Joined Mar 2011
1,875 Posts | 0+
Georgia USA
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Joined Mar 2009
25,361 Posts | 13+
Texas
You're a moth to a yellow flame.
I"m handcuffed on this thread, that's why I've been so silent.
Don't take my non-participation as shying away and holding class on this
topic. But, I'm in a hole on these two guys. This is like picking
which child is your favorite and both are standing right in front of you,
waiting for an answer.
I like both men, Jefferson more so than Adams, but I cannot with a clear
conscience rip off Adams's coat and declare a duel.
There are things about both men that gives them a free pass because of
their times and we today have the 200 year old vision to see what they
couldn't. Jefferson barely lost to Adams in their first election: three votes
and Jefferson won two terms as president to Adam's one. Jefferson is on
Mt. Rushmore and Adams is not. Jefferson is on our money, Adams is not.
Jefferson is greatly remembered, and Adams only just got off the operating
table thanks to McCullough's fine book and HBO movie.
Jefferson has a monument in Washington, Adams does not.
Jefferson's home is visited by thousands each year, Adams' is not.
These are the little tangible nuances that broke the tie for me.
But one thing that both men were fully agreeable on, is, they both
hated Hamilton!
Joined Mar 2011
1,875 Posts | 0+
Georgia USA
You're a moth to a yellow flame.
I"m handcuffed on this thread, that's why I've been so silent.
Don't take my non-participation as shying away and holding class on this
topic. But, I'm in a hole on these two guys. This is like picking
which child is your favorite and both are standing right in front of you,
waiting for an answer.
I like both men, Jefferson more so than Adams, but I cannot with a clear
conscience rip off Adams's coat and declare a duel.
There are things about both men that gives them a free pass because of
their times and we today have the 200 year old vision to see what they
couldn't. Jefferson barely lost to Adams in their first election: three votes
and Jefferson won two terms as president to Adam's one. Jefferson is on
Mt. Rushmore and Adams is not. Jefferson is on our money, Adams is not.
Jefferson is greatly remembered, and Adams only just got off the operating
table thanks to McCullough's fine book and HBO movie.
Jefferson has a monument in Washington, Adams does not.
Jefferson's home is visited by thousands each year, Adams' is not.
These are the little tangible nuances that broke the tie for me.
But one thing that both men were fully agreeable on, is, they both
hated Hamilton!
your so called nuances exist and yet aren't really tangable.
1) Jefferson gained the presidency becuase slaves we're counted as 3/5 a person and yet did not vote... and yet still needed Hamilton to convince the Federalists to not go with Burr.
2) Some foriegn sculpture chose the 4 on Rushmore... not quite something to prove anything.
3) Adams should be on our money (same as Hamilton and Jefferson)
4) Jefferson is greatly remembered ( a great deal ) for #2-#3-#5
5) FDR used Jefferson as PR (building said monument) to pander to the people as he grew the government in ways that would make Jefferson sick.
6) they visit Motechello because his slaves built him a great place.
and Adam's success in the XYZ affair gave Jefferson relative peace to be able to survive on a tiny navy and no army to speak of.
And thank you Hamilton for giving Jefferson a country and the money to buy that lucky La. Purch. at all.
Jefferson hating Hamilton is a badge of honor
Adams was just jealous.
Joined Mar 2009
25,361 Posts | 13+
Texas
Joined Apr 2011
10,429 Posts | 21+
Virginia
Alexander Hamilton founded my favorite newspaper and was from the Caribbean. Thomas Jefferson founded the best college in the world and was from Shadwell. Adams was from a town called Braintree. Hmmm, how do I choose? I like Charlottesville. Jefferson wins.
Sincerely though, I think that Thomas Jefferson was the finest American that we have ever had. This is very subjective and it is not subject to change.
Sincerely though, I think that Thomas Jefferson was the finest American that we have ever had. This is very subjective and it is not subject to change.
Jefferson. The Louisiana Purchase doubled the size of the country and was a bargain. Yes, it was a no-brainer, sweetheart of a deal that he just happened to luck into. But, in the end, he did, indeed, take advantage of the opportunity. The war against the Barbary Pirates is also underrated. It didn't rewrite national boundaries or create new colonies, but it did show that Americans were willing and able to fight to defend and project their national security interests.
