Who was 16th century leading world power?

Domen said:

Tercios were very good but not completely unbeatable:


Some great cavalry vs tercios actions:

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Some comments:

In the battle of Turnhuot (1597) 800 Dutch and English cavalry defeated Spanish cavalry and then charging from the front and from the rear simultaneously, destroyed 4 tercios (one Spanish, two Walloon and one German) under count Varas.

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Spanish cavalry of the age was organized in three branches: Lancers, mounted arquebusiers and pistolers. Opposite to a general belief that consider the Spanish and all of western European cavalry to be composed of pistolers only, as we can see that's wrong, and all of cavalry types fought together. The Dutch cavalry proved in this battle that such organization was obsolete: the Dutch copied the Hugenot cavalry of cuirassers, that is, armoured cavalrymen that charged with pistols and then fought with swords. Again, as usual, Gustavus Adolphus did not invent cuirasser cavalry, but it was an evolution of western Europe cavalry.

In Turhout, there were Spanish lancers and German mounted arquebusiers. They were defeated by Dutch cuirassers, as happened in Newport a few years later, which caused the Spanish to adopt the cuirasser system.

About the infantry, there were no Spanish among them. There was a high quality Italian tercio, that was isolated and defeated, two Wallon regiments, that left the battle without fighting, and one German regiment, tha surrender without fighting.

In this sense, the cavalry action of Gembloux was much more impressive, when the Spanish lancers fully destroyed the Protestant army.

In the battle of Nieuwpoort (1600) a charge of few squadrons of Dutch cuirassiers (which also included units consisting of soldiers from England, Scotland, France and Germany) destroyed the tercio of the Spanish right wing.

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It was more like this:

First, the Spanish tercios were actually mutinied. They were called to fight for the King one more time, and they went to fight to save the honour, but the command structure was not good. When the Spanish army deployed in the battlefield, they were bombarded by the Dutch navy, which was close to the area. In spite of that fact, the Spanish infantry charged in the dunes and put in flight the Dutch infantry, modelled according to Maurice system, after four assaults. The Spanish, bombarded by the Dutch navy and walking across the sand after hours of fighting, were disorganized during the pursuit, and Maurice ordered a cavalry assault on the Spanish flank. As in a previous assault, the Dutch cavalry prevailed over the Spanish one, but opposite to that time, the Spanish third line of infantry reserve could not check the menace, since they had been fully commited to battle.

Looking the success of the Dutch cavalry, the Protestant infantry turned back and repulsed the remains of the Catholic army.

In the battle of Rocroi (1643) some Spanish tercios were also defeated by French cavalry charges.

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The Spanish tercios in Rocroi were never defeated by cavalry, but after a full day of unsuccessfull assaults they were offered surrender, which was accepted. But the formations were never destroyed.

Druzhina said:

China was the leading world economic power. Most of the gold and silver mined in the new world eventually found its way to China to buy the goods the Chinese produced. China had no need for goods from Europe.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

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China was always very willing to buy clocks an other precision work from the Europeans.

The Spanish Empire without a shadow of a doubt.

In response to original question:

In terms of sheer power, the answer could be:

1. Ming China
2. Mughal India
3. Ottoman Empire and Spanish Empire


In terms of historical impact, it is clear that Spanish, in combination to Portuguese actions, had a much more important impact in world history. Consider how civilizations of the New World were changed, and how through transmission of crops and wealth the entire Old World was changed, from Europe to China.

AEthelred Nearly Ready said:

That may be so and I see the thread is called "Who was the 16th century leading world power" but as this is a European thread, i would look at what was going on in Europe at the time and there certainly wasn't a perceived threat from China. Spain was the power that all feared at that time.

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I agree; Spain was the Super power of the World at the time, they had ships travailing the World...

MarshallBudyonny said:

The Spanish Empire without a shadow of a doubt.

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I agree

Frank81 said:

In response to original question:

In terms of sheer power, the answer could be:

1. Ming China
2. Mughal India
3. Ottoman Empire and Spanish Empire


In terms of historical impact, it is clear that Spanish, in combination to Portuguese actions, had a much more important impact in world history. Consider how civilizations of the New World were changed, and how through transmission of crops and wealth the entire Old World was changed, from Europe to China.

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I think it is like this:

-Spain

-Portugal

-Hapsburg Family

-France

-Ottoman Empire

-Ming Dynasty China

-Mughal India

-"Holy Roman Empire" (Germany)

- England

First half was Ottoman Empire. Second was Ming Dynasty China.

