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Joined Apr 2010
5,163 Posts | 447+
Oxford
Joined Mar 2012
3,316 Posts | 62+
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I never said that the transsaharan slave trade never took place. Am saying that the idea that blacks in Sahara and north Africa were the result simply of such trade is delusional.
And we have every reason to believe that the populations of N Africa after incursions by Phoenecians Greeks and Romans and vandals and Arabs differ substantially from what it originally started off as.
N. Africa is not an extension of Europe or Asia. There is nothing awry about assuming that populations in N. Africa were originally black. There is some irony in Westerners mocking afrocentrists as fantastic even as they use words such as Mediterranean or Caucasoid to promote ideas that originate from crap racist pseudoscientific history based on racial fantasies of a great white Caucasian race splitting into different parts and spreading civilization everywhere they go.
Joined Mar 2012
3,316 Posts | 62+
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I dont care to prove that Hannibal was black. That is something that could never be determined. But the idea that a historic population in Africa being anything and everything else apart from black is clearly a remnant of Eurocentric fantasies.
Greek and Romn commentary tel us that N. African indigenes were black. We have European writers of the 16th century which accepted Moors as black in popular culture as exemplified in Shakespeare's Othello. We go through this all the time at Historum:
Am gonna wait for the poster who says that just because Procobius describes the Moors as black skinned does not necessarily make them black skinned. Black sinned in Latin may mean something else in English than black skinned. That is the kind of sophistry they readily resort to.
We dont know what Hannibal looked like. However the population history of N. Africa makes it plausible that signifigant oportions of Carthage's population was no different in terms of physical feature from Africans further south. According to Mark:
Joined Mar 2012
3,316 Posts | 62+
Yes, black people were not around until the 1800's, every time history mentions someone is 'black' it's always talking about a tanned white person.
Or a white owned slave.
Joined Feb 2010
1,563 Posts | 1+
Is there any black community of indigenous non-slave origin in non-Saharan parts of the Maghreb?
Greek presence was marginal in the Maghreb and Phoenicians and Romans settled only in some urban centers and coastal areas. There is also no evidence that they outnumbered the native Berber population. As for the arabization of North Africa, it was probably rather a language and cultural shift, without a significant demographic change, because Arab and Berber speaking North Africans are genetically and anthropologically quite similar.
Your remark about North Africa not being an "extension" of Europe or Asia also fails to take into account that these terms are purely geographical and don't have any cultural or "racial" meaning. North Africa (particularly the Maghreb) has been cut off from the rest of the continent by the Sahara desert for several thousands of years, whereas its inhabitants have been in a much closer contact with populations of Southern Europe and Middle East. This is obvious to anybody with a basic knowledge of the history of that region.
Berber inhabitants of the Atlas have been living pretty isolated in their mountains for centuries and this allowed them to preserve their language and distinct culture. They have hardly any Roman, Phoenician or bedouin admixture and yet, they are overwhelmingly caucasoid and look nothing like sub-Saharan Africans:
I really have no idea what you tried to say with this. The words caucasoid and mediterranean express pretty well the fact that North Africans are anthropologically and genetically far closer to populations of Southern Europe and Middle East. Claiming that they are pseudoscientific and racist is no argument and insinuating that I have some racist agenda just because I have used them is absurd, you can't even know if I am white or not. Besides, afrocentrists from, e.g., US, UK are just as Western as their critics from the same countries. Being black doesn't make you any more non-Western.
Joined Feb 2010
1,563 Posts | 1+
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The Moors described by Procopius (6th century AD) were direct ancestors of Moroccan and Algerian Berbers. I have posted posted some examples of their appearance above and they are definitely not what would most English speakers today call "black people". It's no sophistry to suppose that the word used by Procopius meant rather swarthy or brown skinned, just as Central European Gypsies have been sometimes described as "black" by local Europeans. It's nothing strange that the semantic value of these terms differ in various places, periods and languages.
As for indigenous Berber inhabitants of ancient Numidia and Africa (as were Tunisia and northwestern Libya called back then), their direct descendants and heirs are Shawiya and Nafusa Berbers of the Aurès and Nafusa mountains and most of them are definitely not black either.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_wat0jvsRc"]Troupe de Rahaba - folkore chaoui des Aurès - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9wFLqkbihc"][/ame]
Joined Nov 2010
2,088 Posts | 37+
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Yes. This is easily verifiable too. Starting with Saharan rock art. You won't find any legitimate portrayal of anyone approaching "caucasian" either.
