What were the causes of the Iran-Iraq War?

Kreonidus · Aug 1, 2023

Leftyhunter said:
Iraq Buys Cluster Bombs from Chile - MERIP

On Wednesday, March 14, at 4 pm, an Iraqi Airways Boeing 747 jumbo jet took off from Santiago’s Comodoro Arturo Merino Benitez Airport reportedly loaded with “thousands” of 500-pound cluster bombs. The Iraqis apparently bought the bombs from the Chilean firm Industrias Cardoen SA. Cardoen had...

merip.org

Just to muddy the waters even more at the time right wing authoritarian Chile in the 1980s sold cluster munitions to Iraq which in turn was a major client of Soviet arms as well. Chile was a major arms client of Israel at the time so the Israelis couldn't be thrilled with Iraq receiving cluster bombs. Cardoen Industries even sold a cluster bomb to Iraq that could penetrate armoured vehicles.
Pinochet did what he wanted to do and didn't care what others thought. When Greece came under criticism for exhibiting South African arms Pinochet told ARMSCOR to exhibit there arms in Chile. The US had an arms embargo on Chile so Pinochet bought jets from China. President Reagan had a war on drugs so Pinochet allowed at least one cartel to grow and proves cocaine in Chile.

Pinochet 'sold cocaine to Europe and US'

Augusto Pinochet's $26m (£14m) fortune was amassed through cocaine sales to Europe and the US, the general's former top aide for intelligence has alleged.

www.theguardian.com

Leftyhunter

I had no idea about any of this. Thank you.

Rostam · Aug 1, 2023

Dreamhunter said:
Not sure if that was indeed the real truth, or just some big spin by some anti-Iran quarters of that time?

Iranian revolution was in 1979. In 1980 they were still in massive disarray domestically. So, TBH, I don't think they had any big plans to topple any neighbour of theirs or cause any big trouble to them.

The establishment of the Islamic Republic by Khomeini includes the notable vision of Guardianship of the Islamic jurist. According to Iran's constitution, an Islamic republic is governed by Islamic jurists (Fuqaha). The concept of velayat-e faqih, also known as wilayat al-faqih, involves the transfer of both political and religious authority to the Shia clergy. This system requires all significant decisions made by the state to be approved by a supreme clerical leader, known as the vali-e faqih or guardian Islamic jurist.

Khomeini's establishment of Velayat-E Faqih ensured significant influence for himself and his successors within the Iranian political and religious system. However, they have been accused of utilizing and abusing Islam as a means to advance their political agenda.

Velayat-E Faqih in the Constitution of Iran

While many groups in the Arab world did not embrace this interpretation of Islam or the Iranian Revolution, it did mean they embraced a liberal vision of Islam or secularism. In fact, the immediate reaction to the rise of the Islamic Republic in Iran was the emergence of many extremist movements in the Arab world, such as the Islamic State, al-Qaeda, Al-Nusra Front, Ansar Bait al-Maqdis, etc. These movements tried to compete with the Iranian regime as the voice of Islam and for leadership.

Rostam · Aug 1, 2023

Kreonidus said:
I had no idea about any of this. Thank you.

Henry Kissinger “America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests”.

Prime Minister Henry Palmerstone in the British Parliament in 1848 ‘No eternal allies, no perpetual enemies’

, the full quote is as follows:

“We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow.

Rostam · Aug 1, 2023

Kreonidus said:
Well; colour me surprised! I had no idea that Christians were such a large part of Iraq's political history. We learn something new everyday

Following the fall of the Ottoman Empire, certain Christians in Levant advocated for a Pan-Arabist ideology. They were worried that the Muslim majority in Arabic-speaking countries might adopt a Pan-Islamist ideology. To promote their beliefs, they even included fabricated historical accounts in their literature, similar to what Pan-Turkists did in Turkey or what Hindu nationalists are doing in India.

Four preeminent Arab Christian nationalist thinkers: Michel Aflaq, a founding member of the Ba’ath Party and a central pan-Arabist leader; Antun Sa’adeh, a Syrian nationalist and believer in the cultural cohesion of Greater Syria; Constantine Zuraiq, another early pan-Arabist thinker; and Dr George Habash, leader of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and an important figure in Palestinian activism.

