Were the ancient Persians really the benevolent tolerant saints they were throughout the ages like many people think of them to be?
- Thread starter LastGaze030
- Start date
Are you making a joke? I wasn't literally asking if the ancient Persians were CHRISTIAN saints.
Joined Jun 2019
222 Posts | 105+
London
I've always found the claim that the Archaemenids did not own slaves to be implausible. We're supposed to believe that they didn't engage in a universal practice in the ancient world? Also dismissing Greek sources that mention the Persians engaging in slavery as biased to me makes no sense because the Greeks themselves engaged in slavery and were open about this throughout their works. How are they slandering the Persians by portraying them as engaging in practice that they themselves partook in and saw as normal.
They were far from saints! and they did in fact kept slaves but it was not the actual wheel of economy. as for Greeks they thought everyone under the Great King was a slave, this comes for bad etymology understanding.
This is actually the real history behind this tale.
Xerxes wanted Masistes's wife first but slowly preferred Artaynte, the daughter of Masistes's wife over Masistes's wife herself. After Xerxes and Artaynte got into a romantic affair, Artaynte requested Xerxes that she wanted the robe that Xerxes was wearing. The robe was not an ordinary robe but a symbol of Persian monarchy. It basically means that Artaynte wanted to get the Persian throne for her father Masistes. Amestris(who was Xerxes's current wife and is also the current queen of Persia) then found out about Artaynte wanting the Persian throne for her father Masistes which resulted in Amestris wanting to brutalize Masistes's wife. Xerxes found about Amestris's request to him that she wanted to brutalize Masistes's wife as punishment for Artaynte's actions. Xerxes granted Amestris's request anyway despite Xerxes being shocked by Amestris's request but Xerxes said to Masistes that Masistes should just leave his current wife(Artaynte's mother) and get another wife. Masistes persistently declined Xerxes's advice which led to Masistes eventually finding out that his wife was brutalized. This angered Masistes which led to Masistes attempting to start a rebellion against Xerxes but Xerxes immediately found out about this and caught Masistes along with his soldiers and his sons. As a result, Masistes, all of his sons, and all of his soldiers were killed. End of story.
I don't know why Amestris targetted Masistes's wife instead of her daughter Artaynte but it's probably because Amestris thought that it was Masistes's wife's fault why Artaynte had a bad upbringing and bad personality. What's interesting about this is that this kind of Persian brutality didn't happen once because Xerxes also killed Masistes's sons along with Masistes and Masistes's soldiers.
Amestris's brutality towards Masistes's wife is also interesting considering that that brutality is usually reserved for rebels and this is probably because Amestrist thought that Artaynte wanting the Persian throne for his father automatically meant that Artaynte is going to start a rebellion.
That's the real history behind the tale.
From the Greek point of view, the Spartans, and "the 300" the Persians were "the big bad", but from the Old Testament Jewish point of view, the Persians were the "Mr. Nice Guy" empire in comparison to the ones before and after, the Assyrians scattering the Lost Tribes, the Babylonians exiling, the Seleucids under Antiochus provoking the Maccabean revolt, the Romans conquering then crushing revolts and destroying the temple and dispersing the people. The Persians by contrast allowed the temple to rebuild. So, with the exception of Haman, nice guys, and Esther got the Shah to turn against him before he got to massacre the Jews/Hebrews.
Joined Oct 2016
11,628 Posts | 3,749+
Australia
I watched before and after 4:25 on both vids, the first was actually about the OPPOSITE of anyone being 'saints' and the second was about someone throwing crap at a poet .
So it looks like you have NO source . In any case , its plain and simply wrong !
However the ancient Persians did have some good traits and did approach some issues differently from others . They where the first people to make legal animal rights and environmental protection laws , Cyrus sponsored the captive Jews to return to their homeland and generally they tried the political approach of 'not being total oppressive tyrants ' due to an old concept of 'wise governance' , rule of law, justice, etc .
eg.
