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An ebook I read says he was actually a Black African and that the original Canaanites/Phoenicians were Blacks.
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Today one sees a fair number of Black Africans in the population of North Africa, in Moroccoand Libya in particular, but they are descendants of sl;aves brought across the Shara in the Middle Ages.
There is no reason to believe that there were any Black Africans living north of the Sahara in Roman times, except perhaps in Egypt.
Nor is there any reason to believe that ancient Carthaginians and Phoenicians were racially different to any appreciable degree from the Lebanese of today.
There is no reason to believe that there were any Black Africans living north of the Sahara in Roman times, except perhaps in Egypt.
Nor is there any reason to believe that ancient Carthaginians and Phoenicians were racially different to any appreciable degree from the Lebanese of today.
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We have every reason to believe that black Africans are indigenous to North Africa. The idea that black populations in N Africa are simply the descendents of slaves is nothing more but a projection of Western historiography associated with New world slavery being projected into ancient history.
The Berbers are the indigenes of N. Africa. And. Berber is a language. The speakers of Berberic language range from lightskin coastal Berbers to the Tuareg, who during the NAto No fly zone were referred to as black mercenaries.
As far as I am aware the Dna studies show that N African Dna maternally is European whereas paternally it is associated with Africans further south. You cant say its slavery. The slave trade of the Sahara revolved mostly around African women and yet it is the maternal ancestry of N Africa which links it to Europe.
The Berbers are the indigenes of N. Africa. And. Berber is a language. The speakers of Berberic language range from lightskin coastal Berbers to the Tuareg, who during the NAto No fly zone were referred to as black mercenaries.
As far as I am aware the Dna studies show that N African Dna maternally is European whereas paternally it is associated with Africans further south. You cant say its slavery. The slave trade of the Sahara revolved mostly around African women and yet it is the maternal ancestry of N Africa which links it to Europe.
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One of the Roman legions serving in modern England, had been raised in North Africa and was often described as "black-skinned"... I cannot offer a source for that atm, but when I find it, that should be the proof, that there were indeed black-skinned Africans living in the northern part of Africa at the time. Not thereby said that Hannibal was black.
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Duchy of the Archipelago
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This cannot be any solid proof. The term "black-skinned" might be a description of their skin compared to native Britons and/or Romans.
We should cease studying history through our perception and try to read the ancient books and sources from their writer's point of view.
An Arab would be considered black in medieval Germany (for example). A dark-haired Roman with a slight tan would be considered milk-white in ancient Ethiopia.
PS. Am I noticing a certain tendency of "discovering" black historical figures? What's the point in finding the pigmentation or race of a certain person? What will we be discussing next, the pubic hair length of Decius? "Hey guys, I've read a book which claims that Vespasian had anchor tattoos on his buttocks, prove me wrong!" ?
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Oxford
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We will never know, but it is interesting to note that in Picard's study of Carthaginian tombs back in the 50s and 60s, they made some discoveries:
The anthropological examination of skeletons found in tombs in Carthage proves that there is no racial unity [...] The so called Semitic type, characterized by the long, perfectly oval face, the thin aquiline nose and the lengthened cranium, enlarged over the nape of the neck has not been found in Carthage. On the other hand, another cranial form, with a fairly short face, prominent parietal bumps, farther forward and lower down than is usual is common [...] most of the Punic population in Carthage had African and even ..... ancestors" (Daily Life in Carthage at the Time of Hannibal, Charles Picard)
The anthropological examination of skeletons found in tombs in Carthage proves that there is no racial unity [...] The so called Semitic type, characterized by the long, perfectly oval face, the thin aquiline nose and the lengthened cranium, enlarged over the nape of the neck has not been found in Carthage. On the other hand, another cranial form, with a fairly short face, prominent parietal bumps, farther forward and lower down than is usual is common [...] most of the Punic population in Carthage had African and even ..... ancestors" (Daily Life in Carthage at the Time of Hannibal, Charles Picard)
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Cozy, traditional history tells us he was 'Semitic' or 'Caucasian'.
Afro-Centric history tells us he was black.
I suppose we will just have to content ourselves with the fact that he probably had a very good tan, and his 'ethnicity' (like that of everyone else in history) had no influence on what he was capable of achieving.
