bai Qi.

Han Xin was not operating on a same scale. He was a good general doing his stuff in a half destroyed society where "miracles" have been easier to pull than in Bai Qi's times. I explained what and why.

Bai Qi's league were Caesar and Alexander,
 
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Current top 10:

10. Guo Ziyi
9. Xiang Yu
8. Li Mu
7. Wei Qing
6. Bayan of the Baarin
5. Huo Qubing
4. Bai Qi
3. Cao Cao
2. Li Jing
1. Han Xin
 
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As for Sun Ce not being worth mentioning, I don't understand how someone who began his career at like, 16 and ended by the time he was around 24 and conquered like, one third of China in that time while besting tons of rivals (his opposition wasn't that great, but if you can tell I'm more about what they accomplished than what they were up against) and also not really suffering an important defeat in his conquests (not one that I've heard of). Not to mention that the kingdom he founded has gone down in legend.
Sun Ce didn't conquer a third of China. He conquered like a third of Yang Province. He didn't rule the north western area above the Yangtze River (roughly Hefei and Shouchun) which was ruled by Yuan Shu and then fell to Cao Cao. He also didn't rule the far southern reaches of Yang Province which were still being pacified under Sun Quan. Really Sun Ce conquered the traditional territory of Wu.

The elephant in the room is that in the same amount of time Cao Cao had conquered more territory and against much stronger opponents. Sun Ce began his conquest of the Jiangdong Region in 194 and Cao Cao started his conquest of the Central Plain in 192. For context Yuan Shao ruled four northern provinces by 200, starting his career in 191. Sun Ce hadn't even conquered all of Yang Province by 200 and certainly had not dented his traditional enemies in Jing Province.

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Sun Ce didn't conquer a third of China. He conquered like a third of Yang Province. He didn't rule the north western area above the Yangtze River (roughly Hefei and Shouchun) which was ruled by Yuan Shu and then fell to Cao Cao. He also didn't rule the far southern reaches of Yang Province which were still being pacified under Sun Quan. Really Sun Ce conquered the traditional territory of Wu.

The elephant in the room is that in the same amount of time Cao Cao had conquered more territory and against much stronger opponents. Sun Ce began his conquest of the Jiangdong Region in 194 and Cao Cao started his conquest of the Central Plain in 192. For context Yuan Shao ruled four northern provinces by 200, starting his career in 191. Sun Ce hadn't even conquered all of Yang Province by 200 and certainly had not dented his traditional enemies in Jing Province.
I think he's still up there even if he didn't conquer a third of China.
Although I want to know, when you guys sat he didn't conquer 1/3 of China, do you mean modern day China or Chinese civilization in those days? I'm talking about roughly 1/3 of Han dynasty, not modern day China (of course I haven't actually measured how much land Sun Ce conquered, but I'm just estimating from the maps I've seen)
 
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I think he's still up there even if he didn't conquer a third of China.
Although I want to know, when you guys sat he didn't conquer 1/3 of China, do you mean modern day China or Chinese civilization in those days? I'm talking about roughly 1/3 of Han dynasty, not modern day China (of course I haven't actually measured how much land Sun Ce conquered, but I'm just estimating from the maps I've seen)
I am talking about 1/3 of the Han Dynasty. I created a map to show how Sun Ce did not conquer anything beyond only parts of Yang Province.
 
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I've been giving this some thought...

1. Cao Cao

2. Sima Yi

3. Guo Huai

4. Deng Ai

5. Sun Jian

6. Sun Ce

7. Lu Xun

8. Lu Meng

9. Zhou Yu

10. Zhuge Liang

11. Xu Huang

12. Zhang He

13. Cao Ren

14. Xiahou Yuan

15. Wang Jun

I am reposting here from the other thread:

My view has slightly changed since then.

Now I would put Sun Ce, Zhou Yu, and Zhuge Liang lower. Maybe even Sun Jian but I am unsure on that one. I would probably increase Xu Huang and Zhang He.
 
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Sima Yi was a good defender but it is easy to defend when resources of your side are bigger than of attacking side and when attacking side is additionaly limited by logistics issues. But Sima's coup was an act of political genius or close to it.

Then we have that incredibly naive Han Xin who was having more than one chance not only to survive to his old age and natural death but also to carve his domain. Naivety is a mild word, stupidity is a better one. In that light all his military achievements become smaller and Sima Yi's bigger. One can't be an ..... in one field and a genius in another, it doesn't work that way. So in my opinion Han Xin was fighting mostly military dilettants in a worn out age.

About Zhuge Liang: nobody ever considered how hard was for Han to conquer Yunnan also much later after Three kingdoms age and how "easily" he has achieved that. Then also nobody considers that he has been a policy maker, not only an executioner of other people's plans as Cao Cao's generals have been. There is no Cao Cao's general to be even considered comparing to Zhuge, they can be compared to Guan Yu and Wei Yan.
 
