Was the European treatment of Africa during colonization a much greater threat to culture than the Mongolians led by Khan?

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it seems many are zeroing in way too much on african nations and if slaves impacted their economies, instead of whether if Europeans caused greater historical and cultural damage to black africa than anywhere else.

IDK were from You've got the impression "many are zeroing" in this thread.

As for slavery, even if You didn't mentioned it, I'm amongst those believing that it was a phenomenon of such of a scale that one simply cannot avoid it.
 
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@Ighayere & @Sundiata1, I appreciate You make the time to pass and post in this thread too.


But I'm often baffled about how little we know about African history or how poorly studied it is, yet people manage to draw overly bold conclusions, which often unwittingly play into European colonial propaganda about the slave trade in Africa, and the need to suppress it. Look at all the myth-making around the Arab slave trade and Indian Ocean trade, which has now reached megalomanic proportions in the writings of many internet pundits... Without any reliable data at all...

Well, one of the very few occasions (if not the first) when I disagree with You.


The first (and main) motif why I disagree is exemplified by this:
When the trans-Atlantic slave trade ended, Asante's economy did not decline
Asante's economy was not dependent on the trans-Atlantic slave trade,

Since decades, when one is mentioning the slave trade, the image coming in mind is:

arton18887-b3479.jpg



Although, the real image should be:

slave_trade_map_large.jpg



It's logical, as the "Western" discussions, debates and studies on it are dating from sometime now. But it isn't normal, especially as it isn't about European colonial propaganda about the slave trade nor about myth-making Arab slave trade and Indian Ocean trade by internet pundits. It's just that European society started to question the slave trade rather early, something that didn't happened in the Oriental counterpart. Slave trade remained almost unquestioned as late as 20th c. in the Mideastern societies.

That brings another issue: data (even rough guestimates) are extremely few, difficult to have (if acces isn't just denied) for the Oriental part, unlike for the Western part. Which occults the full image and it's transforming the real African slave trade phenomenon and its implications into the trans-Atlantic slave trade and its implications which is a partial and truncated approach image. It's ignoring no less than 700 years of history and two of the three actors involved in that trade (=> Arab and African).

You both mentioned the commerce, the European pressure, monopoly and the rest (rightfully). But for more than 1 millennium trade involving Africa was based on African slaves. African slaves were one of the most appreciated merchandise. They were the equivalent of the Oriental spices, of Western manufactured goods. I know it's sounding crude and heartless nowadays, but it's how it was at the time: Africans were the best merchandise. It wasn't a plantation or a workshop needing constant labour, investment and care. And there wasn't the risk to see the source tarnishing.

As soon as we no longer talk about economy and trade on the local/small level, volens nolens, we can't talk about Africa and trade, even internal, even in non-slave states/regions without taking the slave trade into account. It was a too important part of the trade and it influenced all trade involving Africa too profoundly since 8th c. till early 20th c.

And a small example was already given in this thread:

Dahomey was deeply involved in the slave trade but it simply did not collapse at all when the slave trade ended, and it remained basically near the same sort of level it had been at when it was heavily involved in the slave trade. It transitioned to the palm oil trade in the early to mid 19th century and this became its major export.

Any good trader knows when how to renounce to the merchandise that doesn't sell anymore and reorient to the one more lucrative. But there is a but in this special kind of merchandise: it is, it was the engine, the future of Africa.

Roughly 13 million are estimated too have been shipped to the Americas over the course of 400 years, let's say, for the sake of argument about 8 million of those between 1750 and 1850. That's 2 million people per generation. Devastating, without a doubt. But if Subsaharan Africa had an estimated 100 million people in 1900, it can't have been almost apocalyptic.

(I wouldn't have had used "apocalyptic" as Robto, but "catastrophic")

As any good, cultivated and intelligent history lover European, I have to admit, without false modesty, that I know next to nothing on Black Africa's history.

But I do know that there are certain things that are true today and yesterday, in Europe and in Africa.