"There are scholars who agree that the Cyrus Cylinder demonstrates a break from past traditions, and the ushering in of a new era.[90] A comparison of the Cyrus Cylinder with the inscriptions of previous conquerors of Babylon highlights this sharply. For instance, when Sennacherib, king of Assyria(705-681 BC) captured the city in 690 BC after a 15-month siege, Babylon endured a dreadful destruction and massacre.[91] Sennacharib describes how, having captured the King of Babylon, he had him tied up in the middle of the city like a pig. Then he describes how he destroyed Babylon, and filled the city with corpses, looted its wealth, broke its gods, burned and destroyed its houses down to foundations, demolished its walls and temples and dumped them in the canals. This is in stark contrast to Cyrus the Great and the Cyrus Cylinder. The past Assyrian, and Babylonian tradition of victor's justice was a common treatment for a defeated people at this time. Sennacherib's tone for instance, reflected his relish of and pride in massacre and destruction, which is totally at odds with the message of the Cyrus Cylinder.[92][93]
Another difference between the previously mentioned texts and the Cyrus Cylinder is that no other king ever returned captives to their homes as Cyrus did.[94] The Assyrians sometimes gave limited religious freedom to local cults and the people they conquered, but after a military conquest, the conquered people usually had to submit to the 'exalted might' of the Assyrian god Ashur; their own shrines and gods were demolished and people put under 'the yoke of Ashur.' Even Babylon itself did not show tolerance towards other beliefs and cults, for it had destroyed the temple of Jerusalem as well as the temple in Harran; furthermore, Nabonidus took other gods from their sacred shrines, and carried them to Babylon. This clearly shows that the Cyrus Cylinder was not a typical declaration that was keeping with the old traditions of the past.[95]
Cyrus Cylinder - Wikipedia
Joined Oct 2016
11,628 Posts | 3,749+
Australia
Then you need to rephrase your question and stop claiming its a quote from a scholar. Thats why people are telling you 'of course not every Persian was a saint' .
Try asking a sensible genuine question instead .
Joined Apr 2018
2,506 Posts | 1,542+
India
Nowhere in the first video is it mentioned even once that the Persians were 'saintly'. In fact it does mention at one point enslavement of vanquished rebels. And to be frank the relief looks all too similar to Assyrian and Babylonian reliefs with the same message. While the video does a good job reconstructing Persepolis it's no more detailed than a typical introductory documentary. I shouldn't jump to conclusion here but the ...., who is supposed to be one of the very few people who can read Cuniform, doesn't even read the tablet she is holding.
And really? Your conclusion is based on two youtube videos which you don't even bother to discuss in detail?
Joined Oct 2016
11,628 Posts | 3,749+
Australia
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Given the above feedback please explain this time reference you gave .
(later edit) - I see that no response will be possible for at east 2 weeks .
I am getting better at this ..... now, I can see a suspension coming merly from observing a thread title 
Joined Mar 2011
5,772 Posts | 497+
Library of Alexandria
Well, there were at points, hundreds of Greek cities inside the Persian Empire, and the Greeks owned slaves, so, the "Persians" technically also did. The Persian Empire was a huge collection of heterogeneous cultures, the ethnic Persians were probably a tiny proportion of their total population.
Joined Jan 2021
4,992 Posts | 3,605+
Conch Republic. "WE Seceded where others failed"
In christian "sunday school" history, the Persians apparently treated the Hebrews more kindly than others.
Well at least that's what I've been taught to believe. Or else.
(That was pre-1979 sunday school in the days of the Shah; Fairly certain that something different is taught about the Persians/Iranians these days. )
Well at least that's what I've been taught to believe. Or else.
(That was pre-1979 sunday school in the days of the Shah; Fairly certain that something different is taught about the Persians/Iranians these days.
)
Joined Oct 2016
11,628 Posts | 3,749+
Australia
In christian "sunday school" history, the Persians apparently treated the Hebrews more kindly than others.
Well at least that's what I've been taught to believe. Or else.
