Which civilization was the world's most advanced in antiquity?

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Joined Aug 2015
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For one thing, China does have stone, they made stone bridges like the Anji stone bridge built in medieval times the Chinese always boast about. To claim there is no stone to build with China is refuted by the facts. Lime stone is used for building with, by the way. The Chinese did build bridges and other structures out of stone, just not during the Han dynasty.
Which is why the claim was NEVER China had no stone, but rather, I am no geologist, but China is a lime stone where hard stone are harder to come by.


So congratulations on refuting something no one claimed.

Second, really? Han dynasty made NO STONE STRUCTURE?

Do you mean Han dynasty made no structure with stone that are standing today?


Also, the Romans were able to transport 60 ton granite pillars a thousand miles form Egypt when they built the Pantheon. Stone could be transported to where its needed.

The Chinese transported woods thousands of miles. Big deal.

Now if you want to make the claim that China could have make great giant structure with stones, but simply chose not to do so even though they have the stone, I like to see some research first.

And the Chinese have plenty of material to make bricks out of. While the Romans preferred stone, they could use bricks when needed. There is a castle in norther Europe that was built out of bricks because stone was hard to come by in the area.

The Romans used stone which was readily available. It wasn't like they picked out of the three and say nope we be using this.

The Chinese used whatever was readily available. They used brick and wood because these are readily available.

Making any other claim would REQUIRE YOU to prove that the Chinese had wood, brick, and stone, and intentionally NOT use stone.

(Contrary to Chinese typical false claims, the Anji bridge was not the first open spandel segmental arch bridge in tne world. The Trajan Birdge was an open spandal brige built 500 years earlier. The Anji bridge was merely the first open spandel segmental bridge out of stone.)
Congratulation to preemptive some argument no one made.
 
Joined Feb 2011
10,194 Posts | 3,839+
Zhengguo canal, still used today:
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Lingqu canal, still used today:
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Dujiangyan Canal, still used today:
g492BnU.jpg



Han dynasty bridge with iron planks:
EajvNMn.jpg



Western Han dynasty iron bridge prier, 1.32 tons:
DZ8KHPp.jpg


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You'll find that most of the excavated ironwork sites are in Henan, because there's an archaeologist in Henan who focused on excavating these sites.



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But I don't find these to be the most significant. Why? Because relatively speaking, it don't affect the lives of average people (farmers), not as much as compared to this:



cQZk23i.jpg

What's that? Precision seeding and alternating fields (made possible by precision seeding). Even without a multi-tube seeder, you could still do it by hand, as shown in the top left pictorial. It increases yield while reduces the amount of seed you need to save for next year. This is something that most people would be practicing, and hence affect the productive capabilities of the majority of people.



[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Master Lu’s Spring and Autumn Manual of the 3th century BC described
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]if the crops are grown in rows they will mature rapidly because they will not interfere with each other’s growth. The horizontal rows must be well drawn, the vertical rows made with skill, for if the lines are straight the wind will pass gently through.”

[/FONT][/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] On alternating fields:[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]He[Wudi] made Chao Kuo the chief commandant for grain. Kuo knew how to make tai-t'ien, or "alternating land," in which one mu had three furrows whose position was exchanged yearly. Hence it was named alternating land. This was an old method, Hou chi being the first to arrange fields with furrows.....Kuo experimented by having the guards at the detached palaces till the side lots of the palaces. A check of their harvest showed that they all obtained over a hu per mu more than adjoining fields. He ordered that the soldiers teach their relatives to cultivate the government lands of the three metropolitan districts. He also taught the border commanderies and of Chu-yen city. Later he also taught the border commanderies and of Chu-yen city. Later he also taught the people of the border cities, of Ho-tung and Hung-nung commanderies, and the three metropolitan districts, and of the territory under the jusrisdiction of the grand minister of ceremonies; all found the tai-t'ien system advantageous. They expended less labor and obtained more grain - Han Shu
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]This is the earliest example I know of to something close to a controlled experiment.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]You can see how diet in the Han era improved, at least in terms of animal protein intake:[/FONT]





Not only that, but there is little difference between animal protein consumption between skeletons found in wealthy graves, and skeletons found in basic graves (at least for Xuecun, at any rate):



The same held true for animal consumption between genders. This simply is not the case for Zhou graves, in which there was significant disparity in animal consumption between the wealthy and the average peoples.
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT]
 
Joined Feb 2011
10,194 Posts | 3,839+
@HackeyneyedScribe

What was you estimation for the amount of iron produced by Han blast furnaces? I seem to remember you said conservatively 43,000 tons, or something. Is that right? More?