In a discussion on emigration from former communist countries in early '90s (before EU, Schengen) someone raised an aspect, the lost important aspect: at that moment, estimations gave between 5% and 10% of the population having left for Western Europe. The figure seemed to not justify being a catastrophe. But, as he said: "What's the profile of those 5-10%? Rather young, rather good at doing what he does, rather courageous for leaving everything behind. What we need now to put back our countries on the rails and close the gap with the West? Young, courageous, good at what they're doing people ... "

And guess what? After 30 years, Bulgaria and Romania are still lagging behind. Inspite of EU money, inspite of draconian economical reforms and measures (few people know that part, measures like that would had made even Germany explode into a revolution). Because they lost their future, and they're still loosing it. They're not kidnapped for being sold, they leave by themselves, but the phenomenon and the results are the same.

In absolute figures, as You said, the proportion of population lost in Africa seems small. But no slave trader looked for old or cripple people. They where looking for young, solid, health men and women. Exactly those supposed to push the region forward.

And for 1200 years! God-damned: 1200 years!

No region in the world was plagued by something, anything, targeting it's best part, for so long.
 
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It's logical, as the "Western" discussions, debates and studies on it are dating from sometime now. But it isn't normal, especially as it isn't about European colonial propaganda about the slave trade nor about myth-making Arab slave trade and Indian Ocean trade by internet pundits. It's just that European society started to question the slave trade rather early, something that didn't happened in the Oriental counterpart. Slave trade remained almost unquestioned as late as 20th c. in the Mideastern societies.

That brings another issue: data (even rough guestimates) are extremely few, difficult to have (if acces isn't just denied) for the Oriental part, unlike for the Western part. Which occults the full image and it's transforming the real African slave trade phenomenon and its implications into the trans-Atlantic slave trade and its implications which is a partial and truncated approach image. It's ignoring no less than 700 years of history and two of the three actors involved in that trade (=> Arab and African).

What actually happened is that when the trans-Atlantic slave trade ended Asante started importing slaves for use in its own society to an even greater degree than it had ever done before. If the paper by Austin had been freely accessible, this would have been very easy to see. I didn't state this initially simply because it was one of the things I was going to mention in passing in my longer responses to robto.

I do appreciate you bringing in another aspect to the discussion that may have been under-emphasized or overlooked, but I think that your speculation here is not quite getting the point I was making with regard to Asante specifically. I emphasized that Asante's economy was agriculturally based for a reason and I was, in a subsequent post to robto, going to mention why I brought up Austin's article: to emphasize that its agricultural production, and subsequently its trade with the states and peoples to its north increased substantially and that this is most likely why it didn't take a hit or decline when the trans-Atlantic slave trade ended: it was always exporting agricultural products to its north to begin with, and simply increased the volume of those exports, while increasing its importation of slaves into the Asante state.

Asante was not some big player or even a noticeable player in any part of the the "Oriental" slave trade. That is just not what Asante's economy was ever based on and also not what happened in the 19th century.

Actually, a state in the Gold Coast/Ghana area being a slave importer rather than exporter was not even something new. When the Portuguese were first active in the area (the Gold Coast) in the late 15th century and early 16th century, they were actually importing slaves into the Gold Coast (selling African slaves to peoples and polities in the Gold Coast) that the Portuguese had obtained from the southern part of what would later be Nigeria (and some other areas) and obtaining gold through those sales. Basically the Gold Coast was initially exporting gold to the the Portuguese, and later some other Europeans for a while, and was initially primarily importing, rather than exporting slaves. Gold was the principal export from the Gold Coast up until about the late 17th century when slaves were exported in sufficient volume that that trade could compete with gold exports.

Robin Law's article "The ‘golden age’ in the history of the Gold Coast: the seventeenth century" discusses this phenomenon in the first two pages of the paper:

"It is commonly held that the impact of the Atlantic slave trade on western Africa was negative and destructive, in narrowly economic as well as social and moral terms, since it involved the withdrawal of labour from the local economy, and stimulated violence and disorder which disrupted other economic activities. Contrariwise, it is commonly argued or assumed that the export of other commodities than slaves would have been more beneficial in terms of economic growth and development. It should be stressed, however, that the idea of alternative patterns of engagement with the world economy is not a purely counterfactual one, since in the early phase of European trade several areas of West Africa did export commodities other than (or alongside) slaves, including gold, ivory, and various sorts of agricultural or sylvan produce, such as pepper, dyewoods, and gum Arabic, although slaves had become paramount by the eighteenth century.1 In such cases, where other commodities were initially exported, but were then replaced by slaves, it should in principle be possible (depending, of course, on the extent and quality of the evidence) to test the proposition about the differential impacts of alternative trades empirically. The paramount instance was the Gold Coast (roughly, modern Ghana), which supplied mainly gold for the first two centuries of European contact (beginning in 1471) and shifted into slaves only from the late 17th century. The Gold Coast is also, largely because of its role as a supplier of gold, which led to the establishment there of permanent trading posts by most of the European nations involved in the trade, an area whose early history is, by West African standards, exceptionally well-documented. The Gold Coast also offers the opportunity of comparison with the region immediately to the east, which became known as the ‘Slave Coast’ (modern Togo, Bénin, and south-western Nigeria), which was always (until the 19th century) a supplier mainly of slaves.2

