No.
Athens had significant numbers of thetes.
Poor adult men who nevertheless were citizens - and were allowed to vote and paid to vote.
Was the Acahmenid and later Sassanid Empire really that bad?
- Thread starter Mrbsct
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Athens had significant numbers of thetes.
Poor adult men who nevertheless were citizens - and were allowed to vote and paid to vote.
Joined Aug 2009
11,736 Posts | 5,403+
Athens, Greece
Joined Jan 2025
2,713 Posts | 2,052+
United States
Have you ever thought that it's because they are different languages? They can still mean basically the same thing however.
Anyways it's funny that you are arguing about Ancient Greek with a Greek.
Yet they don't. As demonstrated above, the Ancient Greek form of democracy departs significantly from the systems of government that are the primary anchor for the word "democracy" in modern-day usage. Solidaire, we must consider to be upholding the antiquated definition in a revanchist sort of capacity; an interesting hill to die on, though entirely infeasible — it being one individual supporting an ancient sense against several billion already using the word in a capacity much more relevant to and useful in modern life.
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Achemenids had better ranged weapons than the Greeks. Pretty much everyone did.
The Greeks had a cultural fixation with hand to hand combat when a well made composite bow could easily kill them from hundreds of meters away.
Not that easily.
The heavy Greek armour was rare for other countries. And it really worked against most arrows.
What I really meant was: Ancient Persians were genetically, religiously and administratively different from modern Iranians (post Islamic conquest).
Both British Empire and USA trace their foundations in all their fields from science to culture to art to others and institutions to Greece. But the only thing Achaemenid and modern Iranians share is just the persian language (that too not the same and different script). This continuity is as much as between ancient and modern egyptians, pakistani
Modern Iran traces its foundations in Safavi Iran and Abbasi Khilafat.
And Modern Arabs especially the gulf and levant ones are much different than those who conquered/liberated Iran who resembled modern day Yemen people more
THe greeks did have their own archers , slingers and peltasts for missle fire but yeah i think persian archers may have slightly outranged cretean ones..not sure about slingers range.
But that doest mean killing them would be easy their light troops were flexible and when in formation the heavy troops were not easy to kill with arrows at all. The persian MO was always to try and force the phalanx to move so as the amatuer warriors blundered apart theyd be much easier targets.
The Classical Greeks didn’t really go in for heavy armour and the Archaics weren’t all dedicated melee fighters, but having a decently sized shield works pretty well in any case.
It was not their armor that was unique. It was their large, heavy-duty shields, their slightly longer spears for melee, their more enclosed helms (actually got more exposed thus better for vision and hearing in later centuries), their consistently tight formations, and their high morale (partially through training, partially through cultural conditioning, partially through selective remembering of their history, partially through racism). Elite Achaemenid warriors, both on foot and especially on horse, had torso armor (scale I think) that was good or even better than what the Greeks wore.
The way they held their shields was probably the most unique aspect of the affair, though the Corinthian helm is also fairly odd as ancient helmets go.
The longer spears seem a debated topic; I’m not sure there’s too much evidence for tight orderly formations by the time of the Persian wars — Herodotus goes as far as to highlight the skirmishing false retreats by which the Spartans drew the Persians out of their shield wall, and the vast numbers of light-armed missile troops that are described to have participated intermingled with the hoplites reenforce that interpretation in my opinion.
Marathon seems to be the best example of the strengths and weaknesses of both sides , well known to the commanders of both hence why the pre battle manuevering meant either side could have won.
The "tightness" was relative to their opponents. I completely agree with the occasional intermingling of lighter troops within the phalanx, but compared to Near East foot formations where the majority of the troops needed quite a large amount of space to shoot with bows and hurl javelins, the hoplites were close enough for quick and mutual melee support. Also, most doru (the Greek spears) were 8 to 9 feet in length, typical Near East (NOT Anatolian or Balkan mind you) close combat spears were actually multi-purpose javelins, so 6 feet was their longest. Another note, not referring to Babylonian or Assyrian melee troops, those actually fought in a similar manner to hoplites...
Joined Feb 2015
2,047 Posts | 2,279+
Lindum Colonia
I can think of two at least. The UK allows resident Commonwealth and Irish citizens to vote in all elections. Citizens of countries which have been suspended from the Commonwealth also still retain their right to vote as can those of the Gambia and Zimbabwe which have formally left it. I haven't checked all the other Commonwealth countries for reciprocal relationships, though I imagine they will exist in some form or other, but UK citizens can vote in Irish General and Local elections although not European or Presidential ones.
Even though the UK has left the EU, EU citizens can still vote in British local elections. Most can do so only if they were resident before the end of 2020 and have remained so without a break but this restriction does not apply to those from Denmark, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal and Spain. Citizens of Cyprus and Malta, being in the Commonwealth, can of course vote in all elections.
I know the second paragraph refers to an event after the 2000 cut off but I hope it is allowed in order to clarify the situation.
Joined Jan 2025
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United States
If it were that simple then the Greeks would have been wiped out by the end of the day. However they lasted for multiple days. Large shields + heavy armor = lots of protection from arrows. They were also fighting in the phalanx, which would add even more protection from arrows. A lucky shot might be able to take one out from hundreds of meters away, but it would be a very lucky shot.
Joined Jan 2025
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Not really. The armies of the Classical Greeks were mostly comprised of hoplites, which were heavily armored. Not all of them were dedicated fighters sure, but at Thermopylae the Spartan contingent definitely was.
Melanoc3tus is actually a bit accurate, in the sense that the average Greek citizen soldier, or even the average Greek mercenary, for reasons both economical and practical, could only afford or would prefer torso armor made of linen or leather. Sometimes one or both greaves (despite this shin armor being so signature to Greeks that even in the Iliad it was a way to distinguish between the Danaans and the Trojans) would even be dropped, to allow for less fatigue and quicker sprinting. Forearm protectors were not common, especially as one arm was already covered by the large aspis. The Spartan contingent at Thermopylae was not the representative of the norm, even among themselves, for aside from the fact that all Spartiates had at least one kleros to pay for equipment, the companions of Leonidas were his hippeis, the elite 300, who were either the best among the new "graduates" of the Agoge, or those from the most influential and richest Spartiate families.
Joined Jan 2025
2,713 Posts | 2,052+
United States
That is true, thanks for reminding me. I do remember that now, but it's been over a year since I read anything on the Ancient Greeks. Apologies.
Joined Aug 2009
11,736 Posts | 5,403+
Athens, Greece
Thanks, this is quite unique I think and I suppose reflects the historical course of the British Empire and the UK.
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