Arab Christian nationalist thinkers

SSDD · Aug 1, 2023

Great Britain is responsible for the mess Iraq became. Why is Iraq's coast line so short?

While Iraq's claim that Kuwait was part of Iraq can be debated but it made absolutely no sense that Bubiyan and other small islands became part of Kuwait which severely restricted Iraq's coast line.

I am saying this because the Iranians had unilaterally withdrawn from Shatt-El Arab treaty even though Port of Basra was Iraq's sole port was practically depended on it. It severely threatened Iraq's foreign trade. If Iraq had Bubiyan and other small islands then even closer of Basra Port would not affect Iraq much.

Rostam · Aug 1, 2023

SSDD said:
Great Britain is responsible for the mess Iraq became. Why is Iraq's coast line so short?

While Iraq's claim that Kuwait was part of Iraq can be debated but it made absolutely no sense that Bubiyan and other small islands became part of Kuwait which severely restricted Iraq's coast line.

I am saying this because the Iranians had unilaterally withdrawn from Shatt-El Arab treaty even though Port of Basra was Iraq's sole port was practically depended on it. It severely threatened Iraq's foreign trade. If Iraq had Bubiyan and other small islands then even closer of Basra Port would not affect Iraq much.

View attachment 64722

The borders in the Middle East were drawn by Britain to prevent one country from having control over the region's valuable oil resource, which is vital for the industrial world. This was done to avoid any instability in the West caused by one or two powerful countries. The plan was also to keep most of the countries in the region weak so that they would rely on Britain and later the United States for protection. As a result, countries such as Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan were created.

Rostam · Aug 1, 2023

Rostam said:
The establishment of the Islamic Republic by Khomeini includes the notable vision of Guardianship of the Islamic jurist. According to Iran's constitution, an Islamic republic is governed by Islamic jurists (Fuqaha). The concept of velayat-e faqih, also known as wilayat al-faqih, involves the transfer of both political and religious authority to the Shia clergy. This system requires all significant decisions made by the state to be approved by a supreme clerical leader, known as the vali-e faqih or guardian Islamic jurist.

Khomeini's establishment of Velayat-E Faqih ensured significant influence for himself and his successors within the Iranian political and religious system. However, they have been accused of utilizing and abusing Islam as a means to advance their political agenda.

Velayat-E Faqih in the Constitution of Iran

While many groups in the Arab world did not embrace this interpretation of Islam or the Iranian Revolution, it did NOT mean they embraced a liberal vision of Islam or secularism. In fact, the immediate reaction to the rise of the Islamic Republic in Iran was the emergence of many extremist movements in the Arab world, such as the Islamic State, al-Qaeda, Al-Nusra Front, Ansar Bait al-Maqdis, etc. These movements tried to compete with the Iranian regime as the voice of Islam and for leadership.

Fixed

Dreamhunter · Aug 1, 2023

Rostam said:
The borders in the Middle East were drawn by Britain to prevent one country from having control over the region's valuable oil resource, which is vital for the industrial world. This was done to avoid any instability in the West caused by one or two powerful countries.

Rostam said:
The plan was also to keep most of the countries in the region weak so that they would rely on Britain and later the United States for protection.

Rostam said:
As a result, countries such as Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan were created.

Created out of what previous country?

As for Saudi Arabia, I thought that the provinces that were merged to form SA had never been conquered by anybody in relatively recent times.

Rostam · Aug 1, 2023

Dreamhunter said:
Created out of what previous country?

When we look at the maps below, it becomes clear that before 1871, the Ottoman Empire controlled large areas of the Arab-speaking world, including the Levant, Mesopotamia, Egypt, and parts of the Arabian Peninsula. However, this changed when the British Empire, the dominant European power at the time, arrived and began to conquer these territories. The maps show how this conquest affected the borders before and after World War I, when the Ottoman Empire ended in Turkey.

Map of the middle east in 1871

Source: MAP 1871

Map of the Middle East in 1914 ( right before WWI and the Sykes–Picot Agreement ).