In the historiography of the Gold Coast, there is a strongly embedded view that the period of gold exports was one of positive economic growth (and indeed, ‘development’), until this was negated by the disruptive effects of the slave trade. This view was influentially articulated by Walter Rodney, in a journal article published in 1969.3 Rodney discussed the transition of the Gold Coast, between the fifteenth and eighteenth centuries, from being an exporter of gold to an exporter of slaves, and in particular drew attention to the arresting fact that in the earliest phase of Atlantic gold exports, the Gold Coast was not only uninvolved in the sale of slaves to Europeans, but was actually an importer of slaves. The Portuguese in the late 15th and early 16th centuries purchased slaves (together with locally made cotton cloth and beads) on the Slave Coast to the east, to re-sell on the Gold Coast in exchange for gold. It is unclear precisely how long this slave trade to the Gold Coast persisted, but it had clearly come to an end by the mid-17th century, when the Dutch (having replaced the Portuguese on the Gold Coast) were still buying cloth and beads on the Slave Coast for re-sale on the Gold Coast, but there is no longer any reference to slaves. (The Dutch – and other Europeans later – did import slaves from the Slave Coast to the Gold Coast, but seemingly only for their own use, in their coastal factories, rather than for sale to Africans.)4 Rodney also noted that, contrariwise, in the 18th century, when slaves had become the major export from the Gold Coast, the region now became an importer of gold, which Europeans paid to purchase slaves: this imported gold was initially mainly imported from Brazil by the Portuguese, but in the second half of the century from the coast to the west of the central Gold Coast.5"





In that same article (on p. 10) Law makes another relevant comment:

"There remains, of course, the critical point that the Gold Coast in the 17th century was importing labour, in the form of slaves, while the Slave Coast was exporting it. However, although it may seem clear that the Slave Coast region as a whole suffered depopulation through the slave trade,57 this was not necessarily true of particular societies within it. The major states of the Slave Coast – Allada, Hueda, and later Dahomey- in addition to exporting slaves, also employed slaves locally in considerable numbers.58 These were presumably mainly obtained by purchase or capture from outside, rather than through the enslavement of their own citizens. So, in fact, these areas may well have enjoyed population growth, at the same time as exporting slaves – as was probably also true of Asante in the Gold Coast in the 18th century. Of course, the demographic (and hence economic) cost of slaving was simply transferred onto other areas- weaker neighbouring communities, which were raided for slaves, or areas further inland, from which they were bought for re-sale at the coast. But this was equally true of the import of slaves into the Gold Coast – which benefited at the expense of the areas from which the slaves were transferred."

The article (which can be accessed freely from one of the two links above; one can actually download it from the first link) is a pretty interesting analysis of the more complex situation in that region.

Anyway, this complex situation is an example of why I emphasized to robto that some kind of specialized/focused studies were needed to get an understanding of these things. I think that if you had a more thorough knowledge of the region and the specifics of the various polities there, then you probably would not be speculating or implying that Asante suddenly became some sort of major player in the trans-Saharan slave trade, even if you hadn't already read Austin's paper where he discusses the increase in Asante agricultural production and exports to the Sahel, and the increase in slave importation into Asante in the 19th century.

You both mentioned the commerce, the European pressure, monopoly and the rest (rightfully). But for more than 1 millennium trade involving Africa was based on African slaves. African slaves were one of the most appreciated merchandise. They were the equivalent of the Oriental spices, of Western manufactured goods. I know it's sounding crude and heartless nowadays, but it's how it was at the time: Africans were the best merchandise. It wasn't a plantation or a workshop needing constant labour, investment and care. And there wasn't the risk to see the source tarnishing.

