Joined Jun 2012
15,528 Posts | 2,868+
Malaysia
What did Genghis Khan and the Mongols think of agriculture and cities?
- Thread starter Alexander the Gay
- Start date
I think it should be based on the principle that "human life is priceless." No one will sell the life of their loved one for 100 horses. I do not think that 100 horses will console the grief of the injured party. I believe that compensation for the death of a person with money took place for an unintentional murder and a murder by negligence.
Let me tell you a story on this topic. When two unfamiliar Kazakhs meet and they find good communication with each other, they will definitely clarify who is from which clan.
So one day in South Kazakhstan, I met a man who turned out to be from the Argyn clan, a branch of the Argyn-Altai. I know that the ancestral lands of the Argyn-Altai clan are in Northern Kazakhstan, so I asked him how they ended up in Southern Kazakhstan.
He told the story of the resettlement of his distant ancestor in South Kazakhstan. In the middle of the 19th century, his ancestor was responsible for the death of one person. The relatives of his ancestor offered compensation for the death of the injured party, but they would not accept any money and demanded the life of the guilty party. Then, the guilty man's father said to his son, "We cannot protect you; they have every right to kill you. Save your life, run away and never come back here again. " So his ancestor was forced to flee and went to South Kazakhstan.
As for the question, were the Kazakhs rich enough to provide 100 horses? It is important to remember that the historical Kazakhs always lived as one big family within their clan. The whole clan is one big family. Responsibility for the misbehavior of a member of the clan was also a collective responsibility. That is, this compensation of 100 horses was paid by the entire clan of the perpetrator.
Joined Jun 2012
15,528 Posts | 2,868+
Malaysia
@Kanfari, oh dear. Only now I remember this. It was not you, but @Sundiata1, who is kind of a bit familiar with horses.
He was the one who posted those pics of him with horses on another thread. I kind of got you two guys mixed up for a while. Sorry, my bad lol ha ha.
Joined Jul 2014
2,556 Posts | 558+
world
Of course the human life is priceless but still there is price for peace. I did not mean to say that a human life is quantifiable in monetary scale.
In tibet (greater Tibet) .. a man will have to pay blood money whether it was his fault or not. It doesnt matter whether the murder was unintentional or not. That is why a strong kopa is needed. You will pay less and have less fear of retaliation. Normally the killer would move away from his hometown even if there is compromise. You might meet the dead mans brother or cousin and they will take their revenge.
The clan will share the burden of blood debt and will take vengeance if you are killed.
A man unable to pay his blood debt will runaway but his next of kin will take the consequence. The most able or competent brother will be targeted. Nowadays you goto to jail for your sins but you still have pay blood money. They will wait for you otherwise.
I think the blood feud and blood is a thing of past in kazakhstan ...please correct if I am wrong but unfortunately it is still a thing in Tibet. Even monastaries cannot stop it.
Joined Nov 2010
14,406 Posts | 4,143+
Cornwall
My knowledge on Kazakhstan is very limited. But from the travel programmes one sees, I would suggest such things are still a factor in that country!
We have always tried not to heat up the situation. always trying to make peace. The elderly have high authority in Kazakh society, young people have always listened to them. Today, our society lives according to secular laws.
I have always been interested in the exact location of the Tangut people during the time of Genghis Khan. You mentioned the Minyak clan (descendant of xixia). Do you believe they are descended from the Tanguts of the 12th century? where does this clan live today? Are there any Muslim Tibetans?
The Collection of Chronicles states the following about the Tangut country:
Google translation
Joined Jul 2014
2,556 Posts | 558+
world
Yes ..they are the true descendents of tanguts. We call them Minyaks (Tibetan name for Tanguts/xixia). After their defeat many of them migrated to Eastern Tibet where the mongols couldnt reach. Tanguts are seen as Tibetans or half Tibetans in our history.
Tanguts ruled over Gansu, Ningxia, Little parts of outer and Inner mongolia and north east Qinghai.