Map of the Levant and Mesopotamia after the Sykes-Picot Agreement.

The Arab world has struggled with insufficient geographical defenses for a long time, leaving them open to conquest by more powerful empires such as the Roman, Byzantium, Ottoman, Sassanid, Parthia, and Seljuk. This vulnerability is particularly evident in areas like Mesopotamia, the Levant, and some parts of the Arabian Peninsula.

Unlike countries like China, India, Iran, Britain, France, and Spain, which have a strong continuity of history, many of the Arabic-speaking regions lack stability and are susceptible to sudden changes.

Several of these countries were previously part of the Ottoman Empire as a Velayt, but their borders were often different. The British drew the borders based on their vision and geopolitical needs.

Rostam · Aug 1, 2023

Dreamhunter said:
As for Saudi Arabia, I thought that the provinces that were merged to form SA had never been conquered by anybody in relatively recent times.

The Hejaz Region, consisting of Mecca and Medina, was formerly under Ottoman rule. To connect this area with the rest of their empire, a railway network was established. Although much of the Arabian Peninsula was once viewed as inhospitable and of little strategic value, the discovery of oil has transformed this perception, rendering these countries and regions important in the present day. This shift in perspective was especially significant for the British and later the Americans.

Rostam · Aug 1, 2023

SSDD said:
Great Britain is responsible for the mess Iraq became. Why is Iraq's coast line so short?

While Iraq's claim that Kuwait was part of Iraq can be debated but it made absolutely no sense that Bubiyan and other small islands became part of Kuwait which severely restricted Iraq's coast line.

I am saying this because the Iranians had unilaterally withdrawn from Shatt-El Arab treaty even though Port of Basra was Iraq's sole port was practically depended on it. It severely threatened Iraq's foreign trade. If Iraq had Bubiyan and other small islands then even closer of Basra Port would not affect Iraq much.

View attachment 64722

It's common for people to blame others for their own shortcomings. However, although the British acted in their self-interest, it would be inaccurate to solely hold them responsible for everything.

In my view, local players should take greater responsibility for the current issues. Various factors such as sectarian differences, religious superstitions and intolerance, and corrupt clerical and political players are among the many things that the local players must be accountable for.

JoanOfArc007 · Aug 1, 2023

Rostam said:
When we look at the maps below, it becomes clear that before 1871, the Ottoman Empire controlled large areas of the Arab-speaking world, including the Levant, Mesopotamia, Egypt, and parts of the Arabian Peninsula. However, this changed when the British Empire, the dominant European power at the time, arrived and began to conquer these territories. The maps show how this conquest affected the borders before and after World War I, when the Ottoman Empire ended in Turkey.

Map of the middle east in 1871

Source: MAP 1871

Map of the Middle East in 1914 ( right before WWI and the Sykes–Picot Agreement ).

Map of the Levant and Mesopotamia after the Sykes-Picot Agreement.

The Arab world has struggled with insufficient geographical defenses for a long time, leaving them open to conquest by more powerful empires such as the Roman, Byzantium, Ottoman, Sassanid, Parthia, and Seljuk. This vulnerability is particularly evident in areas like Mesopotamia, the Levant, and some parts of the Arabian Peninsula.

Unlike countries like China, India, Iran, Britain, France, and Spain, which have a strong continuity of history, many of the Arabic-speaking regions lack stability and are susceptible to sudden changes.

Several of these countries were previously part of the Ottoman Empire as a Velayt, but their borders were often different. The British drew the borders based on their vision and geopolitical needs.

You are very knowledgeable about these topics far more so compared to myself.

When one looks at what is known as Arab nationalism in the 20th century would you say that as the 20th century progressed specifically by the late 1990s that arab nationalism was all but dead?

Is it safe to say that Jordanian Arab intellectuals opposed the rise of the Islamic Republic of Iran along with supporting Iraq and his military affairs, whether it be against Iran, or subsequently against Kuwait? I saw a video of about 20 or 30 Jordanian professors, protesting in the streets of Amman from maybe 1990 or 1991 …about their support of Iraq against Kuwait.