And people tend to exaggerate the trans-Saharan slave trade. It was only slightly lucrative for just a few kingdoms (Ghana, Garma, Kanem-Bornu). It did pick up during the the late-17th century. But even then, portraying black Maghrebians as purely the descendents of slaves is ridiculous. The region has gone through big changes.
Even the famous Black Guard of Morocco has been determined to be made up of wholly native born Moroccans.
Joined Nov 2010
2,088 Posts | 37+
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Procopius was writing in Greek. The Greek word "mavros" is used to describe a swarthy skin, not necessarily one that Europeans would call "black", in the sense that Sub-Saharan populations are "black". Thus a modern Greek might be described as "mavros" if he were darker than average.
I have read in various anthroplogical textbooks that there is a light-skinned element among the Riff Berbers, a group that has lived in isolation for some time. Some hisotrians consider that they represent a remnant of a very ancient Paleolithic population that has remained largely unmixed.
As for the importation into the Muslim World of "white" slaves from Europe, in particular to Algeria and Morocco, that certainly happened, but it was not enough to turn an originally "black" North African population "white", any more than the importation of large numbers of African slaves into the United States turned the entire population there "black".
It should be borne in mind that Muslims did not have the same phobia about racial mixing that Europeans do, with the result that in the Muslim World there has been far more mixing between "White" and "Black" than in European countries, such that a large part of the population of North Africa must carry some genes derived from south of the Sahara. It is entirely possible that the population of Morocco, particularly in the northern part, was originally "whiter" than it is now, and became darker through wide-spread mixing with slaves brought from south of the Sahara, in particular with female slaves.
I have read in various anthroplogical textbooks that there is a light-skinned element among the Riff Berbers, a group that has lived in isolation for some time. Some hisotrians consider that they represent a remnant of a very ancient Paleolithic population that has remained largely unmixed.
As for the importation into the Muslim World of "white" slaves from Europe, in particular to Algeria and Morocco, that certainly happened, but it was not enough to turn an originally "black" North African population "white", any more than the importation of large numbers of African slaves into the United States turned the entire population there "black".
It should be borne in mind that Muslims did not have the same phobia about racial mixing that Europeans do, with the result that in the Muslim World there has been far more mixing between "White" and "Black" than in European countries, such that a large part of the population of North Africa must carry some genes derived from south of the Sahara. It is entirely possible that the population of Morocco, particularly in the northern part, was originally "whiter" than it is now, and became darker through wide-spread mixing with slaves brought from south of the Sahara, in particular with female slaves.
Joined Feb 2010
1,563 Posts | 1+
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My question was if there is any black community of indigenous non-slave origin in non-Saharan parts of the Maghreb. I didn't ask about prehistoric Saharan rock art. Show me those indigenous blacks in the Atlas, where are they?
Where are those indigenous black Berbers of non-slave origin in the Maghreb?
Source pls.
Joined Feb 2010
1,563 Posts | 1+
How do you know that words like mavros, niger, black, černý etc. have always refered uniquely to sub-Saharan Africans, especially when they were used by populations which were not in close contact with them? I have already mentioned the example of Gypsies who have sometimes been called "black" by Europeans. Does it mean that there were some black sub-Saharan looking Gypsies who have just magically disappeared?
As for your other quotes, none of them proves that Greco-Roman and medieval Arab authors considered Maghrebi Berbers to be largely black, sub-Saharan looking population. Ibn Battuta actually even described women of Berber tribe Massufa (modern Mauritania) as being purely white. Ibn Battuta himself was a descendant of Berber tribe Lawata (descendants of ancient Mauri) and he never described himself and his people as black. I have already posted photos of Berber highlanders from the Maghreb who have hardly any European slave or bedouin admixture and they are clearly not black. Of course, I know that you are going to ignore this fact and keep repeating your quotes and mantra about white slaves, but everybody can see absurdity of such argument.
Joined Mar 2012
3,316 Posts | 62+
I imagined the Tuareg were indigenous to the Maghreb. And why does it have to be the non--saharan parts of the Magreb? Why such qualification?
I am aware of the idea that Arabization in N. Africa was a language and culture shift and had less to do with population movements.
The Sahara has not been the barrier you make it out to be, The transsharan trade which existed for so many centuries is evidence that that it was a means of transport and trade between North Africa and the rest of the Africa for a few thousand years. There are people who made civilizations in the middle of the Sahara desert. Am thinking of the Garamantes:
Lost Civilization Discovered in Sahara Desert | Fox News
Berber inhabitants of the Atlas have been living pretty isolated in their mountains for centuries and this allowed them to preserve their language and distinct culture. They have hardly any Roman, Phoenician or bedouin admixture and yet, they are overwhelmingly caucasoid and look nothing like sub-Saharan Africans:
This is eyeball archaeology. I refer you to the original post by Markdiekenes which i quoted. A study of Tombs from the period of Hannibal Barca which makes your claim of a no blacks allowed caucasoid North Africa fairly bombastic.
