Who do you think Jack the Ripper was?

paranoid marvin · Jan 15, 2017

Straudenbecker said:
Maybrick? How is this still considered accurate? Bruce Robinson diary has already been proven as a forgery two decades ago. Must be trying to make money off it. It is inaccurate in so many details that it is laughable.

JenniferHJohnstone, that was one of the points I was trying to make. Some of the best researchers and members of law enforcement have been able to eliminate suspects on the list, do to old registry records showing them somewhere else (out of country, out of London, or a different part of the city) when the murders took place. Even proofing that those in the city could not cover the distance and back in time to have their solid alibis, even with a carriage, and the early morning hours.

The time between the two murders in the same night, is doable with at that distance, by using the alleyways, and being in good shape to run a small stretch or jog. Then walk the rest of the way.

Doable, but practicable? You've just murdered someone and possibly you have blood on your clothes. At any moment the murder could be discovered, so really the last thing you want is to be seen running through the streets in the opposite direction with blood on your hands.

The reason 'Jack' wasn't caught is because he was very careful; there was some between the murders, he chose the cover of night, he chose a neighbourhood with warrens of streets, some of which even police dared not go down alone. He chose targets that would willingly allow him to get close to them in secluded places and who very likely were too intoxicated to put up any kind of resistance.

Two murders in one night was not the way he did things; it risked exposure and he was incredibly lucky to get away with it. It's coincidental for two murders to occur within a short period of each other, but hardly beyond possibility. I can't say with any certainty that it wasn't Jack who was responsible for both, but there are a number of things about it that raise doubts.

paranoid marvin · Jan 15, 2017

jackydee said:
I would make a distinction between Stride's murder and Kelly's when discussing the possibility of two JtR's. IF Stride was murdered by someone other than JtR then it is a mistake on the part of the investigative bodies not a copycat. I would say it still means only one JtR....but now with less victims.

Kelly is often pointed to as the most likely copycat victim. If it turns out she was killed by someone different then I would admit there were indeed two JtR's. I do think it far more likely she was killed by the same hand as Eddowes etc. To me a copycat would more likely a JTR lite version, someone who slashed and ripped to make it look like a Ripper victim. Kelly's body was completely destroyed. If it were a copycat it was done by a particularly disturbed copycat not a copycat by necessity(i.e someone like Joe Barnett attempting to make it look like a Ripper crime).

Stride was a prostitute who had had her throat cut - no mutilation. I would imagine that if someone wanted to kill someone back then, then slashing their throat would have been a pretty common method. People try to attribute it to 'Jack' saying that he was maybe disturbed or somehow scared away from carrying out the rest of his 'work'; but for me an annoyed pimp or client killing her (perhaps slashing the throat to make it look like a 'ripper' victim) is a more logical explanation.

I would imagine that people (as is usually the case) would be prepared to blame any misfortune or bad thing that happened on JtR.

jackydee · Jan 15, 2017

paranoid marvin said:
Doable, but practicable? You've just murdered someone and possibly you have blood on your clothes. At any moment the murder could be discovered, so really the last thing you want is to be seen running through the streets in the opposite direction with blood on your hands.

The reason 'Jack' wasn't caught is because he was very careful; there was some between the murders, he chose the cover of night, he chose a neighbourhood with warrens of streets, some of which even police dared not go down alone. He chose targets that would willingly allow him to get close to them in secluded places and who very likely were too intoxicated to put up any kind of resistance.

Two murders in one night was not the way he did things; it risked exposure and he was incredibly lucky to get away with it. It's coincidental for two murders to occur within a short period of each other, but hardly beyond possibility. I can't say with any certainty that it wasn't Jack who was responsible for both, but there are a number of things about it that raise doubts.

I know your reply was not aimed at me but I would say it was very practicable. I am desperately trying to get the info but im sure I have read that the walk/jog was certainly doable. I would say it's even more doable as a walk as we don't have the exact time Stride was murdered, all we have is an estimated time. Just a couple minutes out either way could change JtR's walk from a leisurely walk, a brisk walk or jog/walk. Plus, If Schwartz did indeed interrupt the killer then that immediately encourages the killer not to partake in a leisurely walk for the first few hundred yards. He would be away from the crime scene sharpish.

