When did Japan become a cultural power?

Joined Apr 2010
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Speaking of anime and Disney, I am reminded of the unusual similarities (plagiarism?) between Tezuka's Kimba the White Lion (1950) and Disney's Lion King (1994).

Plagiarism? Never.

b177c7896e332b1a63eb2f90834968796ef46a9f_00.jpg
 
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Momotaro may have been the one of the earliest Japanese animations (although there are other forms of animation that predate it) but it was not the primary influence on later developments. The anime of the 1960s was very much a result of Tezaku's work.

Not to mention that the producer of Momotaro was himself influenced by Fantasia.

Naomasa is right. Momotaro's influence on anime is minimal, the only significant thing about it is that it's Japanese and it's animated. I'd argue that the efforts of Toei Animation in the 50s are way more significant. But...

Osamu Tezuka, known as "the Godfather of Manga", which should give you an idea of his influence*, is the person who truly "made" the anime industry in a way, when he founded the studio Mushi Production to adapt his immensely popular Tetsuwan Atom series (localized as Astro Boy). From there, the studio animated many of Tezuka's more popular manga series, and adapted other popular manga (Ashita no Joe). Mushi then closed down due to financial issues and was replaced by a new studio, Tezuka Productions, with some ex-staff going on to found studios like Madhouse in the early 70s. But anime didn't really take off outside Japan before Katsuhiro Otomo's 1988 film Akira hit the big screen. In addition to the popularity of VHS which led to the creation of companies like AnimeEigo, and later on in the 90s a largely hobbyist translation scene sprang up, and anime finally went mainstream (and consequently, Japan a "cultural power") in the same decade with the broadcasting of Cowboy Bebop, Dragon Ball Z and similar anime on American (and European in the 80s) TV.

(the history of manga and its influences is also incredibly interesting but outside the scope of this post!)

* A great indication of Tezuka's lasting influence and popularity even to the current day is Naoki Urasawa's excellent re-imagining of Astro Boy, Pluto (2006-2009), and the 2019 adaptation of Dororo, a 60s Tezuka manga.
 
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Dragon Ball and Saint Seiya has been big in South America, Europe, and East Asia way before it became popular in the Anglo-Saxon world in the late 90s. In China, these two were THE manga that most boys read as kids (along with Doraemon). I believe they were more influential than Akira. Pokemon is what kicked off anime in America; but anime was already a worldwide phenomenon by the late 80s, just not in the English speaking world. Japanese manga was certainly far more influential worldwide than American comics by the 1980s.
 
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Dragon Ball and Saint Seiya has been big in South America, Europe, and East Asia way before it became popular in the Anglo-Saxon world in the late 90s. In China, these two were THE manga that most boys read as kids. Pokemon is what kicked off anime in America; but anime was already a worldwide phenomenon by the late 80s, just not in the English speaking world. I believe they were more influential than Akira. Japanese manga was certainly far more influential worldwide than American comics by the 1980s.
Exactly. In 80s France for instance, Space Adventure Cobra, City Hunter, and Hokuto no Ken were all dubbed and broadcast on TV way before anime's popularity in English-speaking countries.
 
Joined Jul 2020
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Naomasa is right. Momotaro's influence on anime is minimal, the only significant thing about it is that it's Japanese and it's animated. I'd argue that the efforts of Toei Animation in the 50s are way more significant. But...

Osamu Tezuka, known as "the Godfather of Manga", which should give you an idea of his influence*, is the person who truly "made" the anime industry in a way, when he founded the studio Mushi Production to adapt his immensely popular Tetsuwan Atom series (localized as Astro Boy). From there, the studio animated many of Tezuka's more popular manga series, and adapted other popular manga (Ashita no Joe). Mushi then closed down due to financial issues and was replaced by a new studio, Tezuka Productions, with some ex-staff going on to found studios like Madhouse in the early 70s. But anime didn't really take off outside Japan before Katsuhiro Otomo's 1988 film Akira hit the big screen. In addition to the popularity of VHS which led to the creation of companies like AnimeEigo, and later on in the 90s a largely hobbyist translation scene sprang up, and anime finally went mainstream (and consequently, Japan a "cultural power") in the same decade with the broadcasting of Cowboy Bebop, Dragon Ball Z and similar anime on American (and European in the 80s) TV.

(the history of manga and its influences is also incredibly interesting but outside the scope of this post!)

