Joined Apr 2010
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Awesome
Which countries' independence nowadays would you say are the biggest historical flukes?
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Joined Jan 2017
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Republika Srpska
Joined Jul 2019
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Ghana
Actually, no, it was not a legitimate referendum and a voter turnout of 43% clearly shows that a sizeable chunk of the Catalan people boycotted the vote precisely because it wasn't legitimate. You see an election result of 92% pro-secession with 57% of eligible voters not even participating and you think that's democratic? It's not.
A link to an official Catalan government site that was shared here earlier shows how they are indeed trying to rewrite history and create an invented national narrative, in a way that should make any historian shudder. I've come across Catalan nationalists on other history forums discussing Antiquity related subjects, and they were significantly annoying. They were doing a lot of the bad kind of revisionism. You know, the obviously political type of historical revisionism. There were different groups of them and then I realized it's all part of a concerted effort to create, or better said, invent an new national identity at the expense of their own integrity and respectability. It's creepy... One of my Belgian friends once referred to Puigdemont as a crypto-fascist, which made me chuckle. He and many around him indeed seem to be wolves in sheep's clothing.
I don't understand the mentality behind pointing fingers at Spanish nationalists while not pointing fingers at the obviously very dirty games that Catalan nationalists have been playing as well. They have literally forced the hand of Madrid, in a well coordinated manner, to create a victim narrative. Madrid clearly handled the situation without much tact, but few countries remain cool when their territorial integrity is at stake. Catalonia is full of Castilian speakers as well. There's no way to separate the two in a clean manner without creating even bigger rifts than there already are.
Joined Oct 2015
273 Posts | 36+
Singapore
Dissolution of Czechoslovakia - Wikipedia
Czechoslovak history - Velvet Revolution, Velvet Divorce | Britannica
Czechoslovak history - Velvet Revolution, Velvet Divorce: In 1989 a wave of protests against communist rule erupted in eastern Europe; among the most significant events were the culmination of the Polish Solidarity movement, the adoption of a democratic constitution in Hungary, and the mass...
www.britannica.com
Joined Apr 2010
50,502 Posts | 11,794+
Awesome
With probably only one exception, no secession has ever been. But that's how secessions happen, and countries should learn from that one example, because it shows peaceful, cooperative secession can happen.
Joined Apr 2010
50,502 Posts | 11,794+
Awesome
But it's not as if they were forced away at gunpoint. If you don't vote, you can't complain that your voice hasn't been heard.
To pro-unity voters had the choice of turning up and overwhelming the independence vote. They chose not to.
Suppose, for a minute, what would have happened if the result of that referendum had been no. The entire Catalan government would have probably resigned, very few people would have complained then if they had been charged with mismanagement of funds, and the question of independence would have been put to bed.
Instead, it's been suppressed and history shows that only tends to exacerbate it.
Joined Jan 2017
7,817 Posts | 3,302+
Republika Srpska
Except in Czechoslovakia's case both sides were willing to go their separate ways. It was not really a secession, it was more of a cooperated break-up. In Catalonia's case it is not the same. Spain has no reason to let Catalonia go.
Because they saw the vote as illegitimate. By turning up and voting they would be giving legitimacy to the whole thing. It's similar to how in some authoritarian countries the opposition boycotts the elections.
There is a distinction between dissolution of a state as in the case of Czechoslovakia, that ceased to exist / split peacefully into two successor states, Czechia and Slovakia and unilateral secession of part of a state as in the case of Croatia that had declared independence from Yugoslavia. The latter is essentially a unilateral process, whereas the former is bilateral and consensual.
Joined Apr 2010
50,502 Posts | 11,794+
Awesome
The nature of secessions is usually that one side doesn't want to let go. But what is preferable, a peaceful cooperative secessaion, or a violent struggle?
That was their choice, but it was an excuse.
Joined Apr 2010
50,502 Posts | 11,794+
Awesome
What about the independence of Slovenia?
Croatia turned violent, as do most secessions. Slovenia didn't. And in the case of Slovenia, only the people of Slovenia voted for independence, not the people of the whole Yugoslavia, as it was then.
Joined Mar 2013
30,120 Posts | 16,087+
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The American Civil War proves that is a false statement. It didn't make the South successfully secede.
Chechen independence has been successfully crushed by the Russians. In fact, they first declared independence, then had de facto independence, and then utterly lost it. Then they had an insurgency, but it failed and stopped in 2017. Nowadays, the movement is pretty much dead.
So, that's not an axiom.
Joined Mar 2013
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Why are you assuming there's an universal answer? I'm perfectly fine with the South not being allowed to secede and continue to uphold slavery. Seems most Americans have been fine with that ever since it happened.
Joined Mar 2013
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Joined Jan 2017
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Republika Srpska
Depends on the circumstances. In Yugoslavia's case for example a peaceful secession was preferable to the carnage that happened. In the case of the US and the CSA, I cannot say the same.
Slovenia and Croatia's secession were illegal. It's just that the political circumstances at the time favoured them so their independence was recognized.
They had their own short war of independence, ten days conflict between Yugoslavian Army and the predecessor of Slovenian Army of today.
Joined Mar 2013
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Joined Apr 2010
50,502 Posts | 11,794+
Awesome
History suggests that is an anomaly.
For now. I'm willing to bet it's still there. Tito successfully suppressed seperatism for 40 years, but once he was gone, it took less than 20 years for Yugoslavia to break up.
Joined Apr 2010
50,502 Posts | 11,794+
Awesome
Judging by comments on this forum, that opinion isn't shared by some people in the South.
Joined Mar 2013
30,120 Posts | 16,087+
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