Straudenbecker · Jan 15, 2017

Stride was killed about 1:00 am. There is a witness, forget his name who gave a report that Stride was thrown in the middle of the street, and the witness chased the man away, but lost track of Stride. This was at approximately 12:45 am. The walk between the two murders is roughly 12 minutes (but I will go with a reliable poster who says 14 minutes). Stride was found at 1:00 am, members of a social club next to Strides body were shouting for police. They found a couple of them on Commercial Road and about 1:10 am they were on the scene. By 1:15 am more constables were on the scene (again I go with a reliable poster) some from far as Leman Street, which would give The Ripper a window to cross the street without being noticed. About 15 or 20 minutes later, a witness with two others spotted Eddowes alive with a man. PC Watkins passed by but did not enter Mitre Square. Ten minutes later PC Harvey passed by, he too did not entered. Watkins came back and entered about 1:44 am, thus finding Eddowes.

The source for much of this information is by authors Coram and Sironi. I believe it was "victims and eyewitness on the night of the double murders", but I could be mistaken.

Fiver · Jan 16, 2017

paranoid marvin said:
There are different descriptions of Jack. He supposedly was responsible for 2 murders within the space of a short period of time. People have put forward theories about different people who may have been responsible - well maybe more than 1 is guilty. Hardly compelling proof, but neither is it conclusive that it wasn't the work of one person, especially when his modus operandi became more widely known.

Jackdaw isn't talking about the idea that the Kelly or Stride murders might not have been by the Ripper, he believes all of the Ripper victims were murdered by a group, what is often referred to as the Royal Conspiracy. Of the various Ripper theories, it's one of the least credible - much of the Royal Conspiracy is provably false, it requires everyone involved to be complete idiots, and it's an admitted hoax.

paranoid marvin · Jan 17, 2017

Fiver said:
Jackdaw isn't talking about the idea that the Kelly or Stride murders might not have been by the Ripper, he believes all of the Ripper victims were murdered by a group, what is often referred to as the Royal Conspiracy. Of the various Ripper theories, it's one of the least credible - much of the Royal Conspiracy is provably false, it requires everyone involved to be complete idiots, and it's an admitted hoax.

Ah, I see.

I have considered this as a possibility; initiation to a club or sect requiring the murder of a prostitute - the more gruesome the better. Or some sick twisted game with the aim being to cause as gruesome a death as possible. In my opinion it is just as likely to be a group of known confidants as it is to be the work of one man. It's interesting that the home secretary offered a free pardon to any accomplice of the Whitechapel murderer, so there was obviously some suspicion that there was more than one person involved.

Peaceful · Jan 24, 2017

Commodus said:
I believe he was a policeman.
To kill two women in one night in so small an area - with cops EVERYWHERE, including undercover officers - would surely be impossible for a commoner, or even a man in the professional classes like a doctor or surgeon. Only a police officer could go from place to place, not arouse suspicion, and never be questioned as to their close proximity to a crime scene.

Not the case. In Victorian London people were going to and coming from work at all times in the morning, many of them butchers and the like walking 'round with blood on their person.

A very different age, and walking the streets at 2 in the morning with blood on you wouldn't have batted an eye lid.

Plus, by the time the police were on the scene of the murders, the killer could have easily walked 15 minutes away from the scene.

In actual fact, the killer could very easily have simply stood up from the body and walked down the street at a slow pace, without arousing any suspicion whatsoever.

Peaceful · Jan 24, 2017

JenniferHJohnstone said:
That's a very interesting theory. It's not something which has crossed my mind. Though it seems so obvious. As, I have often wondered about the events of Mitre Square. How could Jack both murder and escape within that square, when it was surrounded by police.

If he was a policeman, he may have had first had knowledge of the case. If he was working on it. But, even at that, if Jack the Ripper was a policeman, it would have gave him a lot of insight into police movements. Patrols. Possibly information.

It wasn't really surrounded by police, though.

A couple of policemen had a beat 'round that square, one of whom walked 'round the inside of the square and the other walked down a passage and back up again.