(That was pre-1979 sunday school in the days of the Shah; Fairly certain that something different is taught about the Persians/Iranians these days.
Thats because the Jews virtually elevated Cyrus the Great to a prophet status . And that was becasue for what Cyrus did for the Jews Read their praise of him in the Bible .
No foreighner did for the Jews what Cyrus did .
Joined Mar 2012
4,690 Posts | 1,352+
Bumpkinburg
Last edited:
From the boom of Isaiah on Cyrus the Great of the Achaemenid Empire.
45:1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut: 2 I will go before you and will level the mountains; I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron. 3 I will give you the treasures of darkness, riches stored in secret places, so that you may know that I am the LORD, the God of Israel, who summons you by name.”
So, Cyrus at the least, has been seen as the Messiah. Although, I don’t think Saints militarily conquer the world. As has been said, Cyrus was a different kind of Emperor to the others before him—relatively quite benevolent. But Darius, considered a great as well, was a usurper and unscrupulous in his rule - lying to basically legitimize the slaughter of King Bardiya because the Empire was so large that most people didn’t recognize the face of the younger son of Cyrus. I don’t think that sort of unscrupulous ambition is particularly consistent with sainthood.
But, when it came to Cyrus, even the Greeks had good things to say about him.
The Persian Empire was mostly a positive development, as it broke down borders and opened up trade across the region, and brought a order and a golden age to the region. Although, as has been mentioned, Egypt was often a flashpoint in the Empire.
By the time of Xenophon (who had good things to say about Cyrus), the empire had degraded a great deal. The succession had caused massive conflict across, and foreign armies of Greeks were brought in as mercenaries to fight Persian civil wars. Much like Alaric in the Roman Empire 700-800 years later when Gothic armies were used as mercenary forces in Roman civil wars, the Greek armies were provided a blueprint for conquering the Empire… and the Macedonians did just that in the coming decades. While Cyrus was a great among great leaders, some 200 years later, his Achaemenid dynasty and the Persian Empire had soured and weakened.
Later Persian Empires, while they share a history and legacy, are different entities from different eras.
45:1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut: 2 I will go before you and will level the mountains; I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron. 3 I will give you the treasures of darkness, riches stored in secret places, so that you may know that I am the LORD, the God of Israel, who summons you by name.”
So, Cyrus at the least, has been seen as the Messiah. Although, I don’t think Saints militarily conquer the world. As has been said, Cyrus was a different kind of Emperor to the others before him—relatively quite benevolent. But Darius, considered a great as well, was a usurper and unscrupulous in his rule - lying to basically legitimize the slaughter of King Bardiya because the Empire was so large that most people didn’t recognize the face of the younger son of Cyrus. I don’t think that sort of unscrupulous ambition is particularly consistent with sainthood.
But, when it came to Cyrus, even the Greeks had good things to say about him.
The Persian Empire was mostly a positive development, as it broke down borders and opened up trade across the region, and brought a order and a golden age to the region. Although, as has been mentioned, Egypt was often a flashpoint in the Empire.
By the time of Xenophon (who had good things to say about Cyrus), the empire had degraded a great deal. The succession had caused massive conflict across, and foreign armies of Greeks were brought in as mercenaries to fight Persian civil wars. Much like Alaric in the Roman Empire 700-800 years later when Gothic armies were used as mercenary forces in Roman civil wars, the Greek armies were provided a blueprint for conquering the Empire… and the Macedonians did just that in the coming decades. While Cyrus was a great among great leaders, some 200 years later, his Achaemenid dynasty and the Persian Empire had soured and weakened.
Later Persian Empires, while they share a history and legacy, are different entities from different eras.
Joined Jan 2021
1,513 Posts | 1,322+
Portugal
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What I find most amusing in this thread is the amount of people confused by the OPs question - which I for one fully understand, and likewise am curious to know.
As to the question of "who thinks the Persians were saints"... for one thing, all my university professors, apparently. They gave us Jewish texts to read, praising the tolerance and benevolence of the Persians. The Greek point of view was mentioned, but shoved under the rug as "bias" and not made much of. They certainly didn't give us Greek texts ennumerating the abuses of the Persians or waste time ennumerating them.
