Were the Oromo cavalry and the Zulu Impi the most effective units during colonization?

Joined Jan 2022
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Glonstow
First Italo-Ethiopian War - Wikipedia
Pretty much yes by far the Ethiopians armed by both Czarist Russia and France were the most successful in resisting European colonization although tragically Ethiopia was rules by Fachist Italy in from the mid 1930s to 1943.
Leftyhunter

your dates are a bit wrong, but Italy wasn't a colony, they weren't able to control enough of the country in order to place a proper colonial system in place, granted they did hold their gains until the British helped Ras along with the resistance, seems the Ethiopians could neither shrink the Italians footprint and the Italians had trouble expanding it.

it makes me wonder how the battle would have gone without the chemical gas,
 
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Joined Jul 2020
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your dates are a bit wrong, but Italy wasn't a colony, they weren't able to control enough of the country in order to place a proper colonial system in place, granted they did hold their gains until the British helped Ras along with the resistance, seems the Ethiopians could neither shrink the Italians footprint and the Italians had trouble expanding it.

it makes me wonder how the battle would have gone without the chemical gas,
Didn't the Italians occupy most of Ethiopia until 1943?
Leftyhunter
 
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Glonstow
Didn't the Italians occupy most of Ethiopia until 1943?
Leftyhunter

Their area of control was minimal by the time they were kicked out, once the initial British help came Italy fell apart pretty quickly and started scurrying around for a lot of time. In fact, their last stand was being cornered at Gondor which seems to have been made from a group of previously fragmented soldiers coming together,

The government was restored pretty fast, before the Italians were fully kicked iirc.
 
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This is inaccurate, they were the only one to win a war against a European power PERMANENTLY, and the Italians had no desire to try to continue with multiple battles after Adwa.

Multiple other nations defeated European powers in war, however the Europeans would continue because the other side was not really "done" and tension was still abound.

For example Asante and Mogadishu and the later Dervish which is attached to the former, had beaten Europeans in wars. There were others as well.

Several held off European powers in stalemates or with either side not really quitting but conceding something.

This is why I don't get the belief that the Ethiopian army, while impressive, is often cited as MOST Impressive. Could the Ethiopian government handle 30-40 years of consistent wars against the Italians? What if you replaced them with the French or Britain?

On paper Menelik nor Yohannes controlled the best weapons (on paper) on the continent, the Somali, Sudan, Dahomey are just some example of states with more fire and destruction power, and then the Asante proved you didn't even need that.
I guess it depends how one defines victory. The Ethiopians we're at least able to be free of European rules from 1896 to 1936 so forty years isn't bad . Not sure how long the other African tribes maintained their independence. In the case of Southern Africa the Afrikaners in the long run defeated every African tribe and didn't have to grant equal rights until the mid 1990s .
Leftyhunter
 
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Their area of control was minimal by the time they were kicked out, once the initial British help came Italy fell apart pretty quickly and started scurrying around for a lot of time. In fact, their last stand was being cornered at Gondor which seems to have been made from a group of previously fragmented soldiers coming together,

The government was restored pretty fast, before the Italians were fully kicked iirc.
So pretty much the Ethiopians had the most effective resistance. The Ethiopians had the numbers and at least some parity in firepower against the Italians.
Leftyhunter
 
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The Chronicle of Akakor
Last edited:
First Italo-Ethiopian War - Wikipedia
Pretty much yes by far the Ethiopians armed by both Czarist Russia and France were the most successful in resisting European colonization although tragically Ethiopia was rules by Fachist Italy in from the mid 1930s to 1943.
Leftyhunter

I think the country was splitted between fascist Italy and local officers and warriors. Not sure though.

The Boers also got defeated by the Zulu in 3 occasions: Piet Retief delegation, Weenen and Opathe.
Also by the Bapedi in 2 occasions, but the details about the Bapedi-Boer conflicts are kinda obscure
 
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Joined Jul 2012
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Benin City, Nigeria
"Outside Asante" is what I said, I was thinking of a different area.

Denkirya didn't have to my knowledge, significant battles with the Europeans. I think.

But I know there is one state im forgetting from the region but can't put my finger on it.

I know it was in that region, and it wasnt around the oyo and not in the Asante area, it clearly wasn't Benin, nor was it Dahomey or Porto-novo.

Im missing a regional power here but can't remember the name for the life of you. I'm sure someone will bring it up later and I'll slap my head wondering how I forgot, lol, happens all the time

In another thread from a few months ago, Sundiata1 made a post where he highlighted the resistance to European invasions by certain states during the mid to late 19th century. Maybe reading that post might jog your memory a bit, in case one of the states that he mentioned there is the one you are thinking of.

