Joined Jun 2012
15,528 Posts | 2,868+
Malaysia
Were the Vikings actually great fighters?
- Thread starter Girgisjus
- Start date
Joined Jan 2012
1,190 Posts | 453+
South Midlands in Merlin's Isle of Gramarye
The Lindisfarne rock group - not particularly heavy in my recollection, as they were a bit folksy to my ear - was named after the island of Lindisfarne which is not far from the band's home town of Newcastle-upon-Tyne. The island is very atmospheric and the home to St Cuthbert - the patron saint of northern England. It was the site of the first ever Viking raid on the old Kingdom of Northumbria. A work colleague was a friend of Alan Hull one of the group's founders. I reckon they were at school together which in terms of the English middle class means friends for life. The group's big hit remains `The Fog on the Tyne' still much loved by the locals.
Yes, Jane Fonda was very toothsome in Barbarella. The story of the film also had resonances of `Slaughterhouse Five' by Kurt Vonnegut in it. This book was published in 1969. The dates are very close.
This is the second time this week that aspects of my past have appeared in a chat-room. Yes, I must be getting old and becoming history.
The map is inaccurate.
1) It uses "viking" with a capital "V" instead of a small "v"., and instead of saying "Scandinavian".
2) The fierce warriors who took over southern Italy and Sicily in the 11th century were Norrman scum instead of of viking scum. The Normans were descended from Scandinavian vikings who settled in Normandy and intermarried with the French, and at least partially assimilated into French culture by the time the the first Normans went to south Italy to serve as mercenaries and eventually turn on their employers and seize power.
From what I have read I think the Vikings were great fighters alright . Ferocity , mobility , and endurance .
Joined Nov 2008
2,795 Posts | 1,085+
England
You have failed to mention Alfred`s daughter, Æthelflaed, .... of the Mercians, who achieved success fighting the Danish (Viking) invaders in conjunction with her brother, King Edward.
Joined Jan 2012
1,190 Posts | 453+
South Midlands in Merlin's Isle of Gramarye
The activities of the excellent Aethelflaed, .... of the Mercians were a bit further north from here. I am close to Towcester and the West Saxon base at Passenham for that campaign is nearby. The extensive Saxon burials in that parish have created a local sub-culture of ghost stories, whilst the dedication of the church to St Guthlac, a Mercian royal saint, is also significant for us historians. Edward the Elder can be found all over the local landscape particularly in the track named The Ferdwey - the way of the fyrd - just over the hill from where I sit.
Joined Jan 2015
4,856 Posts | 2,895+
MD, USA
Sure, and so were the Carolingians who carved out an empire. So were the Saxons who crushed Norse armies several times, and fought William's Norman cavalry to a standstill for 8 hours at Hastings, and so were the Normans who fought and conquered all over Europe.
The thing is that a shipload of Vikings will be *all* raiders and warriors, they've gone a-viking because they *want* to, and are probably young and aggressive. And since they are smart enough to avoid landing near concentrations of soldiers, they people they are up against are just average blokes--local militia, farmers, wives and kids. So compared the average farmyard of screaming women, children, and chickens, sure, the Vikings were supermen! Once the local thegn shows up with his huscarls, maybe not so much.
Matthew
Joined Nov 2008
2,795 Posts | 1,085+
England
In 918 the .... of the Mercians had received envoys from the Kingdom of York offering submission, but regretfully Æthelflaed died before this could be put into effect.
Guthlac is an interesting character. In his youth he was a leader of a warband fighting and raiding into Wales, but then he "got religion" and lived out the rest of his life as what can only be described as a religious hermit in the fenlands of what is now Cambridgeshire.
2 cents
As far as I'm aware when opposing armies fought, at the time of Viking and Norman conquests, it was still very much a melee, rather than disciplined line formation fighting. That suggests that armies could have many fighters who excelled in hand to hand combat. I don't know if that's true. I don't know when fighting in disciplined line formation began after the Romans, only that it apparently ceased in 1916. (?)
In either case,weren't battles about attrition, with the side with the most fighters still standing at the end being the victor?
Trivia: Sun Tzu avoided fighting. He claimed that wars were won or lost before any fighting took place. His goal was always maximum gain for minimum loss.
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
As far as I'm aware when opposing armies fought, at the time of Viking and Norman conquests, it was still very much a melee, rather than disciplined line formation fighting. That suggests that armies could have many fighters who excelled in hand to hand combat. I don't know if that's true. I don't know when fighting in disciplined line formation began after the Romans, only that it apparently ceased in 1916. (?)
In either case,weren't battles about attrition, with the side with the most fighters still standing at the end being the victor?
Trivia: Sun Tzu avoided fighting. He claimed that wars were won or lost before any fighting took place. His goal was always maximum gain for minimum loss.
“The greatest victory is that which requires no battle.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Joined Jan 2015
4,856 Posts | 2,895+
MD, USA
Not at all. Everyone fought in lines, because losing your formation generally meant losing the battle and having much heavier casualties. The winners generally got off pretty lightly. Discipline depends heavily on the combatants, whether they are trained or motivated, but formation fighting goes back WAY before the Romans (think Sumeria, at least), and is crucial to this day. The "lines" of tanks and APCs may not look the same as a shield wall or legion or regiment of muskets, but they are very definitely formations, nonetheless.