I do think there is some misunderstanding here. The east African slave trade did not really pick up in volume/scale until the 18th and 19th centuries. It had existed before that, but not at a scale where one could talk of that being the chief export from east Africa. For the trans-Saharan trade, while slaves were a significant part of that for many centuries, the volume of slaves exported during that longer period of time that it lasted (when compared to the trans-Atlantic trade) was much lower at any given point, and the trade was most likely lower in absolute numbers as well; meaning essentially that there were many slaves being exported but at a lower rate when compared to the trans-Atlantic slave trade (it was a more drawn out process basically; lower volume but over a longer period of time than the trans-Atlantic slave trade, and most likely a smaller absolute/total number of slaves exported as well). Additionally, the trans-Saharan trade was not necessarily dominated by, or often did not consist primarily of, slaves. Gold, ivory, ostrich feathers, tanned skins/leathers/textiles were also a huge component of this trans-Saharan trade and for some periods were most likely more significant than slaves as an export. Additionally it has to be kept in mind that the salt trade between the desert (the Sahara) and the Sahel (primarily the western and central Sudan) had a huge volume (this is analyzed in the article "Commercial Sectors in the Economy of the Nineteenth-Century Central Sudan: The Trans-Saharan Trade and the Desert-Side Salt Trade" (1984) by Paul E. Lovejoy), and considering that the trade for salt was, for centuries, primarily in gold rather than other items, this would mean that the high volume of the gold-salt trade between the Sahel and the Sahara makes it unlikely that slaves were the really the biggest export of Sahelian Africa to areas to its north.
 
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Additionally, the trans-Saharan trade was not necessarily dominated by, or often did not consist primarily of, slaves

I did said "African slaves were one of the most appreciated merchandise".

the volume of slaves exported during that longer period of time that it lasted (when compared to the trans-Atlantic trade) was much lower at any given point, and the trade was most likely lower in absolute numbers as well; meaning essentially that there were many

Estimates on total numbers put the Oriental trade slave at 30-40% of the trans-Atlantic slave trade (for the entire period, cca 8th to 20th c.).

I do think there is some misunderstanding here

Me too. But I'm afraid I'm thinking at another misunderstanding than the one You're thinking at ;)

I do not compare Oriental trade slave with trans-Atlantic trade slave. I personally believe that for a large scale view (geographically and temporarily) it's useless. Not to say that usually the comparation brings up even worse: whitewashing and blame throwing. I know You're not interested in that, as I'm not either.

Personally I do believe the slave trade has to be token as a whole and be placed into the global trade context. Too clarify: when I talk about trade slave, I do not include slaves resulting from battles, conquering "archenemies", etc. It's different. I'm talking about razzias, that were basically nothing else than expeditions for aquiering a merchandise bringing a good profit. Like the fur comptoirs in north America or Siberia.

The Oriental slave trade included Eastern Europe, and Europeans were active participants, making the same razzias as in sub-Saharian region, for selling it on the Mediterranean market. But that source area disappeared rather quickly (at historical scale) as the selling area was getting smaller (Italian peninsula, Iberian peninsula, Balkans stoped buying slaves). Bit the trade that was slowly tarnishing was given a sudden boost by the discoveries era and the globalisation of trade as it opened new markets and huge demands. The problem is that Africa became practically the only source for slaves. None amongst the other continents, for different reasons, were a source of slaves exports.



As for the rest of Your post, I can't say anything else than thank You, it's interesting and informative (as always). Thank You for it.
 
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I just wanted to bring up some of my own responses after reading through the arguments made in this thread:

1. The notion that the most advanced societies in pre-colonial Africa were involved in the slave trade is rather absurd. Observations by Africans, Europeans, Middle Eastern ethnic groups, and Asians (brought to work with some Europeans and a select few were put in positions high enough to know how to write) early on before the 1700's and during the late stages before the 1900's have placed many nations not involved in the trade on pedestals, additionally some nations that were involved later but weren't initially involved also were placed on pedestals. In fact, several Islamic peoples, whether certain Africans ethic groups or Arabs, looked at several eastern African nations as poorly structured, weak in leadership, and unstable. Both groups promptly used that justification to either create a partner-state, usually against the rulerships will, or to invade those kingdoms and take over entirely. The vast majority of these kingdoms were involved which already dismantles part of this theory.