Yes, Tibetan muslims exist. We call them lhasa Khache (lhasa muslim). They had their own mosque and so on. They are seen as and identify as Tibetans. Their muslim culture is also little strange. They intermarry freely with the Lhasa Tibetans and non muslim spouse is not required to convert. They are mainly the descendants of Kashmiri traders but also sbalti.
There are also few Tibetan muslims in Amdo though it is hard to find them. Due to muslim missionary and wars with Huis many Tibetans were forced to become muslims and vice versa many muslims also became buddhists due to Golok invasions and later war with Huis. Kyrghiz and Kazakhs nomads all escaped to Xinjiang or got killed by Chinese Huis or became Buddhists. Many of them now identify as Tibetan or Mongol though two generation back they knew better. PRC ethnic policy wanted clean cut divisions so they made all Buddhists Tibetan/mongol and muslims Huis.
Incidently there are a few Kazakhs in Tibet. I mistook one of them as Lhasa Khache. I dont know how they reached Tibet so you have trust me on this.
Joined May 2009
1,694 Posts | 290+
The Mongols built new cities like Karakorum and Shangdu in Mongolia itself and mass deported peasant farmers into the steppe of Mongolia and into Siberia to grow crops.
The Khitan did this as well, building new cities on the steppe and deporting farmers and artisans north into Mongolia. In Yenisei both nomadism and farming were practiced by the native Kyrgyz there. The Uyghur Khaganate built cities on the steppe. The Dzungar Khanate also built the city of Ghulja and deported Turkic Muslims to grow crops for them.
The Mongols lied to the Kipchaks, saying the Kipchaks shouldn't work with the Alans because Mongols shared a [nomadic] culture with the Kipchaks [and presumably they also meant sharing Tengrism and linguistic similarities like using Khan] (but the Alans were descendants of nomads centuries before that too although they never worshipped Tengri) and then the Mongols turned on the Kipchaks after defeating the Alans. Then the Yuan emperors made the Christian Alans into their guards but not Kipchaks.
The Mongols refused to accept the defection of the nomadic Qangli Turks led by Qaracha Khass-Hajib at the Khwarezmian garrison at Otrar when they attempted to join the Mongols. The Mongols slaughtered Qaracha and the Qangli troops.
Genghis Khan welcomed mass defections by northern Han and Khitan in the Jin dynasty when they opened the gates of cities and joined his army, Khitan were Mongolic nomads like Mongols but Han were not. The Jin dynasty collapsed to the Mongols because of Han and Khitan mass defections opening the gates of cities. The Khitan royal Yelu family, the Han Shi family (Shi Bingzhi, Shi Tianze, Shi Tianlin and their sons), the Han Guo family (Guo Baoyu, Geo Dehai, Guo Kan), Zhang Rou, Liu Heima all defected to Genghis and the Shi family was awarded their own warlord fief in Hebei as a sub-fief under a Borjigin.
Northern Han and/or Khitan participated in Genghis and his sons wars against Khwarezm, the Assassins, the Abbasids and Batu Khan's campaign in the Kipchak steppe.
The Mongols also accepted the defection of the Jimi/Tusi kingdoms and fiefs in southwest China like the Dali kingdom of Yunnan and the Chiefdom of Bozhou (a Miao majority chiefdom whose ruling family claimed to be of Han descent) as well as Zhuang Tusi in Guangxi (whose ruling family also claimed to be of Han descent).
Mongols recruited native ethnic minorities from Yunnan to attack Vietnam and sack Hanoi in 1258 as well as fight against the Southern Song, a few thousand Mongol cavalry would accompany a much larger force of native Yunnan soldiers along with northern Han troops in some battles. The Mongols also ordered Central Asian Muslims they force relocated to Yunnan to attack Vietnam in 1288 and to invade Burma.