I see here you said 32,700, but I think you went up a bit elsewhere:

http://historum.com/ancient-history/41856-ancient-industry.html


No one knows for sure. My estimations were merely meant to show how Donald Wagner used his equations, not as an exact estimate. It's an example of HOW to do the equations, IF you have complete knowledge of all variables involved, but we don't. And also to show that Donald Wagner assumed 100 tons/annum per furnace, even though he himself said Han furnace production should be "several hundred tons per year". He assumed 49 furnaces within the Han empire, even though there's way more than that. I can't get an exact result with "several hundred tons per year", so I just chose a number that's "several hundred tons". So don't treat my calculations as an exact number.
 
Joined Oct 2012
813 Posts | 16+
I think the name "bridge pier" should tell you all you need to know.

As for the iron planks, no I don't know how they were used. Maybe somebody does.

The name in this case isn't that helpful. The pier doesn't look tall and I can't make out how it would fit into the bigger structure. Maybe it served as support to pieces that would fit into the hole and make the base of the bridge?
 
Joined Dec 2011
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The Chinese transported woods thousands of miles. Big deal.
Yes, big deal. It's far harder to transport 60 ton granite pillars.


The Chinese used whatever was readily available. They used brick and wood because these are readily available.

Making any other claim would REQUIRE YOU to prove that the Chinese had wood, brick, and stone, and intentionally NOT use stone.
I am not sure what you are arguing here. The Chinese did use stone sometimes, in the medieval period (eg Great Wall). Are you saying that they intentionally didn't use stone 2000 years ago? I thought I had seen pictures on here showing that they did.



Bricks are easier to make than masonry. What we have shows that the Romans used a lot of stone, brick and wood in their structures, many of which are recognisable, even functional, 2000 years later. There seem to be relatively few Chinese structures surviving of that age.
 
Joined Sep 2012
10,148 Posts | 703+
India
The name in this case isn't that helpful. The pier doesn't look tall and I can't make out how it would fit into the bigger structure. Maybe it served as support to pieces that would fit into the hole and make the base of the bridge?

As a structural engineer, I want to point out that piers do not have to be necessarily tall. The deck level of any bridge needs to be decided first. This level should be such that the bottom of the deck should clear high flood level plus a freeboard for the floatsam. Once that is decided, you have to decide on the number of piers which are ,in fact, the supports for the deck. Once the number of piers and their positions in the river gorge is decided, the heights of the pier are decided automatically. Short or tall. Just depends on the bottom level of the deck, also called soffit of the deck.
No rigid connection between pier and the deck member is mandatory. The bridge deck girder can be continuous over the piers or be simply supported on piers or fixed to the piers. It depends on the design.
 
Joined Aug 2015
2,792 Posts | 375+
Los Angeles
Yes, big deal. It's far harder to transport 60 ton granite pillars.
I don't know my stones. Are you saying they transported the entire 60 ton slap of granite pillars? Or the cut stone? Why is cut stone more difficult than uncut wood beams?

I am not sure what you are arguing here. The Chinese did use stone sometimes, in the medieval period (eg Great Wall). Are you saying that they intentionally didn't use stone 2000 years ago? I thought I had seen pictures on here showing that they did.
At no point did I ever mention the Chinese didn't use stone.

In fact, my argument is that if someone is going to say the Chinese are bad engineers than the Romans because the Romans and the Chinese all had stones available, but the Romans picked stones because they invest in their infrastructure more but the Chinese cheap out and use wood, I WANT PROOF.

So essentially, if someone wants to say the Chinese intentionally didn't use stone, I want proof.


Bricks are easier to make than masonry. What we have shows that the Romans used a lot of stone, brick and wood in their structures, many of which are recognisable, even functional, 2000 years later. There seem to be relatively few Chinese structures surviving of that age.

Which is fine. I am not arguing that China had MORE surviving buildings than the Romans.

However, Bart was framing it such that BECAUSE China had less surviving buildings than the Romans, they are worse architect and engineers than the Romans because 1) they didn't use stone and 2) their buildings didn't last.

Similarly, the great engineering marvels of the ancient world were often destroyed and pillaged, it doesn't make the Mausoleum or the Great Lighthouse any less impressive or engineering unsound than the ones that still stand today. To say the Chinese building didn't survive when the Chinese built over these landmarks is really a poor argument.
 