2. The level of destruction caused by the slave trade has never been anywhere near as catastrophic as implied in this thread and a lot of writings on it are from perceptions of bias by primarily Europeans, but Muslims as well. Several states who were selling and yes, even buying slaves, from other Africans or Europeans, stopped in the early 1800's and in some cases before even that. Many powerful African nations from this point on until the 1900's were described, even by biased writers twisting the facts, as more powerful and impressive than those who had spoken of these kingdoms before. Some observers even noted the population sizes within several of them. So this just isn't accurate. If the trade was as destructive as satated in this thread, then these nations that have been around since the 14th or 15th century would have been worse off, not better off, and the newer states would have never formed and/or had gained as much power as they did in only 100 years or so. I believe the Mandinka would be a nation included in the latter.

3. I don't think there is a controversy about the premise of the thread topic. Europeans did actively push their imperialist ideology more so in Africa than any other geological region. They really had no interest in preserving even harmless insignificant architecture or landmarks that wouldn't obstruct their ideology, they clearly seemed to "despise" darker Africans the most and it is clear based on notations that the successful resistance to European colonialism for around 300 years in many parts of the continent contributed to that.

But we also must remember that darker Africans weren't really new to Europeans, or at least the ones running the show, no so much the peasant class, Darker Africans were in Europe during the middle ages some even ruling parts of Europe with their own family crests as the "white" royals did. Some weren't moors but many of them where moors, and despite this stubborn insistence over the decades that all, and later changed to, most moors being Arabs with few "black" moors if any, further research continues to contradict this, and it's becoming harder to deny that a large significant number of ruling moors (or non-moors) were indeed black, and mockery of moors across Europe often referred to black skinned moors to the point where certain paintings, broaches, and other trinkets would depict the moors in such a way you can't possibly mistake them for anything but black Africans. Even in recent centuries insults toward Black Africans had involved the word "moor" .

When you combine the hatred post crusade with the (then and still) biased perception of black Africa, also in combination with their capable resistance, it makes sense why the despisal rate was so high for the black African than any other group. However, there were some ethnic groups of black Africans that convinced Europeans to treat them a bit differently, let certain things slide, or even cause them to comment on their intelligence and ingenuity, though still from a biased lens. So when you ask the question about why the Europeans hated black Africans as much as they did you have to understand that it's not a black and white issue (huh puny) but that there are many complex reasons as for why they did.

Whew, I think I covered my perspective on all 3 arguments being made in this thread. I'd like to hear what you guys think of it.
 
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Weren't the Chinese not slaves but rather low paid desperate workers or indentured servants when the colonists brought them over to work on railroads in Africa and South America?
 
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Weren't the Chinese not slaves but rather low paid desperate workers or indentured servants when the colonists brought them over to work on railroads in Africa and South America?

Were there razzias kidnaping them from China? Were they bought on the slave markets in Africa and South America?
 
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Me too. But I'm afraid I'm thinking at another misunderstanding than the one You're thinking at ;)

I do get your point, however I did interpret the post that I commented on as implying that slaves were the main export from the continent for more than 1 millennium, which I wouldn't agree with, without clearer evidence. There would have been a period, during which the trans-Atlantic and the Oriental slave trade were both occurring, when it could probably be argued that slaves were the main export (or what trade with Africa by outside groups was "based on") but I do not see this period as being anywhere near "1 millennium" in length.

Were there razzias kidnaping them from China? Were they bought on the slave markets in Africa and South America?

The coolie trade in and from Asia (primarily China and India) is a separate topic so perhaps it shouldn't be discussed in detail in here (I think the discussion has already veered heavily away from what this thread probably was actually meant to be about - a comparison of the destruction or loss of "material culture" such as art, artifacts, buildings, handicrafts, documents, etc. around the world over the centuries and the perception or historical interpretation of the significance of that destruction or loss in different cases) but the coolie trade was sometimes compared to the slave trade even in the 19th century (i.e. not just retrospectively, in recent times) and it did sometimes involve kidnapping, deception, or occasionally force (see for example this, or this). There were numerous important differences between the coolie trade and various slave trades of course, but some of the parallels were noted even in the past.
 