If you still can't recall the place, I would recommend looking through the section "The Scramble for Africa: Part 1, ca. 1870-1914" in A Military History of Africa (2013) by Timothy Stapleton. You might find the state you were thinking of which put up a notably strong resistance in there.

With regard to Benin, the details of the invasion of Benin cannot really be that well known without reading more detailed works about it, which most people do not have easy or immediate access to, so I think it should be kept in mind when making comparisons that the force which invaded Benin was a bit stronger than some of the other forces that some other groups on the continent faced in some of the earlier conflicts, due to the even more advanced weaponry that was in use at the time (weaponry which was similar to what the Sudanese Mahdists faced when they fought against the British in the 1890s). Not saying that you are completely unaware of this, but just thought I should bring it up for anyone that might be reading that might not be aware of that. There were two expeditions against Benin: the 1897 Punitive Expedition, and the 1899 Benin Territories Expedition (to defeat and capture those Benin commanders and soldiers who were still resisting British rule/authority); the accounts of the fighting in 1897 indicate that there was strong resistance all the way, even though the Benin soldiers were clearly heavily outgunned.
 
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Benin City, Nigeria
On paper Menelik nor Yohannes controlled the best weapons (on paper) on the continent, the Somali, Sudan, Dahomey are just some example of states with more fire and destruction power, and then the Asante proved you didn't even need that.

Actually I would say that the Ethiopians managed to build up the largest assortment of modern weapons out of any native African power in that period based on what I've read. There were some unique factors in their favor that allowed them to be in a position to do so (I can provide a link to a book which explains this in some detail later), but credit must be given to their leadership for taking advantage of that and executing well in terms of achieving that greater build up of modern weapons.
 
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I think the country was splitted between fascist Italy and local officers and warriors. Not sure though.

The Boers also got defeated by the Zulu in 3 occasions: Piet Retief delegation, Weenen and Opathe.
Also by the Bapedi in 2 occasions, but the details about the Bapedi-Boer conflicts are kinda obscure
True but at the end of the day the Afrikaners won at least by 1910 when a united independent white rulled Union of South Africa emerged until of course about 1994 when the ANC took over the country. Pretty much colonial powers could subdue the native Africans until of course post WWII weakened the Western European Colonial Powers and in the case of Portugal the Portugese had to face hostile nations such has the communist countries and even the US and Israel who decided to support the anti colonial movements especially in Angola although not necessarily for altruistic reasons.
Leftyhunter
 
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On earth.
Wassolu is too far west, I know it was more in the forest, and it wasn't a religious state, or at least they used traditional religion so no Islam. Maybe if was East of Dahomey? Or east of Sokoto/Oyo? I tried to look at some maps but they only give a few nations in the area and ren't useful.
As far as I know the most notable wars were those of the Asante, Dahomey, and Benin. Of these, Asante was probably the most successful; the plurality of Yoruba states signed protectorate status agreements, and as far as I know the Franco-Dahomean wars were relatively one-sided in terms of battle results.
 
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On earth.
Overall the Ethiopians we're the only ones to defeat a European power. My understanding is that Czarist Russia even supplied the Ethiopians with modern rifles because the Ethiopians are majority Coptic Christian and their religious beliefs are reasonably similar to the Russian Orthodox Church.
Ethiopian orthodoxy is, indeed, a coptic faith (this gets complicated, but politically speaking they had ties to the coptic church in Egypt), but the idea that it was synonymous or even extremely similar to Russian Orthodoxy was largely a construction by Russian actors who sought to establish ties with the Empire. One must remember Russia did have some interests in this region of Africa, but they also would have recognized actual conquest was impossible.
I dont think Ethiopians are Coptic. Isn't their version of Christianity the Orthodox Tewahedo Church?
Technically, they were during this period. The church was headed by a Copt taken from Egypt in a theoretical sense, however ecclesiastical power actually was in the hands of Ichege, with the Abun (the Egyptian) usually serving as a figurehead. The church by this point had its own, generally separate, history of schisms, controversies, and so on that made most of its members quite distinct.
 
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Glonstow
There were two expeditions against Benin: the 1897 Punitive Expedition, and the 1899 Benin Territories Expedition (to defeat and capture those Benin commanders and soldiers who were still resisting British rule/authority); the accounts of the fighting in 1897 indicate that there was strong resistance all the way, even though the Benin soldiers were clearly heavily outgunned.

Wikipedia needs a touch up and so do most academic articles then, because almost everything I find research paper wise seems to think there was only one expedition in 1987 and they say with their "evidence" that it was 99% one-sided with any resistance not really working.