Afro-Centric history tells us he was black.
I suppose we will just have to content ourselves with the fact that he probably had a very good tan, and his 'ethnicity' (like that of everyone else in history) had no influence on what he was capable of achieving.
most of the carthagian coins i have seen show picture of goddess Tanit, but i guess their images of dieties were not too drasticly different than how they also saw themselves. Also in some other coins there are male figures.
Of course these can't give back skin tones
Zeno - Oriental Coins Database - Carthage, c. 300-264 BC
482. Silbershekel 300/264 v. Chr., Karthago. Kopf der Tanit / Pferd mit rückwärts gewandtem Kopf vor Dattelpalme, im Feld Stern. SNG Cop. 141. 7.59 g. Selten Vorzüglich
Schätzung (estimation): 750,-- EUR
Zeno - Oriental Coins Database - Carthage, Second Punic War, Occupation of Bruttium by Hannibal, 215-205 BC
#89710: Carthage, Second Punic War, Occupation of Bruttium by Hannibal, 215-205 BC
Wreathed head of Tanit left / Horse standing right.
Zeno - Oriental Coins Database - Carthage, c. 237-209 BC
SPAIN, Vicinity of Gades. Carthaginian Occupation. Circa 237-209 BC. AR Shekel (7.40 gm, 12h). Diademed male head (Hamilcar?) left / Prow of galley right with shield on its deck; below, dolphin right. Cf. MHC 15-19 (unlisted dies); CNH pg. 64, 10; Robinson, Punic 4(c); SNG BM Spain 91; SNG Copenhagen Supp. 1332. Good VF, lightly toned, light scratches from cleaning under tone. Very rare. ($3000)
Zeno - Oriental Coins Database - Carthage, Second Punic War, c. 220/218-201 BC
753038. SICULO-PUNIC. Second Punic War. 221-201 BC. AR Quarter Shekel (16mm, 2.05 gm, 11h). Akragas mint. Struck circa 213-211 BC. Sold For $365
SICULO-PUNIC. Second Punic War. 221-201 BC. AR Quarter Shekel (16mm, 2.05 gm, 11h). Akragas mint. Struck circa 213-211 BC. Male head right, wearing grain-ear wreath / Horse running right; Punic "H T" below. Burnett 152 (same dies); Visona 56; SNG Copenhagen (Carthage) 379. Good VF, light iridescent toning.
Zeno - Oriental Coins Database - Carthage, Second Punic War, c. 220/218-201 BC
CARTHAGE. Circa 221-201 BC. AR Shekel * Didrachm (6.84 gm). Second Punic War issue, struck circa 213-210 BC. Male head left / Elephant walking right; Punic "A" in exergue. Visona 55; MAA -; SNG Copenhagen 382. Superb EF, struck from worn dies. ($1500)
Of course these can't give back skin tones
Zeno - Oriental Coins Database - Carthage, c. 300-264 BC
482. Silbershekel 300/264 v. Chr., Karthago. Kopf der Tanit / Pferd mit rückwärts gewandtem Kopf vor Dattelpalme, im Feld Stern. SNG Cop. 141. 7.59 g. Selten Vorzüglich
Schätzung (estimation): 750,-- EUR
Zeno - Oriental Coins Database - Carthage, Second Punic War, Occupation of Bruttium by Hannibal, 215-205 BC
#89710: Carthage, Second Punic War, Occupation of Bruttium by Hannibal, 215-205 BC
Wreathed head of Tanit left / Horse standing right.
Zeno - Oriental Coins Database - Carthage, c. 237-209 BC
SPAIN, Vicinity of Gades. Carthaginian Occupation. Circa 237-209 BC. AR Shekel (7.40 gm, 12h). Diademed male head (Hamilcar?) left / Prow of galley right with shield on its deck; below, dolphin right. Cf. MHC 15-19 (unlisted dies); CNH pg. 64, 10; Robinson, Punic 4(c); SNG BM Spain 91; SNG Copenhagen Supp. 1332. Good VF, lightly toned, light scratches from cleaning under tone. Very rare. ($3000)
Zeno - Oriental Coins Database - Carthage, Second Punic War, c. 220/218-201 BC
753038. SICULO-PUNIC. Second Punic War. 221-201 BC. AR Quarter Shekel (16mm, 2.05 gm, 11h). Akragas mint. Struck circa 213-211 BC. Sold For $365
SICULO-PUNIC. Second Punic War. 221-201 BC. AR Quarter Shekel (16mm, 2.05 gm, 11h). Akragas mint. Struck circa 213-211 BC. Male head right, wearing grain-ear wreath / Horse running right; Punic "H T" below. Burnett 152 (same dies); Visona 56; SNG Copenhagen (Carthage) 379. Good VF, light iridescent toning.