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I do get your point, however I did interpret the post that I commented on as implying that slaves were the main export from the continent for more than 1 millennium, which I wouldn't agree with, without clearer evidence. There would have been a period, during which the trans-Atlantic and the Oriental slave trade were both occurring, when it could probably be argued that slaves were the main export (or what trade with Africa by outside groups was "based on") but I do not see this period as being anywhere near "1 millennium" in length.

To elaborate on this a bit, I mean that in the late 17th century through the 18th century it may be a plausible argument to say that the main export was slaves when taking into account both the trans-Atlantic and Oriental slave trades, but outside of that period I am not really convinced that the notion that slaves were what trade with Africa was based on (i.e. that this was the main export) is really credible.
 
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To elaborate on this a bit, I mean that in the late 17th century through the 18th century it may be a plausible argument to say that the main export was slaves

To be honest, all what I wrote on the slave trade wasn't about being the main export, not even about its proportion.

The reason I talked about is that I believe that the historiographical approach (in general, not just in this thread) is too often wrong as it suffers of a certain "presentism" in its analysis. It's somehow logical but it still shouldn't be there, as it's wrong and I think it's making us missing important points.

To make it simple: our modern humanism makes us seeing Black African slaves as humans and the tragedy of their lives. But it's wrong looking at it under that angle, as at the time they weren't humans: they were just merchandise. The slave trade functioned and was regulated exactly like any other trade: private investors gathered the means, gained exclusivities, aso.

It's why I was a bit (over?)-insisting on the slave trade. As any valuable merchandise, bringing good profits, it's influencing the global trade and has repercussions on the other merchandises trade. Put it bluntly, if slaves brings me a 5:1 profit and cooper only 3:1, I will deal rather with slaves than copper. Regardless me being an European or an Arab or a Black African.

And that makes me believe that doe to the length in time and the spatial extent of the Black African slave trade and maybe even more important, Black slaves ownership, it also changed the general perception as it de-humanised black people, unlike any other population. "Second class", "inferior" populations' existence was something natural till very late in modern times, but they still were perceived as humans. Not much so the Black slaves. They were owned, viewed and treated as a mule, an anomaly in modern times. And for the rather modern, advanced society to continue to accept that anomaly it was necessary to (subconsciously, instinctively if nothing more) deny the very existence of any form of somehow evolved culture. (*)

I suppose the difference in the view/approach on Black Africa(ns) compared to other places/populations has a lot to do with it.

And maybe I'm wrong (but I'm not convinced that I'm wrong ;)), the issue the OP raised is closer to the truth if we are referring to the Anglosphere but less if we referring to the Frenchysphere. Simply because French were less involved, and because Black slaves ownership in Frenchysphere was never even near to the Anglosphere (think US, ofcourse). There is also the aspect that the Anglophone Colonial "meme" was basically "White Man's Burden" while the Francophone Colonial "meme" was "La France Civilisatrice" (the civilizing France). None of them really true, but both extremely important in terms of difference in image and approach, be it "popular" or "academic".

I would dare to think that an argument in favour of that is just around the corner: Evidence of African civilizations: just look at the proportion of old sources on Black African architecture, artefacts, culture, aso that are French.

_________
(*) a somehow similar situation is regarding Gypsies in central and eastern Europe, another population existing as slave extremely late (approx. late 18th-19th)


_________
And, not to forget: HAPPY NEW YEAR!
 
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Just because there was more of an 'exploratory" aspect in the Frenches approach to the Black Africans than with the British, doesn't necessarily mean they weren't as bad as the British in burning and looting down cities. In fact, in Sierra Leone they burned cities, killed children, and poured cement in the sewage system. Don't forget they forced their freed, in name only, colonies to use a French controlled currency, and those that do had to give a percentage of their GDP yearly to France who deposited these funds into in their central bank. They also helped institute the external travel block that the UN and EU helped expand across the continent where open movement or trade among African borders would be near impossible because of red tape. Unless they were an approve exception.
 