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Sima Yi was a good defender but it is easy to defend when resources of your side are bigger than of attacking side and when attacking side is additionaly limited by logistics issues. But Sima's coup was an act of political genius or close to it.
Indeed Sima Yi could make use of many resources when he was appointed to the Guanzhong Region. He could make use of troops mobilized from across Cao Rui's empire as well as grain which had been stored for decades in the case of such an event. It is notable that even Cao Zhen and Zhang He were able to contain Zhuge Liang. The terrain certainly did not favor Zhuge Liang's invasions, but was also a massive defensive deterrent. Cao Rui was not in a position to conquer Yi Province (Shu Han), nor Jing (Sun Wu), nor Yang (Sun Wu). Which his father Cao Pi had even attempted to conquer Wu and did not even dent them. Obvious Sima Yi wasn't an exception to anything, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a good general.

The Cao Wei Dynasty controlled important positions across their southern frontiers, namely Chencang which controlled one of the passes from Hanzhong, and the central position along the road to Chang'an. It was Chencang upon which Zhuge Liang's campaigns would have hinged. Cao Wei also controlled Xiangyang-Fancheng which prevented Shu Han and then Wu to punch through Jing Province. Then Hefei and Shouchun in the eastern Yangtze which kept Wu at bay for 70 years.

So while it is true that Cao Wei was the more powerful state, with a strong army and larger population. It was also one of the most devastated regions, and lacked the logistics to invade the southern terrain across Hanzhong and across the Yangtze River. That means Cao Wei's front line was the longest and required many reserves to hold against the two rival states. Arguably neither did Shu Han nor Sun Wu have the ability to actually invade the north. At least not until they could overcome major obstacles like Chencang, Xiangyang-Fancheng, or Hefei-Shouchun.

But the fact that Sima Yi used his defensive positions and resources to his advantage, instead of carrying out an incorrect strategy, is indicative of his ability. He could have lost the war in an afternoon but instead refused to budge and played the Shu Han army as the fools. He also had a much longer career than Zhuge Liang and fought against Wu and Liaodong. Even Sun Quan stated that "Sima Yi destroys armies like a god". Zhuge Liang doesn't have much for comparison. It might even be argued that Zhuge Liang's campaigns decimated the military forces of Shu Han. While his incompetent successor, Jiang Wei, destroyed what was left of them, with his repeated defeats at the hands of Guo Huai.

Then we have that incredibly naive Han Xin who was having more than one chance not only to survive to his old age and natural death but also to carve his domain. Naivety is a mild word, stupidity is a better one. In that light all his military achievements become smaller and Sima Yi's bigger. One can't be an ..... in one field and a genius in another, it doesn't work that way. So in my opinion Han Xin was fighting mostly military dilettants in a worn out age.
My main issue with Han Xin is the lack of sources on his career. So we don't know the exact circumstances of many of his campaigns, nor do we have information as to the exact forces which were committed. For example he clearly enjoyed certain advantages during his Guanzhong campaign which Zhuge Liang did not have in a similar scenario. Although he seems to have employed a primarily operational approach in which he divided his army into multiple columns. For example he marched his army through multiple passes, through Hanzhong into Guanzhong.

While overall Zhang Han was unprepared, and this was something that Emperor Cao Rui did not suffer from. That isn't even addressing how many troops were even deployed, and common sense would dictate that this was not even 2 to 1 in favor of Xiang Yu and his allies. I have no sympathy for these underdog fairy tales. That doesn't mean it wasn't an impressive campaign, but it certainly was not an impossible undertaking. Mind you I've scrutinized other generals and their campaigns pretty heavily. In particular Cao Cao, as it is simply untrue that he was severely outnumbered by Yuan Shao. The same goes for like 90% of historical campaigns.

While the other issue is to view Han Xin as exceptional. Well I mean Han Xin wasn't even the only general in history to conquer China, not even the first. He was also not in command of the entire war effort but only one theater at a time. He also never had to face a great power in China, least of all a naval power, which had the ability to shift the power dynamic and prevent unification, as we saw repeatedly from 208 until about the 1800's.

After the 1800's river fleets seem to become redundant for some reason. The south was not a factor until about 208 AD, that is not a coincidence because that was when Sun Quan developed the south by a great amount. Then Jin and many other regimes built on those developments by Sun Quan, and the south became a force to be reckoned with until about 1930. Though it is still the economic heartland of China, and has been for centuries since then.

Han Xin was also not at the forefront of military advancements. No real military reforms that were noticeably different from the Qin Dynasty, no experience fighting on the Steppe or against barbarians, again no experience in the South, no naval campaigns for him to lose. While Xiang Yu's capital at Pengcheng was north of the Yangtze River, so he never had to attempt forcing his way across the Yangtze. Han Xin was a good general but how would he have navigated the Three Kingdoms, or any other period of substantial warfare? It would be like reviving Napoleon in 1940 and telling him to conquer Europe. Or asking Genghis Khan to conquer China in 1570.