* A great indication of Tezuka's lasting influence and popularity even to the current day is Naoki Urasawa's excellent re-imagining of Astro Boy, Pluto (2006-2009), and the 2019 adaptation of Dororo, a 60s Tezuka manga.
We could debate this forever all I know was in Japanese animation there was nothing in the 1940s close to the style of Momotaro unless someone can prove me wrong. I will just bow out of this debate and state see Momotaro for your selves on YouTube and make your own conclusions.
Leftyhunter
 
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We could debate this forever all I know was in Japanese animation there was nothing in the 1940s close to the style of Momotaro unless someone can prove me wrong. I will just bow out of this debate and state see Momotaro for your selves on YouTube and make your own conclusions.
Leftyhunter
In fact, I have already seen Momotaro's Sea Eagles about a year ago, and watched some of Divine Sea Warriors (if that's the name?) and you're right, there is nothing like it, and it is visibly influenced by Disney, although I think that it being basically a Imperial propaganda film rather than an "artistic endeavour" limited its influence on anime as we know it. But if you want to go all the way back to the origin of Japanese animation, here you go! From 1917.
 
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Joined Apr 2010
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But anime didn't really take off outside Japan before Katsuhiro Otomo's 1988 film Akira hit the big screen

Caveat - it didn't take off in the west until Akira. It was already popular in South-East Asia and the Middle East by that time.
 
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Joined Mar 2019
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Caveat - it didn't take off in the west until Akira. It was already popular in South-East Asia and the Middle East by that time.

Australia always had a steady stream of Japanese anime care of a near bankrupt TV station in the 60s. Bought everything going for a song and got a bunch of then kids hooked lol. Even Shintaro and Phantom agents were a big hit in the day.
 
Joined Apr 2010
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We could debate this forever all I know was in Japanese animation there was nothing in the 1940s close to the style of Momotaro unless someone can prove me wrong. I will just bow out of this debate and state see Momotaro for your selves on YouTube and make your own conclusions.
Leftyhunter

The question is not whether there was anything in that style, but whether it was a major influence, and there is documentary evidence that it was not. Just because something was first, doesn't mean that it influenced everything that came after it.
 
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Exactly. In 80s France for instance, Space Adventure Cobra, City Hunter, and Hokuto no Ken were all dubbed and broadcast on TV way before anime's popularity in English-speaking countries.

None of those were as good as the manga, unfortunately.
 
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The question is not whether there was anything in that style, but whether it was a major influence, and there is documentary evidence that it was not. Just because something was first, doesn't mean that it influenced everything that came after it.
The film critic for the LA Times argued differently but we are all entitled to our own opinions. I would just say folks should go to Costco get some reasonably priced Susi ,a good Japanese lagger like Sapparo and just enjoy Moramoto and see it for themselves. Is there good Japanese Whiskey to go along with the Susi ? Yes yes there is!
Leftyhunter
 
Joined Jul 2020
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Culver City , Ca
In fact, I have already seen Momotaro's Sea Eagles about a year ago, and watched some of Divine Sea Warriors (if that's the name?) and you're right, there is nothing like it, and it is visibly influenced by Disney, although I think that it being basically a Imperial propaganda film rather than an "artistic endeavour" limited its influence on anime as we know it. But if you want to go all the way back to the origin of Japanese animation, here you go! From 1917.

No doubt Moramoto was a prpaganda cartoon then again Popeye and Bugs Bunny among others were too still there's a a definite difference in style.
Leftyhunter
 
Joined Apr 2010
50,502 Posts | 11,794+
Awesome
The film critic for the LA Times argued differently but we are all entitled to our own opinions. I would just say folks should go to Costco get some reasonably priced Susi ,a good Japanese lagger like Sapparo and just enjoy Moramoto and see it for themselves. Is there good Japanese Whiskey to go along with the Susi ? Yes yes there is!
Leftyhunter

I suggest you read a bit more about Osamu Tezaku and his influence on the manga industry.
 
Joined Jun 2017
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Long after WW2, possibly only beyond the 1991 limit as the internet which allowed them to distibitute this culture to the west was in it's infancy when the timeline of this forum ends.

But yeah the US is the cultural superpower and the Japanese are the only country to influence it culturally instead of just vice e versa(italians with pizza would probably be the next closest thing since pizza is the most consumed food in our country but that pizza is distinctive to the US and was perfected by Italian Americans not Italians from Italy). If I'm missing any country's huge influence on the US maybe I'm wrong(UK giving us the language I guess if you consider it cultural) but it would seem mainly to be confined to the descendants of those specific immigrant communities.

Aside from colonial and military occupation relationships and perhaps vice e versa to an extent was it really possible for countries to become a "cultural power" before the internet or least TV? Most cultural powers you could think of earlier that power would be a consequence of controlling a ton of territory(usually in the classical age, UK would be big exception). Exception would be Athens I guess? But then again that was mostly dictated by people not living at the time Athens existed.
 