I think they passed the same spot every 15 minutes, so plenty of time to get away in the dark when a policemen was heard approaching.

In those days you more or less had to be caught red handed, an in the event you heard a policeman turn the corner you still had time to get away in the dark - and these places were more or less pitch black give or take a moon and some sub-standard street lighting.

And, policing in those days was in its infancy. It took about 20 minutes to put a search together after the discovery of the body in Mitre Square. By that time, the murderer was long gone - he could have probably walked 'round the square 5 times and wandered off when he got bored and still have plenty of time to spare.

notgivenaway · Jan 27, 2017

A sociopathic doctor, who knew how to get away from the police, and take advantage of the emerging status of forensics.

Maybe some Christian fanatic, given him killing prostitutes, or some politician even who did it for kicks and knew he would get away with it.

This isn't proven, but just my suspicions. Police work then was not as thorough as it is now of course, and back then crime was far easier to get away with.

martin76 · Jan 29, 2017

A poor and hang up man with sexual frustrations for decades ...An insignificant little man that no one could ever suspect him... He always killed in Week-ends...at least the "official victims"...

JenniferHJohnstone · Feb 5, 2017

Fiver said:
Huge, but far from complete. According to the Ripper Casebook site, over 500 people have been accused of being the Ripper and I expect at least half can be eliminated easily. Sgt Thick is hardly the only highly unlikely suspect - various versions of the "Royal Conspiracy" have accused Assistant Commissioner Robert Anderson (who was in Switzerland during some of the murders), William Gull (a 72-year old recovering stroke victim), painter Walter Sickert (who was in France during some of the murders), and the Queen's grandson Albert Victor (who wasn't in London during any of the killings).

There is a large list. I think anybody and everybody that lived at the time has been added. It's a fanciful list.

Most of those on the list, aren't serious candidates. We could eliminate most of them. Finding out who Jack the Ripper was becomes a process of elimination. There only seem to be a handful of suspects which we can regard as serious suspects.

But, even with the serious suspects, they don't add up. There isn't enough evidence to say for definite that any of those suspects on the list are Jack the Ripper. Which is why it's a mystery.

Perhaps the reason why we can't convincingly name any of the suspects as being Jack the Ripper, because it is none of them. Perhaps it is an unknown.

JenniferHJohnstone · Feb 5, 2017

kazeuma said:
The policeman theory might work, the Russian misogynist (Leather Apron) might also work.

If I was going to write a fictional account of the Ripper - I would go with Doctor John H. Waston (he has the skills, he is bored, he wants the attention, and he knows police methods), a unknown Charles Manson type, or Doctor Victor Frankenstein (he has the skills and needs body-parts)

If Jack the Ripper was a policeman, it would explain how he got away with the Mitre Square murder.

Peaceful · Feb 5, 2017

martin76 said:
A poor and hang up man with sexual frustrations for decades ...An insignificant little man that no one could ever suspect him... He always killed in Week-ends...at least the "official victims"...

I don't think he did always kill at weekends - I think at least one of the victims was on a Thursday.

JenniferHJohnstone · Feb 5, 2017

paranoid marvin said:
There are different descriptions of Jack. He supposedly was responsible for 2 murders within the space of a short period of time. People have put forward theories about different people who may have been responsible - well maybe more than 1 is guilty. Hardly compelling proof, but neither is it conclusive that it wasn't the work of one person, especially when his modus operandi became more widely known.

The different descriptions of Jack the Ripper could be down to the women's professions. As prostitutes they would have always been surrounded by men; which makes having a definitive description of Jack the Ripper hard.

JenniferHJohnstone · Feb 5, 2017

Straudenbecker said:
Maybrick? How is this still considered accurate? Bruce Robinson diary has already been proven as a forgery two decades ago. Must be trying to make money off it. It is inaccurate in so many details that it is laughable.

JenniferHJohnstone, that was one of the points I was trying to make. Some of the best researchers and members of law enforcement have been able to eliminate suspects on the list, do to old registry records showing them somewhere else (out of country, out of London, or a different part of the city) when the murders took place. Even proofing that those in the city could not cover the distance and back in time to have their solid alibis, even with a carriage, and the early morning hours.