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Just because there was more of an 'exploratory" aspect in the Frenches approach to the Black Africans than with the British, doesn't necessarily mean they weren't as bad as the British in burning and looting down cities. In fact, in Sierra Leone they burned cities, killed children, and poured cement in the sewage system. Don't forget they forced their freed, in name only, colonies to use a French controlled currency, and those that do had to give a percentage of their GDP yearly to France who deposited these funds into in their central bank. They also helped institute the external travel block that the UN and EU helped expand across the continent where open movement or trade among African borders would be near impossible because of red tape. Unless they were an approve exception.

I assume this is related to my last post. In case it is, I'm afraid You misread it.

It wasn't about one colonialism being better than another one, it was related to perception in colonialist countries (then and today), to approach, to viewd on African culture. And I've written that post mainly because the " European colonialists". It's a locution that is ignoring the (sometime big) difference between Portuguese, Spanish, French, English, Dutch, German colonialism and also the differences between periods.
 
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Don't move the goal posts : Slavery in Mauritania is going back to the islamic conquest. Nothing to do with modern ... trafficking.
What are you even talking about?

What does slavery in Mauritania have to do with the OP? Or even with the transatlantic slave trade, into which this thread has skidded?

Mr.-I-dropped-a-random-Wikipedia-link-as-if-I-just-dropped-the-mic...
 
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Some college kids in Belgium still sometimes sing songs about "handjes kappen in de Kongo".

To be honest, I don't like the "still" word in that phrase. AFAIK, there is nothing that can prove is an old stance, not that is linked to colonialism. Everything suggests that that stance is a new "creation", that appeared in extreme-right and extreme-nationalist Flemish student circles (I didn't heard about anything not even close to that in the French speaking student circles). See for example Waar komt 'De Congo is van ons' vandaan?).

At Pukkelpop festival, it was accompanied by Nazi salutes and a couple of Black ..... were physically agressed.

Personally, I believe it's about extremism: the same kind of attitude is expressed by the same groups, with the same virulence towards Arabs, East-Europeans, even Walloons. And it's extremely concerning. Also in the '20, but one century ago, we saw very young people acting like that. And we know were it led.

And by the way, when the Belgian state took over Leopold's colonial possessions, Leopold burnt most of the colonial records. I honestly can't think of a more literal form of censorship than that...

I disagree, it wasn't censorship. To me, saying it was censorship is putting Leopold on undeserving high standards.

Leopold was nothing more than a shark, worse, in nothing more than a capo de la cosa nostra. The only difference is that he had royal blood that he used (and abused), benefiting of an immunity and impunity that few others had.

Burning the archives wasn't censorship, it was burning the traces of his "governance" of the "Free" State of Congo.


Many people in Belgium are still offended when certain crimes of the colonial era are brought up, and pretend like it's all made up. Again, this isn't simple naiveté. This is willful ignorance that has, historically speaking, been cultivated by the state.

Belgium (and Belgians) is a bit of an atypical case, if You ask me.

Unlike all other colonial countries, Belgium never looked for colonies. And because of Leopold, it found herself with a huge colony (almost no Belgian even realize how huge is Congo!). Adding that after the Leopold's exactions, by comparison even a harsh colonial regime was an improvement makes that Belgians simply can dissociate from the colonial past more easily than other people: "we didn't wanted colonies, (it was donated by Leopold to the Belgian state) we tried and managed to improve the after king Leopold ... etc.".

If You wanna to respond that those are just "convenient excuses", I'll totally agree.



Poems about "our little negroes" and simplicity of the African people

IDK, Sundiata. It really depends on the period and context.

Maybe You are unaware (I wasn't either till recently) "nègre" is for some time now the equivalent of "......". But up to certain a moment (I think around mid 20th c) "nègre" meant sub-Saharian Blacks, one of the groups that formed the "black race" (that comprised Oceania "blacks" too, for example). The pejorative sense appeared lately.


________
Oh, I've almost forgotten: Tin-Tin. I didn't read any album. 😮
 
Joined Jul 2012
3,249 Posts | 1,783+
Benin City, Nigeria
@deaf tuner

I think you might have posted that reply to Sundiata1 in the wrong thread.

Your last reply to me in this thread brought up an interesting point and I'll give my thoughts on it later when I have more time.

Happy new year to you as well.
 
Joined Jul 2012
3,249 Posts | 1,783+
Benin City, Nigeria
I see. Well this thread is a bit derailed already so I guess it could fit in here just fine.
 

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