In other words, the Greeks had a negative view of the Persians in their time (monarchical and autocratic rulers, pathetic subjects devoid of civic conscience or liberty to engage in public affairs) but their image seems to have been sugarcoated along the way. I don't know when or why or by whom however. Other users have mentioned Cyrus and the Bible, that might be it.
As to the question of "who thinks the Persians were saints"... for one thing, all my university professors, apparently. They gave us Jewish texts to read, praising the tolerance and benevolence of the Persians. The Greek point of view was mentioned, but shoved under the rug as "bias" and not made much of. They certainly didn't give us Greek texts ennumerating the abuses of the Persians or waste time ennumerating them.
In other words, the Greeks had a negative view of the Persians in their time (monarchical and autocratic rulers, pathetic subjects devoid of civic conscience or liberty to engage in public affairs) but their image seems to have been sugarcoated along the way. I don't know when or why or by whom however. Other users have mentioned Cyrus and the Bible, that might be it.
Joined Oct 2016
11,628 Posts | 3,749+
Australia
Its not a sugar coated image . It looks like people are unaware of the old Zoroastrian tradition of 'wise kingship' and benevolent rule .
Of course , not all their kings where like that , some lived up to the tradition and others failed . It goes right back to their 'original homeland ' .
" In this system of governance, Aryan kings had a sacred responsibility to protect the people, establish and uphold the law, encourage human development and lead the progress of society to a better life. When Aryan kings maintained this sacred trust and ethical compact (what in modern days we call a social contract), they were said to rule in grace in keeping with their khvarenah.
" During the Jamshidi age (the age of Yima), the rule of law - a law grounded in grace and justice - developed and heralded a golden age during which time Airyana Vaeja, the Aryan homeland, became a paradise on earth. In legend, Jamshid is considered one of the wisest and greatest kings ever, but one who would nevertheless fell from grace, thus heralding the start of tragic epic cycles in Aryan history, cycles that rotated between good and evil times.
" all the world would have swarmed into Airyana Vaeja on account of its great beauty and ... because of its wise king and good government, law and order, noble people and serenity.
" Neither Cyrus, nor the magi priests in his court who acted as advisors, sought to convert the people of the conquered lands to the Mazdayasni Zoroastrian faith. On the contrary, Cyrus went to great lengths to restore the religious practices native to a region and a people. Cyrus was continuing the tradition established by the Persians when the Persians occupied Elamite lands during their migration south into Anshan, and when the coexisted peaceably with the Elamites.
" As we can see from the Babylonian and Jewish texts quoted above, the two groups viewed Cyrus as being on a mission from their individual concept of God. Cyrus' ecumenical approach has puzzled historians who have difficulty in accepting that a king who practiced one faith could embrace the right of others to practice their own faith. Zoroastrian Mazdayasnis share this ecumenical tradition with their Hindu cousins. The Zoroastrians, however, take the approach one step further. They believe that a person has a right to their ancestral faith, should the individual desire to follow that tradition, and that this faith is a part of a person's being and heritage. The right to practice one's belief was one of the principles of Cyrus' charter of rights."
" From these few references, we see that Cyrus was a devout and pious man. His Magian faith inspired him to value above all the qualities of character that made him care about the welfare of others. They inspired him to treat others with dignity and respect. He embraced honesty and trustworthiness while spurning greed and lust. Though supremely self-confident in his goals, he was humble when dealing with others.
Xenophon ends his narrative with a lament, that immediately upon Cyrus’ death, his heirs began to quarrel, and everything began to deteriorate including the Persian’s attitude towards religion."
zoroastrianheritage.blogspot.com
One also needs to understand the underlying principles of Zoroastrianism and their resultant influences within the Persian Empire ; they where amongst the first civilisations in history to establish human rights and laws for animal welfare and the protection of the environment. Also their societies where more egalitarian and sexually equal than others . To an extent they realised the value of incorporating the diversity of religion and culture . Some have also suggested they where the roots of modern western ethics and morals . Many of these principles have been incorporated into the modern 'Baha'i Faith' ; the most recent religious expression of this 'current ' , whose origin was in Persia .