Jefferson's faults are numerous--his scheming and backstabbing against Adams, his slaveholding while railing against the practice as an affront to God and nature, his affair with one of his slaves, his personal overspending, etc., should not be overlooked. However, Adams, while still an admirable founder of the U.S. and a decent, honorable man will forever be tainted by the Alien and Sedition Act. His handling of the transfers of power from Washington and later to Jefferson clearly kept the country united when it could have easily fragmented and is certainly commendable. In the end, however, he appeared to more interested in holding on to what had been gained from the Revolution. Jefferson wanted to expand on the gains and make America a continental power.
Jefferson's faults are numerous--his scheming and backstabbing against Adams, his slaveholding while railing against the practice as an affront to God and nature, his affair with one of his slaves, his personal overspending, etc., should not be overlooked. However, Adams, while still an admirable founder of the U.S. and a decent, honorable man will forever be tainted by the Alien and Sedition Act. His handling of the transfers of power from Washington and later to Jefferson clearly kept the country united when it could have easily fragmented and is certainly commendable. In the end, however, he appeared to more interested in holding on to what had been gained from the Revolution. Jefferson wanted to expand on the gains and make America a continental power.
You give entirely to much credit to Jefferson for the Louisiana Purchase and don't subtract any points for his mishandling of the Burr Conspiracy. Adams main problem is in how you interpret the Alien and Sedition ActI admire both men and would hate to choose between them as the better man in the service of their country but since the OP asks as to rate their performance as presidents I'll have to give the match to TJ.
Adams 3 points for XYZ Affair, 1.5 points for the Quasi War with France; minus 2 points for Alien and Seditions Act.
Jefferson 3 points for Louisiana Purchase (even if it landed on his lap),1 point for Lewis and Clark expedition, 1 point for eliminating tax on whiskey
TJ wins 5 to 2.5
Joined Apr 2011
10,429 Posts | 21+
Virginia
How in the world did his relationship with Sally Hemmings taint him? I do not think that can be a consideration from a historical viewpoint. In my viewpoint it just put him ahead of his time in a place where he could not practice it openly. Sort of like being a ... man in the 1950's.
Joined Mar 2009
25,361 Posts | 13+
Texas
+1 Good remarks for sure. Except the one bruise on Adams perfection, that
hasn't really been raised is, his petty, childish ego. He wanted credit for
everything he did, he wanted everyone to know he was on so and so committee, he was this, he was that. He enjoyed the trappings of being president.
He was so upset at losing to Jefferson that he slipped out of the White House
in the early morning hours. That said, Adams is always my No. two guy.
Joined Mar 2009
25,361 Posts | 13+
Texas
Last edited:
Jefferson had that issue tossed in his face then, and even now.
Such silliness. There is no way, impossible to find out 100% sure that Jefferson fathered the children by Sally.
Digging up Mr. Jefferson is the only way to find out and then,
his DNA is probably too far gone to say.
We are only left with gut feelings and pure speculation.
It is a moot point.
Joined Apr 2011
10,429 Posts | 21+
Virginia
How do you know she was not a willing consensual participant? Are you clairvoyant or did you travel back in time and ask her. You need to reconsider your statement and add "In my view".
NO. The DNA results prooved that Sally Hemmings was related to a male in the Jefferson family. Here is just one source Report of the Research Committee on Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings « Thomas Jefferson Even the ancestors of Jefferson now admit that she was a blood relative. Some try to claim that one of Jefferson's other relatives was the father, but they are the ones who have nothing but pure speculation instead of proof.
Joined Apr 2011
10,429 Posts | 21+
Virginia
None of it matters. Jefferson made babies. Men and women make babies together. She was a woman and he was a man. If they had children together I congratulate the both of them on a job well done.
Someone in the Jefferson family does not mean Thomas Jefferson. To say one way or the other is all speculation. But even if Jefferson was the father of Sally Hemming's children, what does that have to do with how good a president he was?
Joined Apr 2011
10,429 Posts | 21+
Virginia
Well I am a fellow Virginian with The Honorable Mr. Jefferson and I am also one side of an interracial couple. I give the man a pass and am honored to behold him as the finest example of an American citizen.
Joined Apr 2011
10,429 Posts | 21+
Virginia
Many of our good presidents were also excellent cocks-men. This puts him in a category with Mr. F. Roosevelt.
I don't think it really did. That's why I voted for Jefferson. However, it does show that he either didn't believe enough in his own opinions to practice them himself, or that he felt that he was above obeying the rules that he felt should apply to the rest of the world.
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