When did Communist China surpass WWII Imperial Japan in quality/performance of various combat arms: infantry, armor, arty, air, navy, etc.?

raharris1973 said:

On winning their Civil War against the Nationalists in 1949, Chinese Communist gear was certainly heterogeneous, and a lot of it was formerly Japanese. "The best of it"? Likely not, they had captured tons and tons of post-war American-exported weapons from the Nationalists by the end of the war, even if not the very newest models, and still basically WWII and 1930s tech.

The Chinese *started* their Korean War intervention with heterogeneous gear, still some American, probably still some Japanese, and increased numbers of Soviet WWII remainders and post-war experts. But by a year or 18 months max after beginning participation in the Korean War fighting the Chinese forces in theater, and active-duty formations at home, were standardized with Soviet kit.

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raharris1973 said:

None of its armor may have deployed to Korea, artillery certainly did. Artillery had played a prominent role in decisive Chinese Civil War battles, so there was experience there.

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raharris1973 said:

When did Communist China surpass WWII Imperial Japan in quality/performance of various combat arms: infantry forces, cavalry FWIW, artillery forces, armor, fighter aircraft, air defenses, bomber aircraft, naval combatants, etc.?

The Chinese Communist forces impressively showed an ability to engage in a slugfest, toe-to-toe with US and allied forces in Korea, a mere 6-9 years after the end of the Pacific War, in an infantry and artillery dominated war, but not one that gave much scope for big armored action on their side, and in which they used their aircraft defensively and conservatively, although, as jet fighters, they had technical capabilities superior to anything the Japanese or Americans fielded in the Pacific War.

But would the Chinese Communist military of that Korean War era, or even a decade later, have had the air support, including air-to-ground attack skills and and conventional forces logistic support and tactical acumen to imitate the bold long-distance offensive strides the Japanese made in 1941-1942 through Thailand, Malaya-Singapore and Burma? In the Korean War era itself they obviously only had a minimum number of submarines and inherited and imported surface naval combats and scarcely a naval tradition, so I can't imagine them having capabilities at that time to pull off invasions of the Philippines or Indonesia. Chinese/PRC AirPower, and to at least some extent, its naval inventory, may have been substantially upgraded by the end of the 1950s or through the 1960s, though we know they waited until the 21st century to even have any aircraft carriers.

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raharris1973 said:

When did Communist China surpass WWII Imperial Japan in quality/performance of various combat arms: infantry forces, cavalry FWIW, artillery forces, armor, fighter aircraft, air defenses, bomber aircraft, naval combatants, etc.?

The Chinese Communist forces impressively showed an ability to engage in a slugfest, toe-to-toe with US and allied forces in Korea, a mere 6-9 years after the end of the Pacific War, in an infantry and artillery dominated war, but not one that gave much scope for big armored action on their side, and in which they used their aircraft defensively and conservatively, although, as jet fighters, they had technical capabilities superior to anything the Japanese or Americans fielded in the Pacific War.

But would the Chinese Communist military of that Korean War era, or even a decade later, have had the air support, including air-to-ground attack skills and and conventional forces logistic support and tactical acumen to imitate the bold long-distance offensive strides the Japanese made in 1941-1942 through Thailand, Malaya-Singapore and Burma? In the Korean War era itself they obviously only had a minimum number of submarines and inherited and imported surface naval combats and scarcely a naval tradition, so I can't imagine them having capabilities at that time to pull off invasions of the Philippines or Indonesia. Chinese/PRC AirPower, and to at least some extent, its naval inventory, may have been substantially upgraded by the end of the 1950s or through the 1960s, though we know they waited until the 21st century to even have any aircraft carriers.

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raharris1973 said:

When did Communist China surpass WWII Imperial Japan in quality/performance of various combat arms: infantry forces, cavalry FWIW, artillery forces, armor, fighter aircraft, air defenses, bomber aircraft, naval combatants, etc.?