Of course , not all their kings where like that , some lived up to the tradition and others failed . It goes right back to their 'original homeland ' .
" In this system of governance, Aryan kings had a sacred responsibility to protect the people, establish and uphold the law, encourage human development and lead the progress of society to a better life. When Aryan kings maintained this sacred trust and ethical compact (what in modern days we call a social contract), they were said to rule in grace in keeping with their khvarenah.
" During the Jamshidi age (the age of Yima), the rule of law - a law grounded in grace and justice - developed and heralded a golden age during which time Airyana Vaeja, the Aryan homeland, became a paradise on earth. In legend, Jamshid is considered one of the wisest and greatest kings ever, but one who would nevertheless fell from grace, thus heralding the start of tragic epic cycles in Aryan history, cycles that rotated between good and evil times.
" all the world would have swarmed into Airyana Vaeja on account of its great beauty and ... because of its wise king and good government, law and order, noble people and serenity.
" Neither Cyrus, nor the magi priests in his court who acted as advisors, sought to convert the people of the conquered lands to the Mazdayasni Zoroastrian faith. On the contrary, Cyrus went to great lengths to restore the religious practices native to a region and a people. Cyrus was continuing the tradition established by the Persians when the Persians occupied Elamite lands during their migration south into Anshan, and when the coexisted peaceably with the Elamites.
" As we can see from the Babylonian and Jewish texts quoted above, the two groups viewed Cyrus as being on a mission from their individual concept of God. Cyrus' ecumenical approach has puzzled historians who have difficulty in accepting that a king who practiced one faith could embrace the right of others to practice their own faith. Zoroastrian Mazdayasnis share this ecumenical tradition with their Hindu cousins. The Zoroastrians, however, take the approach one step further. They believe that a person has a right to their ancestral faith, should the individual desire to follow that tradition, and that this faith is a part of a person's being and heritage. The right to practice one's belief was one of the principles of Cyrus' charter of rights."
" From these few references, we see that Cyrus was a devout and pious man. His Magian faith inspired him to value above all the qualities of character that made him care about the welfare of others. They inspired him to treat others with dignity and respect. He embraced honesty and trustworthiness while spurning greed and lust. Though supremely self-confident in his goals, he was humble when dealing with others.
Xenophon ends his narrative with a lament, that immediately upon Cyrus’ death, his heirs began to quarrel, and everything began to deteriorate including the Persian’s attitude towards religion."
Cyrus the Great - His Religion & Inspiration
Cyrus the Great & Cyrus Cylinder Series: » Cyrus the Great (at Zoroastrian Heritage) » Cyrus the Great - His Religion & Inspiration » Cy...
zoroastrianheritage.blogspot.com
One also needs to understand the underlying principles of Zoroastrianism and their resultant influences within the Persian Empire ; they where amongst the first civilisations in history to establish human rights and laws for animal welfare and the protection of the environment. Also their societies where more egalitarian and sexually equal than others . To an extent they realised the value of incorporating the diversity of religion and culture . Some have also suggested they where the roots of modern western ethics and morals . Many of these principles have been incorporated into the modern 'Baha'i Faith' ; the most recent religious expression of this 'current ' , whose origin was in Persia .
Joined Oct 2016
11,628 Posts | 3,749+
Australia
I am curious why a 'University professor' would recommend such texts to students without a backup check as to see if they realised the significance of what they where reading ..... that is ; it is rather historically unusual for 'an Empire maker' to take such an approach It also sounds like you give a lot of validity to the Greek opinion, while other opinions that are different are labelled 'sugar-coated' .
Joined Oct 2022
59 Posts | 25+
Fazarh
Its not a sugar coated image . It looks like people are unaware of the old Zoroastrian tradition of 'wise kingship' and benevolent rule .