The idea of a battle as a swirling melee may be great for the average barroom brawl, but is otherwise the invention of Hollywood.
Matthew
Joined Nov 2010
14,406 Posts | 4,143+
Cornwall
Sometimes - maybe many times - it's just about leadership. Let's look at Vouille 507. I don't think there's any reason to think that the Franks were anymore 'great fighters' man for man than the Visigoths.
But Clovis was on an empire building mission, ruthless and efficient. Very clever, using diversionary tactics through poltics - dragging Visigoth assets off to 'rebellions' in the Catalan and Ebro reason, diverting the support of Theodoric the Great with an Imperial invasion/feint on the eastern Italian coast.
Alaric II, on the other hand, was a rather careless, decadent ruler who let his army go to pot since the days of Euric and spent most of his time in fine living - despite being warned of this by Theodoric and his own nobles. Clearly also quite witless in the battle strategy.
Nothing to do with who was 'great fighters'.
But Clovis was on an empire building mission, ruthless and efficient. Very clever, using diversionary tactics through poltics - dragging Visigoth assets off to 'rebellions' in the Catalan and Ebro reason, diverting the support of Theodoric the Great with an Imperial invasion/feint on the eastern Italian coast.
Alaric II, on the other hand, was a rather careless, decadent ruler who let his army go to pot since the days of Euric and spent most of his time in fine living - despite being warned of this by Theodoric and his own nobles. Clearly also quite witless in the battle strategy.
Nothing to do with who was 'great fighters'.
Joined Nov 2008
2,795 Posts | 1,085+
England
A long time replying, I know, but you could consult "Warfare And Society In The Barbarian West, 450-900" by Guy Halsall.
The guy who made the map is Danish – they are rather big on Vikings in Denmark.
If it is the Swedes doing it, they are more likely to point out how late Iron Age society was generally multi-ethnic.
Chalk it up to national differences.
Not to turn this thread upside down, but may I pose a related question: Were there any "vikings" (as in people who actually accompanied the raiding parties) who weren't primarily fighters?
I've been thinking about this recently; most any man with a strong back and enough training to maintain rhythm could work the oars on a longship, so this job could (and afaik know was) filled by the same men who'd go off and crack skulls once they reached their target. But what about the jobs aboard a ship which require a more professional skillset, like pilots/navigators, ships carpenters, coopers, and (for those longships using sails) sail-makers? Is there any evidence that the vikings had these sorts of specialized non-combat jobs aboard their vessels?
I've been thinking about this recently; most any man with a strong back and enough training to maintain rhythm could work the oars on a longship, so this job could (and afaik know was) filled by the same men who'd go off and crack skulls once they reached their target. But what about the jobs aboard a ship which require a more professional skillset, like pilots/navigators, ships carpenters, coopers, and (for those longships using sails) sail-makers? Is there any evidence that the vikings had these sorts of specialized non-combat jobs aboard their vessels?
Interesting question. Not sure how one would go about proving any point of view on this matter.
2 Cents;
Viking ships were not large. This is because they sometimes needed to be carried over land (portage) That suggests that there were seldom many passengers on a Viking longboat. As a general principle I suspect strong and fit Viking warriors would probably have helped row the ship.
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Yes space would certainly have been an issue, and I did acknowlegde that the "fighters" would probably be the ones working the oars. But still, rowing a longship is not the only means of keeping it going. I'd imagine you'd need at least one guy aboard who had enough professional skill to maintain the vessel and fix any damage that might be encountered during its voyage. Keeping a wooden vessel in working order out in the middle of the North Sea is no simple task, it does require a certain degree of skill to, for example, mend a leak in a wooden hull in such a way that the hull remains stable and seaworthy for the duration of the voyage. A shoddy repair job could have you in serious trouble. A ship's carpenter, at least in later eras of seafaring, was primarily a workman first, and a fighter second (if at all).
The Norse do seem to have liked to tell stories (sagas, rune inscriptions, etc), and wrote things down probably more than most other "pagan" cultures in northern Europe... so perhaps somewhere out there there's some Old Norse source that mentions "Sven the carpenter" accompanying a viking raiding party?
Joined Aug 2014
10,465 Posts | 4,802+
Australia
The results of a battle depends on a lot more than that. Factors include terrain, weather, morale, fatigue, commander ability, supplies, arms, intelligence, numbers, experience, etc.
Joined Jul 2011
7,400 Posts | 945+
Australia
While there would certainly be specialist shipwrights, sail makers and navigators and the majority of the crew would be oarsmen, I think everyone would be multi-skilled to an extent and expected to fight if necessary.
Joined Jan 2015
4,856 Posts | 2,895+
MD, USA
Those are all able-bodied men, fully capable of wielding shield and spear with the rest. And they most likely were obligated by law to serve in their local militia at home. Really, the difference between a farmer or craftsman and a "warrior" is often whether or not he is armed for battle. Sure, there *were* professional fighters, but for many of these raiders it was just an aspect of the whole adventure, they took up arms to go raiding, and probably didn't remain as full-time soldiers when they got home.
Matthew
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