It is entirely different. Korea did not use Chinese as a spoken language since the age of Goguryeo, Chinese writing held the same status Latin had in Medieval European countries. However, both Latin and Chinese writing at this point were standardized and easy to read regardless of your origin, which serves the exact purpose they are meant to. This is not the case for the Chu writting system. First of all the characters are structured very differently from the ones used by the northern states. It is clearly a local variation of the Huaxia writting system, and
it certainly is not one that is simply borrowed from Sinitic speaking population, but one that is developed independently as a local literary tradition.
View attachment 57662(A comparison of writting systems of different Warring States, Chu is on 4th row, Qin is on 5th row)
You can also tell how incredibly widespred Chu writting system is by its presence in a variety of regions and contexts. You have Confucious, Mouist and Taoist literatures, classical historical documents, Western Zhou historical documents, legal documents, shaman divinations, rituals and calanders etc. Many of these documents were found from the south of YangTzi River, especially in Changsha, which was a Chu stronghold at the time.
The famous Metal Tallies of Lord Qi of E, a travel document issued by Chu royal court to its feudal lord shows the commercial caravan of the lord (150 ships and 50 carts) travelled from Henan (Northern China) through the water channels to different directions. The southest region they had travelled to was the Yuan and Xiang Rivers in southern Hunan, close to the Nanling Mountains. The tallies instruct Chu officials across the realm to not tax the lord`s caravan.
View attachment 57664View attachment 57665
(The travel route of Lord Qi`s caravan, the writting system was standardized across the realm so that people in the periphery of Chu can still read the decrees of the king)
What really is "Vietnamese" in 300 BC? Thats a modern concept, like people have pointed out. And there`s no doubt that AA languages existed on the southern part of what is known as China today, its not really a question since the southern "barbarians" Huaxia cultures referred to as Baiyue and Baipu were most certainly speakers of AA. The question that is being put forward here is that whether the ruling class or the majority of Chu State spoke a non-Sinitic language. The evidence suggests that the ruling class spoke a Sinitic language with certain degree of AA influence, while OP claim that they spoke AA language, from a few words here and there. And then he go beyond the discussion of language and associate the modern identity of Vietnam with an entity that seized to exist since the 3rd century BC because "the Chinese are doing it"
So you traced Vietnamese back to Chu language using like three words? And you completely disregard the fact that other AA language speakers existed on the south of Chu, the various Yue tribes and other groups indegenious to the south of Yangtzi River. Instead you decide it is a good idea to claim that an entity that had its own sophisticated Sinitic writting traditions to speak an AA language. Also you failed to differentiate the Chu spech of early Zhou and the one close to the unification of Qin. Close to the unification, the northern states had long abandoned the concept that Chu was a barbarian state, and no evidence suggest that Chu and northern people cannot communicate with each other. It was noted that they had accents, but no more unintelligable than the other regional dialects.
So scholars having difficulty in undecipher certain characters= they are AA root words? How exactly did you come up with this conclusion, and which character are you referring to? This is not even flimsy evidence, its non-evidence.
No one had ever said that Chu language did not receive influence from AA languages. In fact I would be surprised if Yue tribes did not integrate into Chu culture in massive numbers. But automatically saying someone who came up with different conclusions than yours has nationalist bias? Okay who is the author without such bias? So far you have failed to present a single study where a scholar claims Chu language itself to be of AA origin. Instead you misinterpret their conclusions and disregard the existing evidence on Chu language.
There is no such thing as the "true ethnic of Chu/Han", ethnicity was fluid in pre-modern time and especially in and out of the Huaxia cultural sphere.
Huaxia was a cultural concept that was based largely on the shared cultural and ritual practices, and to a lesser extent, language. There is no difinitive distinction between Huaxia and non-Huaxia people on their periphery as identity and perception changes quickly and leave no permenant marks. Many many non-Huaxia people became Huaxia in the Warring States because they were conquered and subjegated to the cultural norms of the states. Some even willingly transform themselves to resemble their Huaxia counterparts, for instance the State of Zhongshan established by the Baidi people close to the northern steppes. Even if some subjects of the Chu states spoke non-Sinitic languages, it doesn`t mean that they consider themselves to be a separate ethnic group, and it certainly doesnt mean that their speech won`t change throughout the time.
This whole "ethnicity" debate surves nothing but a modern nationalistic narrative of the past. You keep complaining that Chinese government is biased in their propoganda but in the end you are doing exactly the same thing.
Like I have demonstrated, Liu was born in a region with influence from various Warring States and that being a peasant he is not likely an immigrant from the Chu regions that were lost to Qin. Most peasants who lived in Jianghan Plain during Qin`s conquest continued to live there, and eventually became culturally-similar to the Qin people from Guanzhong. Only Chu aristocratic families and their servants relocated to the east. In any case, Liu was most likely a local who developed affection of Chu culture because of its recent presence in the region.
I suggest yoyu to look at the map first. Of course Chu speakers would cluster in the Chen area, as thats where the capital was relocated after 279 BC. The capital was called Yingchen, and it used the city of Chen. Pei City, on the other hand was about 207 km away from Chen, and was geographically much loser to the border of Wei than it is to the Chu capital. An equivalence of what you said is that "since Beijing had many Manchu speakers during Qing, there must be an equal amount in Shijiazhuang, or other random cities in Zhili Province.
Also, are you telling me that a non-Sinitic language and a Sinitic one (Chen) sounded similar to Yang Xiong, because they share some non-basice words? So as brilliant as Yang Xiong is, he failed to document in his book Fangyan(Dialects) that the entire Chu region spoke a language that is completely different from other regions? Its hard to take your argument seriously at this point.
This is just purely your imagination. Chu royal family had intermarried with Qin royal family for generations at the end of Warring States. Many people from Chu State ended up serving the Qin court, like Li Si, the grand chancellor of Qin Shi Huang. And remind me why northern people would reject Chu culture because they idolized Taoism? Your argument makes no sense at all. One of the biggest Taoist patrons, the Empress Dou of Xiaowen, originated from Qinghe Prefacture, modern Hebei.
Also in its early ages the Han empire was basically a replica of Qin, from legal to military system. There are also plenty of Qin-northern states influence in Western Han culture. More importantly, none of these has remotely anything to do with the original debate on the origin of Chu language. You keep switching your argument between language family and cultural sense of belonging of some people who hailed from the former territory of Chu,
and you wrap these statements that are irrelevent to each other together with a non-exsistant concept of "Chu ethnic", its pointless. Liu Bang could have spoken whatever language he wants and still adopt certain aspects of the Chu culture into his court.