Joined Feb 2011
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The real need for proof is: Did ancient architects think "I want this building to last my lifetime or maybe my grandkid's lifetime" or "I want this building to last 2000 years".

By common sense, when most normal people live in a house, they think temperature, comfort, living space, proximity to workplace, and lighting. If they considered durability, they would consider if it's easy to break/enter, or can it last through a lifetime of varying weather. Not whether it'll last 2000 years worth of varying types of weather. If it did last 2000 years, good for them.
 
Joined Dec 2011
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If it did last 2000 years, good for them.
What does good for them mean? It surely means that they really were very well built doesn't it? If you build a bridge, for example, you would rather not have to make a replacement, well, ever. And if some other civilisation made things that did not last as long, then those things were not as well built.



Quite possibly you could say that the Romans didn't NEED to build things to last that long, and that things were over-engineered and too costly, but that would require evidence.



I think we can be sure that the Chinese did have stone available, but apparently didn't build as many stone structures, or if they did they were not as well built and long lasting.
 
Joined Feb 2011
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I judge what is well built as according to what it's designed for. In fact, all designs should be judged based on what they are designed for. If I build a race car for speed, and the race car can't go past 50 mph but can still last a thousand years, then good for it. Its ability to stand the test of time certainly is impressive, but when it comes to other attributes of a car like speed or mileage, its break sensitivity or its air bags. Its ability to last 2000 years certainly is way down the list. I'm just happy if it won't break down in my lifetime.

Quite possibly you could say that the Romans didn't NEED to build things to last that long, and that things were over-engineered and too costly, but that would require evidence.

Evidence of what? That Romans NEED a building to last 2000 years, and if it only lasted 1000 years or 500 years it'll cost the empire dearly? I don't think I require proof to say we certainly don't NEED our skyscrapers to last 2000 years (and being made out of steel and glass, it probably won't unless if it's maintained throughout this period). But I'm pretty sure a modern skyscraper requires higher technology to build than anything the ancients built, but if a skyscraper can't last 2000 years without repair I really doubt architects are losing sleep over it.
 
Joined Dec 2009
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Which is why the claim was NEVER China had no stone, but rather, I am no geologist, but China is a lime stone where hard stone are harder to come by.


So congratulations on refuting something no one claimed. 

Then why did you bring up in the issue of available stonemin China when discussing why the Chinese built out of stone. You were trying to explain away something that was refuted by the realities of of later dynasties

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Second, really? Han dynasty made NO STONE STRUCTURE?

Do you mean Han dynasty made no structure with stone that are standing today? 

No Han stone structures still standing today, aside from a few tombs - no bridges, no temples, no public buildings of any kind. There are more ancient structures still standing and being used in Rome than in all of China..

Later dynasties did build out of stone and brick, and we find lots Chinese stone bridges from later dynasties, just not from the Han dynasty. The fact that later dynasties built temples, bridges, and other structures out of brick and stone raises questions about some of the coomon explanations given - such as earth quakes, unavailability of stone and brick. If it was simply a case of preference, no ancient text supports that view, and the logic is circular - Chinese built out of wood, therefore it must be out of preference.

If you are going to post, than you should have to ask me those questions, you should have known the answer before asking me.

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The Chinese transported woods thousands of miles. Big deal. 

It is a big deal. 60 tons single block of stone across the open sea is larger than an existing Han dynasty ship we know of. It is easy to transport wood, you can float it down the river, and even the largest timber pillar weights a whole lot less than 60 tons. Stone blocks are much harder to transport.

And please provide an actual example of the Chinese transporting woods thousands of miles. The wood that was used for the Forbiden Palace I only tnougnt was transported hundreds of miles, not thousands. Still, even the heaviest pillar in tne Forbidden Palace weight on a fraction of the 60 ton pillars, and way less than the 200 ton obelisk the Romans transported to Rome from Egypt. There is no evidence that the Chinese ships even in the Song and Ming dynasty ever carried such a heavy single block.

Anyway, my point was that the excuse you try to make was not valid, since you can always import material if you chose.

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Now if you want to make the claim that China could have make great giant structure with stones, but simply chose not to do so even though they have the stone, I like to see some research first. 

You made the claim, not me. I only assert that building out of wood requires a lower level of investment - it is easier to transport and carve wood, and the weight of any given wood section is less, so sophisticated lifting cranes used by Romans anf Greeks were not required.

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The Romans used stone which was readily available. It wasn't like they picked out of the three and say nope we be using this. 