Zeno - Oriental Coins Database - Carthage, Second Punic War, c. 220/218-201 BC
CARTHAGE. Circa 221-201 BC. AR Shekel * Didrachm (6.84 gm). Second Punic War issue, struck circa 213-210 BC. Male head left / Elephant walking right; Punic "A" in exergue. Visona 55; MAA -; SNG Copenhagen 382. Superb EF, struck from worn dies. ($1500)
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Hyperborea
I think I read an ebook by the same author, it said Nelson Mandela was a white European.
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Duchy of the Archipelago
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The Carthaginians were descended from Phoenician colonists. The Phoenicians were a Semitic people, much like the Arabs, Assyrians, Babylonians, and Israelites. The Phoenicians were neither black nor 'white,' at least if we take white to mean someone who looks to be of European descent. The ancient Phoenicians probably did not look much different than modern people who live in the Levant. That is to say they would have looked Middle-Eastern.
The Phoenician aristocracy of Carthage however did often intermarry with local Lybians or Numidians whose ancestors had inhabited North Africa long before the arrival of the Phoenicians. While stricly speaking neither of those peoples can be called 'black,' the fact that the Carthaginian aristocracy did occasionally take foreign brides, means that the possibility of black African ancestry somewhere Hannibal's family tree can't be ruled out. There were black people in North Africa then, just as now, and surely at least some of the local Numidians or Lybians would have had a mixed ancestry.
That being said, Afro-centric writers who claim he was a black man simply because he was born in Africa, are just as wrong as those who claim he was white. The only ancestry we know for certain that he had was Phoenician.
What did Hannibal look like? He would have had some Middle-Eastern features. Beyond that? Who knows.
The Phoenician aristocracy of Carthage however did often intermarry with local Lybians or Numidians whose ancestors had inhabited North Africa long before the arrival of the Phoenicians. While stricly speaking neither of those peoples can be called 'black,' the fact that the Carthaginian aristocracy did occasionally take foreign brides, means that the possibility of black African ancestry somewhere Hannibal's family tree can't be ruled out. There were black people in North Africa then, just as now, and surely at least some of the local Numidians or Lybians would have had a mixed ancestry.
That being said, Afro-centric writers who claim he was a black man simply because he was born in Africa, are just as wrong as those who claim he was white. The only ancestry we know for certain that he had was Phoenician.
What did Hannibal look like? He would have had some Middle-Eastern features. Beyond that? Who knows.
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Hyperborea
There's always one who has to come along and spoil a post by using intelligence and knowledge about what he's talking about.
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land of Califia
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As far as Saharan populations are concerned, the presence of ....... people there might be more ancient, but the great majority of inhabitants of the northern part of the Maghreb are clearly caucasoid and mediterranean looking, both Berber and Arab speakers, and there is no reason to think that their appearance has changed significantly over the last 2000 years. As for the trans-Saharan slave trade, it's well documented and it continued until the 19th century. It's no invention of biased Eurocentric historians.
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Cornwall
Unbelieveable thread.
As someone stated earlier there is often a mis-translation through the ages of what may be meant by 'black'. Dark-skinned was the usual meaning, or at least darker than the average fella!
As someone stated earlier there is often a mis-translation through the ages of what may be meant by 'black'. Dark-skinned was the usual meaning, or at least darker than the average fella!
Yes, black people were not around until the 1800's, every time history mentions someone is 'black' it's always talking about a tanned white person.
Joined Jan 2013
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Duchy of the Archipelago
Yes, black people were not around until the 1800's, every time history mentions someone is 'black' it's always talking about a tanned white person.
You didn't get johnincornwall's and my point, obviously.
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