Of The entire Arab world, including north Africa and the Middle East what percentage of Arabs do you think supported Iraq during the Iraq Kuwait war? Which saw Iraq take over Kuwait in a matter of weeks.

How popular do you think Saddam Hussein was in Iraq in the 1980s and 1990s?

Is Saddam Hussein viewed as a hero in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank for his support of Palestinian causes? to that point do you think that the Iraqi Arabs truly cared about Palestinian causes?

Rostam · Aug 2, 2023

JoanOfArc007 said:
You are very knowledgeable about these topics far more so compared to myself.

When one looks at what is known as Arab nationalism in the 20th century would you say that as the 20th century progressed specifically by the late 1990s that arab nationalism was all but dead?

Is it safe to say that Jordanian Arab intellectuals opposed the rise of the Islamic Republic of Iran along with supporting Iraq and his military affairs, whether it be against Iran, or subsequently against Kuwait? I saw a video of about 20 or 30 Jordanian professors, protesting in the streets of Amman from maybe 1990 or 1991 …about their support of Iraq against Kuwait.

Of The entire Arab world, including north Africa and the Middle East what percentage of Arabs do you think supported Iraq during the Iraq Kuwait war? Which saw Iraq take over Kuwait in a matter of weeks.

How popular do you think Saddam Hussein was in Iraq in the 1980s and 1990s?

Is Saddam Hussein viewed as a hero in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank for his support of Palestinian causes? to that point do you think that the Iraqi Arabs truly cared about Palestinian causes?

Thank you for your comment, however, I don't consider myself an expert on the region. While I have read a few books on the topic, I acknowledge that there are many members, including yourself, who are likely more knowledgeable about various aspects of the region than I am.

I need some time to carefully consider your thought-provoking questions and provide responses. Regarding the Arab world, it is currently divided to a great extent, to the point where describing it as a cohesive entity beyond familial, tribal, or sectarian boundaries may not be entirely accurate.

Leftyhunter · Aug 3, 2023

Rostam said:
The establishment of the Islamic Republic by Khomeini includes the notable vision of Guardianship of the Islamic jurist. According to Iran's constitution, an Islamic republic is governed by Islamic jurists (Fuqaha). The concept of velayat-e faqih, also known as wilayat al-faqih, involves the transfer of both political and religious authority to the Shia clergy. This system requires all significant decisions made by the state to be approved by a supreme clerical leader, known as the vali-e faqih or guardian Islamic jurist.

Khomeini's establishment of Velayat-E Faqih ensured significant influence for himself and his successors within the Iranian political and religious system. However, they have been accused of utilizing and abusing Islam as a means to advance their political agenda.

Velayat-E Faqih in the Constitution of Iran

While many groups in the Arab world did not embrace this interpretation of Islam or the Iranian Revolution, it did mean they embraced a liberal vision of Islam or secularism. In fact, the immediate reaction to the rise of the Islamic Republic in Iran was the emergence of many extremist movements in the Arab world, such as the Islamic State, al-Qaeda, Al-Nusra Front, Ansar Bait al-Maqdis, etc. These movements tried to compete with the Iranian regime as the voice of Islam and for leadership.

Weren't late 20th Century movements such has Al Quieda
in the mid 1990s emerge not as a rival to Shia Islam but out of a frustration with Bin Laden over the Saudi government not taking up his offer to recruit Arab volunteers and or volunteers from the Islamic world vs the Saudi government allowed Infidel troops to besmirch the holy soil of the Prophet?
Leftyhunter

Leftyhunter · Aug 3, 2023

JoanOfArc007 said:
You are very knowledgeable about these topics far more so compared to myself.

When one looks at what is known as Arab nationalism in the 20th century would you say that as the 20th century progressed specifically by the late 1990s that arab nationalism was all but dead?

Is it safe to say that Jordanian Arab intellectuals opposed the rise of the Islamic Republic of Iran along with supporting Iraq and his military affairs, whether it be against Iran, or subsequently against Kuwait? I saw a video of about 20 or 30 Jordanian professors, protesting in the streets of Amman from maybe 1990 or 1991 …about their support of Iraq against Kuwait.