Do you have any information of the 1897 expedition resistance leading into the British calling for the 1899 one? It would be real helpful I didn't even know if the 1899 one until today,
 
Joined Jan 2022
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Glonstow
As far as I know the most notable wars were those of the Asante, Dahomey, and Benin. Of these, Asante was probably the most successful; the plurality of Yoruba states signed protectorate status agreements, and as far as I know the Franco-Dahomean wars were relatively one-sided in terms of battle results.

Well that's the thing, I was east of those in the region generally, but I'm going to look through Ighayers map link and see if it's on there when I have time.
 
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The Chronicle of Akakor
True but at the end of the day the Afrikaners won at least by 1910 when a united independent white rulled Union of South Africa emerged until of course about 1994 when the ANC took over the country. Pretty much colonial powers could subdue the native Africans until of course post WWII weakened the Western European Colonial Powers and in the case of Portugal the Portugese had to face hostile nations such has the communist countries and even the US and Israel who decided to support the anti colonial movements especially in Angola although not necessarily for altruistic reasons.
Leftyhunter

The British colonial government allowed them to run South Africa like that, after sending those who wanted Transvaal and Orange to remain independent to concentration camps after the Second Anglo-Boer War
None of those were battles, at least one was a war crime

Depends on one's perspective, an early modern army like the Spanish conquistadors going against people who can only defend themselves using obisidian and bronze equipment like the Indigenous Americans could be considered a genocide. However, the Spanish colonization of the Americas is still considered a military conquest by most historians.

It may sounds harsh for some people, but one man's heroe can be another man's villain.
 
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The British colonial government allowed them to run South Africa like that, after sending those who wanted Transvaal and Organ to remain independent to concentration camps after the Second Anglo-Boer War


Depends on one's perspective, an early modern army like the Spanish conquistadors going against people who can only defend themselves using obisidian and bronze equipment like the Indigenous Americans could be considered a genocide. However, the Spanish colonization of the Americas is still considered a military conquest by most historians.

It may sounds harsh for some people, but one man's heroe can be another man's villain.
Not sure about the Spanish commiting genocide on indigenous people. Yes certainly if Indians were deemed an obstacle they were killed or driven off but there were substantial Indian communities when the Spanish had to cede independence to Latin America especially in Southern Mexico,Guatemala and Bolivia.
Leftyhunter
 
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Europe
Depends on one's perspective, an early modern army like the Spanish conquistadors going against people who can only defend themselves using obisidian and bronze equipment like the Indigenous Americans could be considered a genocide. However, the Spanish colonization of the Americas is still considered a military conquest by most historians.

It may sounds harsh for some people, but one man's heroe can be another man's villain.

No butchering women and childern is not the same as a battle between between people armed with obsidian vs. people armed with steel and guns.

A battle by definition has two opposing forces fighting each other.
 
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The Chronicle of Akakor
Not sure about the Spanish commiting genocide on indigenous people. Yes certainly if Indians were deemed an obstacle they were killed or driven off but there were substantial Indian communities when the Spanish had to cede independence to Latin America especially in Southern Mexico,Guatemala and Bolivia.
Leftyhunter

Don't trust me, trust the Spanish themselves who opposed colonization during that time like Bartolome de Las Casas, Alonso de Zurita or Guaman Poma de Ayala. Although yeah, there were some native nations who were allied to the Spanish like the Tlaxcaltecs or Yanaconas.
While the catholic kings of Spain approved Laws of Indies and the Laws of Burgos to protect the native population, majority of them were trapped in multi-generational poverty, often serving as cheap labor or domestic workers.
There were a lot of rebellions during the Spanish Empire existence, like Tupac Amaru rebellion or Jacinto Canek rebellion.

No butchering women and childern is not the same as a battle between between people armed with obsidian vs. people armed with steel and guns.

A battle by definition has two opposing forces fighting each other.

Hence why understanding different perspectives is important, the concept that the Zulu Empire had of warfare obviously differed from the concept of European warfare
 
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This is inaccurate, they were the only one to win a war against a European power PERMANENTLY, and the Italians had no desire to try to continue with multiple battles after Adwa.

Multiple other nations defeated European powers in war, however the Europeans would continue because the other side was not really "done" and tension was still abound.

For example Asante and Mogadishu and the later Dervish which is attached to the former, had beaten Europeans in wars. There were others as well.

Several held off European powers in stalemates or with either side not really quitting but conceding something.

This is why I don't get the belief that the Ethiopian army, while impressive, is often cited as MOST Impressive. Could the Ethiopian government handle 30-40 years of consistent wars against the Italians? What if you replaced them with the French or Britain?

On paper Menelik nor Yohannes controlled the best weapons (on paper) on the continent, the Somali, Sudan, Dahomey are just some example of states with more fire and destruction power, and then the Asante proved you didn't even need that.

The Ashanti mostly defeated European forces in very small conflicts, like 70 Ashanti gunmen going against 55 British red coats.
 
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