Joined Nov 2013
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Long after WW2, possibly only beyond the 1991 limit as the internet which allowed them to distibitute this culture to the west was in it's infancy when the timeline of this forum ends.

But yeah the US is the cultural superpower and the Japanese are the only country to influence it culturally instead of just vice e versa(italians with pizza would probably be the next closest thing since pizza is the most consumed food in our country but that pizza is distinctive to the US and was perfected by Italian Americans not Italians from Italy). If I'm missing any country's huge influence on the US maybe I'm wrong(UK giving us the language I guess if you consider it cultural) but it would seem mainly to be confined to the descendants of those specific immigrant communities.

Aside from colonial and military occupation relationships and perhaps vice e versa to an extent was it really possible for countries to become a "cultural power" before the internet or least TV? Most cultural powers you could think of earlier that power would be a consequence of controlling a ton of territory(usually in the classical age, UK would be big exception). Exception would be Athens I guess? But then again that was mostly dictated by people not living at the time Athens existed.

China

There are others (Persians, Greeks, Arabs) but I China seems to have been a culturall powerful country..........

But that is a good question. What is a cultural power?
 

VHS

Joined Dec 2015
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As far as the mind can reach
I would say that the reigns of Nobunaga and Hideyoshi had attempts to spread Japanese influence to Mainland China and Korea. Although for the most part I think it was also an attempt to compete with great nations like Ming, Joseon, and the Europeans. They were adapting more than they were exporting their cultural influences I would say. Not sure about Japan a thousand years ago or more. I guess that was largely their mutual influence with the Korean states.

Japanese archipelago is not exactly "prime estate" as far as resources and arable lands
went.
It is prone to natural disasters such as typhoons, earthquakes and volcanic eruption.
Some may explain why Oda Nobunaga and Toyotomi Hideyoshi might want to expand
beyond the Japanese archipelago.
The background of the Battle of Baekjang was the near demise of Baekje drove Yamato
Japan to aid Baekje; rather, it resulted in the demise of Baekje and unification of Southern
Korea under Silla.
Instead of invasion, Yamato Japan's actions were probably defensive, and it strengthened
its forces right after the victories of Tang and Silla.

Lord Oda Obunaga said:
These video games are overly simplified in terms of representing warfare and mobilization of armies, even administering a state. I wish it was as easy as clicking buttons and making armies pop out. But I actually did not play that much Nobunaga's Ambition or Romance of Three Kingdoms, save for very briefly on an old Super Nintendo emulator. I have been meaning to get a more recent Nobunaga's Ambition game but I just never got around to it. Other than that I played a lot of Shogun 2 on my PC and Samurai Warriors on the Play Station and Wii. That is actually why I started using the "Lord Oda Nobunaga" username, because of the Samurai Warriors games.

Have you ever heard the series of Dynasty Warriors?
Characters from the Three Kingdoms era are involved; then, keep in mind that
Romance of Three Kingdoms features many out of period weapons.
It sounds interesting to play action games on Wii.

[Quote = "Lord Oda Nobunaga"]

It is interesting that despite the current Japanese cultural power, Japan was regarded as a backward country. Way back between 1900 to 1950 the Japanese economy was geared towards domestic consumption and exports of cheap goods. While Japan is still a largely domestic economy, they have moved away from shipping cheap goods. In essence Japan was the "China" of its day back then. During the 1970s and 1990s this shifted towards Taiwan being the exporter of cheap stuff. After about 1995 China took up that role, and it might not give it up any time soon. Although Vietnam, Indonesia, India etc may attempt to compete in that market. But the Japanese cultural power was by no means secure, and it has largely found an audience with the already developed countries of the West. China also depends on the developed markets, it isn't surprising that these economies exist if they have a stable market for their goods.

[/Quote]

Can we explain why the influence of the latest animes and Doramas wane?
I witness fewer products of Japanese brands in comparison with my childhood,
what do you think?
Lately, I purchased a Japanese petty knife for cutting meat; I own a Santoku knife
(Henckels International, made in Japan) as well, and my family members prefer the
old Icel knife over it. The Portuguese members here will know what Icel knives are.
 
Joined Jun 2014
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Lisbon, Portugal
As far as I know, Akira only really became famous in the English-speaking World, and that was the anime that really "took off" in that market.
By the time Akira was released in the big screen, anime was already a popular genre in Taiwan, Southeast Asia, the Middle East and South America. It already had moderate popularity in France, Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain by the mid 80s.
Actually, very few people in Portugal know or did watch Akira, and I don't see that anime being that much remembered or talked about like Saint Seya, Hokuto no ken and Studio Ghibli classics are among very old-school anime fans.

Curiously enough, in mainland China anime didn't reach considerably popularity until the late 90s or so.
 

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