The time between the two murders in the same night, is doable with at that distance, by using the alleyways, and being in good shape to run a small stretch or jog. Then walk the rest of the way.

I see. I agree!

JenniferHJohnstone · Feb 5, 2017

paranoid marvin said:
Doable, but practicable? You've just murdered someone and possibly you have blood on your clothes. At any moment the murder could be discovered, so really the last thing you want is to be seen running through the streets in the opposite direction with blood on your hands.

The reason 'Jack' wasn't caught is because he was very careful; there was some between the murders, he chose the cover of night, he chose a neighbourhood with warrens of streets, some of which even police dared not go down alone. He chose targets that would willingly allow him to get close to them in secluded places and who very likely were too intoxicated to put up any kind of resistance.

Two murders in one night was not the way he did things; it risked exposure and he was incredibly lucky to get away with it. It's coincidental for two murders to occur within a short period of each other, but hardly beyond possibility. I can't say with any certainty that it wasn't Jack who was responsible for both, but there are a number of things about it that raise doubts.

He could have had a horse and cart, instead of running about. In the Mammoth Book of Jack the Ripper, one of the essayists argues that that is how William Bury got about. It makes a convincing case of Bury being Jack.

JenniferHJohnstone · Feb 5, 2017

jackydee said:
I know your reply was not aimed at me but I would say it was very practicable. I am desperately trying to get the info but im sure I have read that the walk/jog was certainly doable. I would say it's even more doable as a walk as we don't have the exact time Stride was murdered, all we have is an estimated time. Just a couple minutes out either way could change JtR's walk from a leisurely walk, a brisk walk or jog/walk. Plus, If Schwartz did indeed interrupt the killer then that immediately encourages the killer not to partake in a leisurely walk for the first few hundred yards. He would be away from the crime scene sharpish.

You'll find maps on the Casebook website or the Jack the Ripper tour websites, I'm sure!

JenniferHJohnstone · Feb 5, 2017

Straudenbecker said:
Stride was killed about 1:00 am. There is a witness, forget his name who gave a report that Stride was thrown in the middle of the street, and the witness chased the man away, but lost track of Stride. This was at approximately 12:45 am. The walk between the two murders is roughly 12 minutes (but I will go with a reliable poster who says 14 minutes). Stride was found at 1:00 am, members of a social club next to Strides body were shouting for police. They found a couple of them on Commercial Road and about 1:10 am they were on the scene. By 1:15 am more constables were on the scene (again I go with a reliable poster) some from far as Leman Street, which would give The Ripper a window to cross the street without being noticed. About 15 or 20 minutes later, a witness with two others spotted Eddowes alive with a man. PC Watkins passed by but did not enter Mitre Square. Ten minutes later PC Harvey passed by, he too did not entered. Watkins came back and entered about 1:44 am, thus finding Eddowes.

The source for much of this information is by authors Coram and Sironi. I believe it was "victims and eyewitness on the night of the double murders", but I could be mistaken.

No, you are spot on

Peaceful · Feb 5, 2017

JenniferHJohnstone said:
He could have had a horse and cart, instead of running about. In the Mammoth Book of Jack the Ripper, one of the essayists argues that that is how William Bury got about. It makes a convincing case of Bury being Jack.

Which parts were convincing?

JenniferHJohnstone · Feb 5, 2017

Fiver said:
Jackdaw isn't talking about the idea that the Kelly or Stride murders might not have been by the Ripper, he believes all of the Ripper victims were murdered by a group, what is often referred to as the Royal Conspiracy. Of the various Ripper theories, it's one of the least credible - much of the Royal Conspiracy is provably false, it requires everyone involved to be complete idiots, and it's an admitted hoax.

Agreed, the royal conspiracy seems far fetched. A royal prince walking around the most notorious part of London would have attracted attention. It would have been amazing if the prince could have got away with one murder, but five seems unlikely.

People would have been on high alert. Those who stood out, would have attracted attention. I'm sure most people must have known what the royals would have looked like, with photography/papers...but I might be wrong in that.

The fact that Jack the Ripper got away with it, suggests someone who could get easily lost in a crowd. Either a local. Or someone normal/everyday.

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