Of course , not all their kings where like that , some lived up to the tradition and others failed . It goes right back to their 'original homeland ' .
" In this system of governance, Aryan kings had a sacred responsibility to protect the people, establish and uphold the law, encourage human development and lead the progress of society to a better life. When Aryan kings maintained this sacred trust and ethical compact (what in modern days we call a social contract), they were said to rule in grace in keeping with their khvarenah.
" During the Jamshidi age (the age of Yima), the rule of law - a law grounded in grace and justice - developed and heralded a golden age during which time Airyana Vaeja, the Aryan homeland, became a paradise on earth. In legend, Jamshid is considered one of the wisest and greatest kings ever, but one who would nevertheless fell from grace, thus heralding the start of tragic epic cycles in Aryan history, cycles that rotated between good and evil times.
" all the world would have swarmed into Airyana Vaeja on account of its great beauty and ... because of its wise king and good government, law and order, noble people and serenity.
" Neither Cyrus, nor the magi priests in his court who acted as advisors, sought to convert the people of the conquered lands to the Mazdayasni Zoroastrian faith. On the contrary, Cyrus went to great lengths to restore the religious practices native to a region and a people. Cyrus was continuing the tradition established by the Persians when the Persians occupied Elamite lands during their migration south into Anshan, and when the coexisted peaceably with the Elamites.
" As we can see from the Babylonian and Jewish texts quoted above, the two groups viewed Cyrus as being on a mission from their individual concept of God. Cyrus' ecumenical approach has puzzled historians who have difficulty in accepting that a king who practiced one faith could embrace the right of others to practice their own faith. Zoroastrian Mazdayasnis share this ecumenical tradition with their Hindu cousins. The Zoroastrians, however, take the approach one step further. They believe that a person has a right to their ancestral faith, should the individual desire to follow that tradition, and that this faith is a part of a person's being and heritage. The right to practice one's belief was one of the principles of Cyrus' charter of rights."
" From these few references, we see that Cyrus was a devout and pious man. His Magian faith inspired him to value above all the qualities of character that made him care about the welfare of others. They inspired him to treat others with dignity and respect. He embraced honesty and trustworthiness while spurning greed and lust. Though supremely self-confident in his goals, he was humble when dealing with others.
Xenophon ends his narrative with a lament, that immediately upon Cyrus’ death, his heirs began to quarrel, and everything began to deteriorate including the Persian’s attitude towards religion."
Cyrus the Great - His Religion & Inspiration
Cyrus the Great & Cyrus Cylinder Series: » Cyrus the Great (at Zoroastrian Heritage) » Cyrus the Great - His Religion & Inspiration » Cy...
One also needs to understand the underlying principles of Zoroastrianism and their resultant influences within the Persian Empire ; they where amongst the first civilisations in history to establish human rights and laws for animal welfare and the protection of the environment. Also their societies where more egalitarian and sexually equal than others . To an extent they realised the value of incorporating the diversity of religion and culture . Some have also suggested they where the roots of modern western ethics and morals . Many of these principles have been incorporated into the modern 'Baha'i Faith' ; the most recent religious expression of this 'current ' , whose origin was in Persia .
Wise kingship? In Egypt each persian tyrant was more diabolical than the degenerate before him. It got worse and worse
Joined Jan 2021
1,513 Posts | 1,322+
Portugal
The idea at first was sound: to debunk what they thought was a commonly held opinion by presenting differing points of view... problem is, not only did nobody ever even think about the Persians, but the experiment ended up lopsided because the opinion of the Greeks was totally disregarded.
I would ask what gave you the impression that I give "a lot of validity to the opinion of the Greeks" since I only stated what it was, but after reading your other replies it seems to me like you're the one who gives too much credence to the Persians. "It looks like people are unaware of the old Zoroastrian tradition of 'wise kingship' and benevolent rule". A traditional empire of benevolence I bet. I'm only interested in observable acts, not "traditions".
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