Of The entire Arab world, including north Africa and the Middle East what percentage of Arabs do you think supported Iraq during the Iraq Kuwait war? Which saw Iraq take over Kuwait in a matter of weeks.

How popular do you think Saddam Hussein was in Iraq in the 1980s and 1990s?

Is Saddam Hussein viewed as a hero in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank for his support of Palestinian causes? to that point do you think that the Iraqi Arabs truly cared about Palestinian causes?

Since when did Arab public opinion matter? In the 20th Century there is no such thing as free and fair elections in the Arabic speaking world other then ironically Israel.
If Iraqi Arabs favored the Palestinians cause there wasn't much they could do for the Palestinians other then to contribute money towards various Palestinian charities.
If Arabs in other countries where in favor of the invasion of Kuwait did it really affect the course of the 1st Gulf War?
Leftyhunter

JoanOfArc007 · Aug 3, 2023

Leftyhunter said:
Since when did Arab public opinion matter? In the 20th Century there is no such thing as free and fair elections in the Arabic speaking world other then ironically Israel.
If Iraqi Arabs favored the Palestinians cause there wasn't much they could do for the Palestinians other then to contribute money towards various Palestinian charities.
If Arabs in other countries where in favor of the invasion of Kuwait did it really affect the course of the 1st Gulf War?
Leftyhunter

There were Arab volunteers, who fought for Iraq in the second gulf war. Not sure about the first gulf war or the iraq Kuwait war.

Not sure about your point on elections or democracy in the Middle East..its a complicated subject.

Leftyhunter · Aug 3, 2023

JoanOfArc007 said:
There were Arab volunteers, who fought for Iraq in the second gulf war. Not sure about the first gulf war or the iraq Kuwait war.

Not sure about your point on elections or democracy in the Middle East..its a complicated subject.

It's not a complicated subject. Either a region or a country has democracy or it doesn't. If it doesn't then public opinion is irrelevant . Yes there were some volunteers in Iraq mostly Palestinian but they didn't make much difference. The allies had complete air superiority and no matter what the level of skill and bravery the Palestinian volunteers with just rifles and no cover to hide can only do so much. The allies had no problems with urban warfare as the Iraqi Army either ran or surrendered.
In the Iran Iraq War the air war was somewhat balanced as no side could gain absolute air superiority.
Leftyhunter

Leftyhunter · Aug 3, 2023

Kreonidus said:
Greetings to all. Please forgive my ignorance but I was never able to understand the causes of this conflict. Any information, insight and discussion would be sincerely appreciated.

Thank you all for your time.

Showtime 112 has a lot of videos well researched about the air war between Iran and Iraq. The Iraqis had the advantage in that they could buy advanced Soviet and even better French aircraft. The Iranians had American made jets left over from the Shah' s regime but they obviously couldn't buy more so they depended on the Israelis to get spare parts and AA missiles to keep their air fleet operational.
Not aware of any country selling military aircraft to Iran during the war.
Leftyhunter

Leftyhunter · Aug 3, 2023

Kreonidus said:
Greetings to all. Please forgive my ignorance but I was never able to understand the causes of this conflict. Any information, insight and discussion would be sincerely appreciated.

Thank you all for your time.

Chinese Arms Exports to Iran

It looks like I was wrong as per this source China exported one hundred fighter aircraft to Iran during the Iran - Iraq War plus anti ship cruise missiles as well as armoured vehicles. Post war in the 1990s China helped Iran develop its own indigenous arms production which initially started in under the Shah in the mid 1970s with cooperation from Israel.
Leftyhunter

Girgisjus · Aug 3, 2023

I think this vid does a good job of explaining it.

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What were the causes of the Iran-Iraq War?

Kreonidus

Iraq Buys Cluster Bombs from Chile - MERIP

Pinochet 'sold cocaine to Europe and US'

Rostam

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SSDD

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Dreamhunter

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JoanOfArc007

Rostam

Leftyhunter

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JoanOfArc007

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