The example of the granite pillars of the Pantheon demonstrates that it wasn't always a case of what was readily available. Transporting a 60 ton pillar from Egypt across the sea is hardly counts as readily available.

Now, like any sensible people, they will often use materials that are readily available if they are sufficent for the purpose, but the Roman use of stone, brick, and concrete wasn 't necessarily dictated by a lack of wood. The Roman built impressive stone structures in tneir German province, yet Germany was heavily wooded at the time. Roofs were often built out of wood using sophisticated truss design.

It Rome, many of the low rent multi-story apartment buildings were built out of wood, Romans did build out of wood when it was suited. Just for buildings that matter, they typically chose stone, brick, concrete

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The Chinese used whatever was readily available. They used brick and wood because these are readily available. 

Actually, the whole point is the Han did not readily use brick or stone (outside of a few tombs), but later dynasties did. We find brick pagodas and stone bridges from later dynasties, just not from the Han dynasries. Material for bricks were readily available, yet its use was restricted in the Han dynasty. And if the Chinese were transporting wood thousands of miles, that doesn't seem readily available.

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Making any other claim would REQUIRE YOU to prove that the Chinese had wood, brick, and stone, and intentionally NOT use stone. 

No, the burden of proof is on you, not me. We know the Chinese had stone, later dynasties used it, we have structures such as stone bridges from them. Just not the Han. If you are going to claim, as you seem to do, that the Han dynasty knew how to construct stone bridges that wouldn't fall down, and other stone buildings, but simply chose not to, that is supply you need to prove.

That stone is more costly to use, more difficult to carve due to being harder, more difficult to transport due to greater density and weight, requires higher skill to construct since it is less forgivig in tension, and more planning to join, all means its use most probably requires greater investment than for wood. Maybe the Han didn't want to pay for that higher investment cost for items of public use, but only reserved it for use in tombs, maybe they thought the cost benefit analysis made them prefer wood for lower initial cost, maybe they didn't have the skills needed to construct stone bridges and temples, we can onnly guess.


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Joined Aug 2015
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I am off topic, my point is Chinese were bad stone mason doesn't mean the level of technique for wood building are less advance than stone buildings.

Of course, someone with a engineering background can explain to me why stone buildings were necessary superior in terms of engineering and skills than wood building, I am all ears.
 
Joined Feb 2011
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Well, if we're just talking about stone structures, not buildings, then the Han did build plenty of these things aboveground:

Gao_Yi_Que2.jpg
 
Joined Mar 2012
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As a structural enginee...

As a structural engineer, you know that the Romans used their own special concrete, opus caementicium, as well as arches, domes and vaults, to create wonders not to be found elsewhere in the ancient world. So magnificent are they, in fact, that you could not believe that they were from the ancient world, but imagined them from another, more advanced era. Today, thousands travel from all corners of the globe to marvel.

Whenever we get into this, we always have the crowd that jumps in and claims that wood buildings were just as good...civilization X could have done it if they wanted...etc. The fact is, Roman architecture is recognized as a revolution from engineers and historians throughout the world, and it is self-evidently so. I just let the picures speak for themsleves. Here are a few more.










images


220px-Roman_aqueduct_Tarragona.jpg


23512db245e021e1341d2d5cc8e6bf34--nerja-spain-bridges.jpg


images
 
Joined Mar 2013
1,441 Posts | 41+
Escandinavia y Mesopotamia
Just my perspective:

There was no such thing as “most advanced” in Antiquity or Middle Ages in the same way as we can say that Germany and Japan are superior to Iraq or Bangladesh today.

In Antiquity almost all societies with rational agriculture were the most advanced. All agricultural societies were advanced. In Eurasia it was the eastern Mediterranean Sea (and western Europe came around year 1000CE or so), and Persia, and the Northern India, and China with its two rivers. – Ethiopia and Maya civilizations were also advanced in their respective regions.

However, the wealth was somehow the same in all the places I think.

A British family and an Indian family in 1700 had somehow the same material wealth. It was first during the Industrial Revolution in 1750 or so that it changed, and from now on one could say that some countries were more advanced than others.



And something else regarding China-civilization and its use of bamboo:
I was also taught at the uni that Chinese civilization used perishable stuff like woods instead of stones, and that it was the reason why China dosn't have a large amount of archeological remnants as the Romans who used stones. But it was in a world-history course and I did not have Chinese history in deep, so I could be wrong but I don’t think so. If the sinologists refute this, then I am most likely wrong.
 
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