Ottoman Empire was overall at an advantage of the competition to other powers, including Safavid Empire, Kingdom of Spain and Holy Roman Empire. Ming Dynasty China recovered in 1570's and became the centre of world economy. Chinese used cotton, silk, and china to defeat Spainish Empire. Kingdom of Portugal lacked a land force comparable with these three powers.

Landsknecht said:

I agree; Spain was the Super power of the World at the time, they had ships travailing the World...




I agree



I think it is like this:

-Spain

-Portugal

-Hapsburg Family

-France

-Ottoman Empire

-Ming Dynasty China

-Mughal India

-"Holy Roman Empire" (Germany)

- England

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England was growing in importance, but it wasn't a major power yet.
It doesn't deserve to be on the list.

Ming China by the 16th century was an economic powerhouse but militarily weak relative to it's size and prosperity. The Ming military fell into a rapid decline in the mid 15th century and never really recovered (see Ray Huang's 1587, a Year of No Significance: The Ming Dynasty in Decline)

Spain over the Ottomans, for a few reasons:

-Spain was a truly global power, while the Ottoman empire dominated only the southern and eastern Mediterranean and Anatolia.

-The Ottomans did not fare well in their 16th century conflicts with the Spanish. They were brutalised and humiliated at Tunis, Malta, Lepanto...

-Spain was more culturally influential. Spanish influence was so great that largely through their efforts much of Central America, South America and the Philippines were converted to Catholicism.

-The Spanish proved themselves against more than one great power. They bettered France in most of their conflicts and at times they were holding off the Protestants almost single-handedly.

Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth is worth mentioning.

I think the signing of Tordesilhas Treaty in 1494 (end of the 15th century) made clear who were the leading powers back then... Portugal was a pioneer modern global power, Spain was the biggest.

Both Portugal and Spain were a global power at the time, the first ones in Europe to do it. It's true though that the Kingdom of Portugal got weaker in the second half of the century, eventually ending in the annexation of Portugal by Spain in 1580 due to the Succession Crisis.

Spain and the Ottomans.

I would Spain.

Probably Spain.

I would say Spain, but they were quick to finish. Their reach was impressive but their control and continued influence faded the more area they controlled. Compare this to England from the late 1600's until the 20th century, it pale's in comparison.

France and Spain on land, the Dutch Republic at sea.

The #1 would probably be the Ottoman Empire, under Suleiman. The Spanish Empire is certainly the top amongst Christendom, but probably a bit behind the Ottomans for the century. The Ming Dynasty has taken a step or two back from its heights under the Yongle Emperor in the 15th Century. Babur founds the Mughal Empire in 1526 and under his grandson Akbar (1556-1605) it ascends to phenomenal heights, but probably soared even higher in the following century under Aurangzeb.

1. Ottoman Empire
2. Mughal Empire
3. Spanish Empire
4. Ming Dynasty
5. Portuguese Empire

Rommel202 said:

The #1 would probably be the Ottoman Empire, under Suleiman. The Spanish Empire is certainly the top amongst Christendom, but probably a bit behind the Ottomans for the century. The Ming Dynasty has taken a step or two back from its heights under the Yongle Emperor in the 15th Century. Babur founds the Mughal Empire in 1526 and under his grandson Akbar (1556-1605) it ascends to phenomenal heights, but probably soared even higher in the following century under Aurangzeb.

1. Ottoman Empire
2. Mughal Empire
3. Spanish Empire
4. Ming Dynasty
5. Portuguese Empire

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No, I don´t think so. the Spanish Empire not only was greater than ottoman.. beside the Spanish Army and the Spanish Navy were better.

Seven said:

I would say Spain, but they were quick to finish. Their reach was impressive but their control and continued influence faded the more area they controlled. Compare this to England from the late 1600's until the 20th century, it pale's in comparison.

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No, the Spanish Empire begun in 1492 and finished in 1898 = 406 years = 16 generations.
The French Empire begun in 1870 and finished in 1962 = 82 years
The British Empire begun in 1763 and finished in 1960 = 197 years.
The Portuguese Empire begun in 1445 and finished in 1975 = 530 years = 21 generations

And you say the Spanish Empire was "short" in the time... And in Europe, the Spanish hegemony last almost 200 years.

Druzhina said:

China was the leading world economic power. Most of the gold and silver mined in the new world eventually found its way to China to buy the goods the Chinese produced. China had no need for goods from Europe.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Click to expand...

Though who was making the discoveries, or the naval technology? Or the new foods and other items? I think people often overrate China's economic dominance pre-Age of Discovery. It only came from having a large population and a large geographical empire, not from any innovation in economic systems or economic organisation.