The words caucasoid and mediterranean are a euphemism for white in Western historiography. These words have been used to promote ideas about indigenous populations in Africa being branches of some great expansive white race which spread all over the world. These words have been used in particular to describe nomadic populations all over Africa with "narrow features" or Caucasian facial features, such as The Fulbe; Ethiopians, Shilluk, and even the Tutsi of Rwanda.
And am no genetic expert. However am not aware of any consensus within the scientific community that the genetic profile of N. African populations tie them to Europe more than Africa. I thought the general trend of N. African DNA studies showed maternal ancestry with Europe and paternal ancestry with Southern Africans.
Clearly, Ayazid does not associate those words with that historical baggage regardless of whether your mutterings are true or not. Move on.
Joined Mar 2012
3,316 Posts | 62+
I think it would be naive to assume that scientifically meaningless words like Caucasian and ....... somehow are not related to their racist past of pseudocientific racism. These words have no scientific value, today.
And in the past they were used to describe almost every single nomadic African population regardless of complexion. Including berberic speaking groups such as the Tuareg and other groups speaking languages which make up the Afroasiatic family that Berber makes up.
The Berber are indigenous to Africa a they speak an Africa an language originating from east Africa a, namely East Africa. Their lifestyle is tpi al of Nomadic culture of Sahara and the rest of africa. And I mean the blackest of Africa.
For anyone to mock or take srlfrighteous offence at the idea of Berbers being related to black Africans is clearly absurd. If there are similarities between Europe and n. Africa genetically does it not make sense to assume that it arose from Berber incursions into Europe such as the Almoravid conquest. Why does it have to be the other way round. Berber culture or anything like it does not exist outside of Africa.
Cool story, bro. In other news, Ayazid is being very clear and specific in his utilization. Deliberately reading racist impulses into terms that he uses in a clear, specific and non-racist way is simply trolling. He is trying to have a serious and (relatively) mature discussion with you. If you want anyone to take you seriously move on. If you don't want anyone to take you seriously, continue to deliberately misrepresent his position. That's your choice, and that's all I'm going to say.
Cool story, bro.
Joined Feb 2010
1,563 Posts | 1+
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The bulk of Maghrebi population lives in the Atlas mountain range and nearby coastal plains to the north of the Sahara. Tuaregs are geographically a peripheral group. Furthermore, they have been interacting with West African populations and mixed with them for centuries. It's logical that they are the most ....... Berber group. I am rather curious why there are no indigenous black people in, for example, the High Atlas, if the black presence in North Africa is really so ancient?
It's obvious to anybody familiar with the history of North Africa that the region has been in a much closer contact with Southern Europe and Middle East than with the rest of the continent (Carthago, Roman empire, Caliphate, Ottoman empire). And yes, the Saharan desert has been quite a huge barrier. The difference between Northern and Western Africa and the intimate connection between the former and Middle East is crystal clear.
That's one sentence from one relatively old study, definitely not any overwhelming evidence. Having said that, it's possible that there were ....... individuals brought from the South in the territory of Carthage, but it's very unlikely that most or a significant part of the population was ........
Terms of physical anthropology as "caucasoid", "......." or "mongoloid" were simply invented as a method of classifying human populations according to their somatic characteristics. Of course, external physical features as color of skin or texture of hair can't be the only way of classifying human groups, but that doesn't mean that they are necessarily useless or even "racist", they have their informative value for determining the relation between various human populations. North Africans are anthropologically mostly much closer to Europeans and Middle Easterners than sub-Saharan Africans and genetically they are closer to them too.
Some info with many useful links here:
Eurasian Origins of Berbers and modern North Africans. | Mathilda’s Anthropology Blog.
Joined Jan 2013
256 Posts | 0+
Duchy of the Archipelago
Joined Nov 2010
2,088 Posts | 37+
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Snowden: "The nomenclature and descriptions of blacks in northwest Africa also underscore the attentive detail of Greek and Roman observers. Several peoples from this area of Africa were specifically designated as Ethiopians by one or more ancient authors."
"Deprived of most of their sources of white slaves, the Ottomans turned more and more to Africa, which in the course of the nineteenth century came to provide the overwhelming majority of slaves used in Muslim countries from Morocco to Asia” (Lewis, 1990, Race and Slavery in the Middle East, p. 12)
"The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” (Brown, 1896, p. 203).
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