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raharris1973 said:

The Chinese Communist forces impressively showed an ability to engage in a slugfest, toe-to-toe with US and allied forces in Korea, a mere 6-9 years after the end of the Pacific War, in an infantry and artillery dominated war, but not one that gave much scope for big armored action on their side, and in which they used their aircraft defensively and conservatively, although, as jet fighters, they had technical capabilities superior to anything the Japanese or Americans fielded in the Pacific War.

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Yury said:

My guess is never.

All China did in the Korean War was throw a lot of bodies into the meat grinder. I could tip the balance back then but in modern warfare technology and organization meant much more than bodies did, which was proven by Meadle East wars. Also China, unlike Japan, never developed a high military culture being conquered multiple times by the northern nomads, defeated by European powers, and almost conquered by Japan without much effort.

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Leftyhunter said:

We can only know how what the PLA could do not what maybe they could do. The PLA in 1962 against India and in 1979 against Vietnam could operating from their own borders sieze a fairly small amount of land from at the time weaker opponents.
We have no idea how well the Chinese Navy could of preformed. They didn't need to utilize their naval assets against India or Vietnam.
Leftyhunter

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macaquerie said:

This is just pure cope, if the Chinese forces in Korea were so inept, then why couldn't the far better armed and equipped UN forces push them out of Korea? And contrary to stereotype, if you tally up all the forces provided by the various coalition armies, the UN forces actually boasted a numerical advantage over the communists. The reason that the Chinese *seemed* so numerous was because their doctrine emphasized getting close to the enemy, using infiltration tactics and night time maneuvers, which was *not* some kind of suicidal human wave strategy but rather a way to neutralize the superior air power and artillery of the UN forces and bring the battle into close quarters where their firepower deficit didn't matter as much. Contrast this with the Japanese in WW2, who *did* have a doctrine of suicidal frontal charges and often employed them even when there were plenty of artillery shells to spare, which was reinforced with an almost fetishistic obsession with death that drove commanders to order banzai charges even when it was tactically imprudent.

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Yury said:

My guess is never.

All China did in the Korean War was throw a lot of bodies into the meat grinder. I could tip the balance back then but in modern warfare technology and organization meant much more than bodies did, which was proven by Meadle East wars. Also China, unlike Japan, never developed a high military culture being conquered multiple times by the northern nomads, defeated by European powers, and almost conquered by Japan without much effort.

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Leftyhunter said:

Yes but has former US Army Ranger and Colonel David Hackworth pointed out in his autobiography by late in the war Chinese infantry improved their infantry tactics to the point where they were roughly on par with American infantry.
To be fair to the PLA they simply lacked adequate logistics and didn't possess heave artillery and armor vs the UN forces did. The three communist airforces ( North Korean , Chinese and Soviet) didn't fly south of the 38th parallel during at least the last two thirds or half of the war. The Chinese Navy in the early 1950s at best was a lightly armed coastal defense force vs the UN navies that could and did provide fire support of the coasts of North and South Korea including air support.
A Filipino coworker who fought in Korea with the Filipino Army said " the Chinese troops were the best because they weren't afraid to die".
Leftyhunter

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Yury said:

The topic is "When did Communist China surpass WWII Imperial Japan in quality/performance of various combat arms: infantry, armor, arty, air, navy, etc.?" Of course, at the time of the Korean War Chinese were far behind on all those but my point was that they actually never got ahead, despite building a lot of ships, tanks, and artillery.

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macaquerie said:

This is just pure cope, if the Chinese forces in Korea were so inept, then why couldn't the far better armed and equipped UN forces push them out of Korea? And contrary to stereotype, if you tally up all the forces provided by the various coalition armies, the UN forces actually boasted a numerical advantage over the communists. The reason that the Chinese *seemed* so numerous was because their doctrine emphasized getting close to the enemy, using infiltration tactics and night time maneuvers, which was *not* some kind of suicidal human wave strategy but rather a way to neutralize the superior air power and artillery of the UN forces and bring the battle into close quarters where their firepower deficit didn't matter as much. Contrast this with the Japanese in WW2, who *did* have a doctrine of suicidal frontal charges and often employed them even when there were plenty of artillery shells to spare, which was reinforced with an almost fetishistic obsession with death that drove commanders to order banzai charges even when it was tactically imprudent.

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