Where do you think the descendants of these Tangut people are today? The Compendium of Chronicles indicates that over time, many from the Tangut country converted to Islam. Do the current Chinese Muslims, the Dungan, have any connection with the Tanguts?
Today, all of Central Asia and Russia refer to the country of China as "Khitai". We know that this name, Khitai," came from the name of another people. I believe that perhaps the name "Tangut" also came from the name of another steppe tribe that was assimilated by these Khiya-Khiya people. I can't vouch for the authenticity of these words, but I read somewhere that Marco Polo pointed out that the Tangut people have two languages.
Joined Jul 2014
2,556 Posts | 558+
world
Tibetan tribe of Minyak are the last and legitimate remnants of Tangut. Minyak/Tangut are seen as Tibetan by other Tibetans but seen as separate but related ethnic group by academics.
Tanguts, Khitan and Han moved into Central Asia under Genghis Khan and were placed in charge of the fields and gardens of Muslims. The northern Han Daoist leader Qiu Chuji traveled through Central Asia and met with Genghis Khan in Afghanistan and Genghis appointed him leader of religious affairs across northern China, and he said Han, Khitan and Tanguts (Hexi), were put in charge of the farms and gardens of the Muslims of Samarkand and the Muslims were not allowed to manage their own fields without them.
Khitan were assimilated into ethnic Mongols in Inner Mongolia, Khitan in Cental Asia assimilated into Kazakhs, Kyrgyz and Uzbeks, and in Yunnan Khitan were settled there where they are now known as Ben people and still retain knowledge of their ancestry.
Persian speakers in Central Asia like Tajiks don't call China as Khitai, they call China as Chin.
Joined Mar 2023
482 Posts | 224+
PRC
These people inherited their ancestors' impression of the Tang Dynasty, that is, the core land of China is now North China, which they called "Chin". The South China area was still an area to be developed at that time, they called it "Machin" and regarded it as an extension of the "Chin" land.
The use of Khitai to refer to North China and Manzi to refer to South China is a later impression, that is, the spread of Mongolian geographical concepts. Mongols consider China as two countries, they regard the country ruled by Jin as Khitai, and the country ruled by Southern Song as Manzi. In other words, the country close to the grassland area is called Khitai, while the country in the far south that does not touch the grassland is called Manzi, so the Mongols called the later unified Ming Dynasty also called Khitai.
Have you ever heard of the DTM (demographic transition model)? It contains five stages, the first one is linked with nomadic hunter gatherers. This stage has a high birth, death, and infant mortality rate. This stage is the least developed out of the five stages and is the most difficult to survive in. None of the African countries are even in stage one anymore, most of them are in stages two or three. By stating that the average nomad was better off than the average farmer is a blunt lie. Firstly, if being a nomad was so great then why did we transition out of that era? Your points are not backed up by any plausible evidence and are quite improvised. another point you stated was that “nomads who settled down did so usually not to become farmers, but kings and sheit.” The first agricultural revolution occurred circa 10,000 B.C.E, once this happened, tribes were able to settle down and form permanent settlements. This allowed for more innovations to be created, and they could focus on other things beside finding food. Without the first agricultural revolution, there would be no civilization, we would still be stuck as hunter gatherers. These agricultural revolutions came to be for the betterment of society and made it much easier to survive.
Joined Feb 2015
7,536 Posts | 1,053+
Germany
Arguably steppe nomads were not hunter gatherers. Steppe nomadism/pastoralism came with the IE expansion and is not that old. Your whole point is moot.
which is ironic since some of the early Scythian bloodlines and Xiong Nu states can be traced into the Mongolian ones via family trees within the Official History commissioned by Genghis and his heirs.
I am quite skeptical of the legends and lore beyond one of the Xiong Nu warlords might have been an ancestor of Genghis.
Joined Feb 2015
7,536 Posts | 1,053+
Germany
Genghis Khan was described as tall and what not. And I am actually not aware that what he was telling, this guy Maca, is actually grounded in truth.
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