About Zhuge Liang: nobody ever considered how hard was for Han to conquer Yunnan also much later after Three kingdoms age and how "easily" he has achieved that. Then also nobody considers that he has been a policy maker, not only an executioner of other people's plans as Cao Cao's generals have been. There is no Cao Cao's general to be even considered comparing to Zhuge, they can be compared to Guan Yu and Wei Yan.
Zhuge Liang is highly overrated. It pains me to say because I actually like Zhuge Liang, but he was extremely minor until Liu Bei had already taken over Yi Province. He was only in administrative roles at that, sometimes militarily adjacent, until Liu Bei died and he was made Chancellor and Regent. At that point he could do pretty much whatever he wanted. But often found himself at odds with one bureaucrat or another.

Zhuge Liang's first commands were when Liu Bei invaded Yi Province, but did not command again until Liu Bei died. Certainly he gave advice, often times good advice, and he was not always heeded by Liu Bei. Moreover during Liu Bei's career he was superseded as a military adviser and planner by Pang Tong and Fa Zheng, as well as others. For example the Hanzhong Campaign had mostly to do with the advice of Fa Zheng.

For the record I do not fault him for not listening to Wei Yan, since Wei Yan was definitely in the wrong. Remember that Cao Zhen later led his own advance through the Ziwu Valley and he was intercepted and defeated by the Shu Han forces. The Ziwu Valley was extremely difficult, even more than the Chencang Valley. In the long run Zhuge Liang's only chance was to take Chencang in the center in order to push onto Chang'an.

During his first campaign Zhuge Liang took the Yangping Pass on the far west onto Wudu, Longshan, Tianshui, and then Jieting. But that was clearly intended to outflank Cao Wei positions along the mountains and to try and take the long way around. That didn't work because Zhang He routed Ma Su. The second campaign went directly on Chencang, that didn't work because the attempt to rapidly move on Chencang through the Chencang Valley created logistical difficulties and the garrison at Chencang simply refused to fall. In the third campaign he retook positions at Yinping and Wudu which had been taken by Guo Huai.

In the fourth campaign he returned to the western flank and tried to push on as in the first campaign. This is when Sima Yi was given command and the result was the stalemate at Mount Qi, in which Zhuge Liang ultimately retreated. The fifth and final campaign was through the Baoxie Valley in which Zhuge Liang tried to position himself between Chencang and Mei. This was clearly an attempt to move east of Chencang and bypass it to march on Chang'an. But the end result was the long stalemate on the Wuzhang Plains and Zhuge Liang succumbed to illness, after which his army was forced to withdraw.

So in that regard he is very similar to Sima Yi since Sima Yi did not command in the field under Cao Cao or Cao Pi. Despite being considered a very skilled administrator and with much military potential. Sima Yi did not command in the field until Cao Rui appointed him. But Zhuge Liang had already been contained by Cao Zhen and Zhang He. When Sima Yi was appointed afterwards that was only the icing on the cake. It is worth pointing out that Emperor Cao Rui himself was intimately involved in these western campaigns. He was clearly a capable individual but had no expertise in military matters.
 
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Great post, thanks.

Zhuge Liang conquered Yunnan before his Northern campaigns. What about that?
The area of modern day Yunnan was already part of Yi Province. The commanderies there were mostly inhabited by barbarian tribes that were technically subjects of the Han Dynasty. However they tended to carry out raiding, or refusing to pay tribute to the court from time to time. It had already happened when Liu Zhang governed Yi Province. But it really boiled when Zhuge Liang governed. Between 222 and 225 the various barbarian tribes could have potentially declared their support for Wu. They were refusing to give tribute to Emperor Liu Shan. So Zhuge Liang as Regent and Chancellor pacified the tribes militarily with help from his commander in the south Ma Zhong.
 
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According to my definition of 'ancient China' (which I like to say ends with the war of the eight princes), my current top 10 ancient Chinese generals list would go something like:

Note: Sun Bin would probably be #11.

#10. Li Mu
#9. Deng Ai
#8. Liu Xiu
#7. Wang Ben
#6. Wang Jian
#5. Wu Qi
#4. Cao Cao
#3. Sun Ce
#2. Bai Qi
#1. Han Xin


Did some reading up on Bai Qi a while ago, and he was an awesome general! Still doesn't beat Han Xin in my opinion, but who does?
If I were to expand the end date, the list would probably end up clogged with Tang dynasty commanders. Li Jing sounds like the best from what I've heard, but Li Shiji and Guo ZIyi were also brilliant
 
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According to my definition of 'ancient China' (which I like to say ends with the war of the eight princes), my current top 10 ancient Chinese generals list would go something like:

Note: Sun Bin would probably be #11.

#10. Li Mu
#9. Deng Ai
#8. Liu Xiu
#7. Wang Ben
#6. Wang Jian
#5. Wu Qi
#4. Cao Cao
#3. Sun Ce
#2. Bai Qi
#1. Han Xin


Did some reading up on Bai Qi a while ago, and he was an awesome general! Still doesn't beat Han Xin in my opinion, but who does?
If I were to expand the end date, the list would probably end up clogged with Tang dynasty commanders. Li Jing sounds like the best from what I've heard, but Li Shiji and Guo ZIyi were also brilliant
King Xiang.
 

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