Who would say is the greatest leader of Europe (from ancient times to 20th Century)

rvsakhadeo · May 6, 2023

Leftyhunter said:
Konrad Adenauer - Wikipedia
Not sure about the best of anything because different eras have different challenges.
Konrad Adenauer has to be one of the best European leaders of at least the last few hundred years or so. Adenauer took a war torn country and with obviously the help of the Marshall Plan rebuilt West Germany and formed with France in 1955 an economic partnership that would over time evolve into the European Union. West Germany would be by the time Adenauer died in 1967 become the most powerful economy in Europe. West Germany never fought a war. West Germany was politically stable and prosperous and that's not an altogether bad legacy.
Leftyhunter

Did Adenauer come under a cloud because of allegations of a Nazi past , in his later years ?

GogLais · May 6, 2023

If we’re going to play this game - Owain Glyndwr.

Leftyhunter · May 6, 2023

rvsakhadeo said:
Did Adenauer come under a cloud because of allegations of a Nazi past , in his later years ?

Not sure but he did what was needed to rebuild West Germany and set it on a democratic path.
Leftyhunter

Leftyhunter · May 6, 2023

Michael Zwingli said:
Okay, I’ll admit that “glorified cheerleader” might be somewhat hyperbolic a term, and also that maintaining resolve and optimism in the populace is important under such circumstances as Britain found itself at the time, but I have always felt, and yet feel, that too much is made of Winston. Partly it’s the way he looked; certainly he didn’t appear to be the type of guy that Americans would consider “leaderly” (could you imagine Winston Churchill in a set of battle fatigues? Absurd!). In the states, where aesthetics have an outsized importance and people are judged by their looks as much as by anything, you not only have to be the real deal, you have to look like the real deal, as well (you know that as well as I do); a fellow like Bill Taft would never be elected president in 21st century America. If you as a man cannot even maintain sufficient personal resolve to maintain your own personal masculinity, then how am I to consider you as my “leader”? I agree that Churchill appeared to be quite adept at doing politics, much in the same way that Tip O’Neill was (a “schmoozer”), but then I would have a hard time considering Tip O’Neill a “great leader” for much the same reason. Simply didn’t look the part. I think that there is a difference between being a “great politician” and a “great leader”.

You say that he “kept Britain in the war” during the Nazi hegemony in Western Europe. How could Britain have done anything other than remain “in the war”, displaying enough ground assets to temporarily deter German thoughts of an amphibious invasion as they were being attacked by aerial bombardment? What type of strategic decisions could Britain have made at the time other than what it did? Without America, there was no hope or question of a Western European invasion of the continent, and America appeared disinclined to involvement. The task for England at the time was to maintain enough population, assets and infrastructure until eventually there was some type of significant change in the status quo: either a “turn of the tide” of the war in the East which would allow Britain to apply the assets that it could in alliance with the Soviets, or somehow convincing American leadership that the Nazi threat was existential. During the interim, there was not much strategic decision to be taken by British leadership, was there? The task for them was to avoid losing too many assets and to maintain the resolve of the British population. “Cheerleading” is a trite term to apply to such a task, but it is not entirely inappropriate, is it? We will never know if Winston Churchill had developed better strategic planning skills than he evidenced during planning of the naval and amphibious campaigns in the Dardanelles in WW1, because he was afforded no opportunity to show that. During the Blitzkrieg, he was “the encourager”, with not many real decisions to be taken, and after American involvement, there were not many decisions for him to take, as most strategic decision making was in American hands.

Churchill was born in 1874 so he was about sixty six in 1940. Churchill in fact was in very good shape while going to Sandhurst and fought with distinction in Sudan plus escaped from a Boer POW Camp so yeah Churchill was a real stud back in the day. Once upon a time it was just fine to be pleasingly plump but by the 1920s onward in America not so much.
Lord Halifax wanted to accept Hitler's offer via the German Ambassador to Switzerland to sign a Friendship Treaty with Nazi Germany in which the British recognize Nazi rule in Europe in exchange the Nazis would pledge not to invade or attack the UK and recognize it's colonial possessions. So yes Churchill most certainly had a choice and Churchill chose not to succumb to Hitler's demands.
Leftyhunter

Michael Zwingli · May 6, 2023

Leftyhunter said:
Once upon a time it was just fine to be pleasingly plump but by the 1920s onward in America not so much.

Yeah, social opinions about that have changed completely. I know retirees…67, 68 years old who are jacked…positively “diesel”. It is certainly no longer considered acceptable to be plump at any age. I think that notions about physical fitness all changed during the bodybuilding craze back in the 70’s with Schwarzenegger, Franco Columbu, et. al. (the “muscle beach” crowd).

As I understand, Churchill was acutely aware that his entire legacy was on the line after his perceived failures in the Dardanelles. He wasn’t about to make any more mistakes, so I’m sure he was certain to seek counsel, and to be very careful in his decision making.

rvsakhadeo · May 6, 2023

Leftyhunter said:
Churchill was born in 1874 so he was about sixty six in 1940. Churchill in fact was in very good shape while going to Sandhurst and fought with distinction in Sudan plus escaped from a Boer POW Camp so yeah Churchill was a real stud back in the day. Once upon a time it was just fine to be pleasingly plump but by the 1920s onward in America not so much.
Lord Halifax wanted to accept Hitler's offer via the German Ambassador to Switzerland to sign a Friendship Treaty with Nazi Germany in which the British recognize Nazi rule in Europe in exchange the Nazis would pledge not to invade or attack the UK and recognize it's colonial possessions. So yes Churchill most certainly had a choice and Churchill chose not to succumb to Hitler's demands.
Leftyhunter

With all that , Churchill was an imperialist. He famously said ' Why Gandhi is not dead ? ' on hearing that there was a famine in India. This was about 1942 -1943.

rvsakhadeo · May 6, 2023

Leftyhunter said:
Not sure but he did what was needed to rebuild West Germany and set it on a democratic path.
Leftyhunter

True. Willy Brandt was said to be another capable German leader. As regards the Nazi past of Germans , every adult German was a Nazi especially in the later years of WW II , when there was obviously no choice.

Leftyhunter · May 6, 2023

rvsakhadeo said:
True. Willy Brandt was said to be another capable German leader. As regards the Nazi past of Germans , every adult German was a Nazi especially in the later years of WW II , when there was obviously no choice.

The leader of East Germany if I am not mistaken fled Nazi Germany and then came back after the Soviet's occupied what would become East Germany. The West Germans in the post war era spent a relatively small amount of their GDP on defense plus they had NATO troops stationed on their soul most famously Elvis Presley . West Germany still was left with a skilled work force and low tariff barriers to the US plus it was one of the first members if the European Economic Community now known as the European Union. West Germany could also source oil and raw materials from the Soviet Union plus it has good access to the Middle East. By the 1960s West German cars were being made in Brazil, Mexico and South Africa so West Germany recovered rather quickly in no small part due to the US Marshall Plan.
Leftyhunter

Leftyhunter · May 6, 2023

rvsakhadeo said:
With all that , Churchill was an imperialist. He famously said ' Why Gandhi is not dead ? ' on hearing that there was a famine in India. This was about 1942 -1943.

I never argued that Churchill walked on water. Fortunately Churchill was out of power a bit after the end of WWII and the British public knew that it was time to leave British India as they had overstayed their welcome by X number of decades. Churchill still managed to become PM in the early to mid 1950s and not all that young . We don't hear much about Churchils last reign as PM.
Leftyhunter

Leftyhunter · May 6, 2023

rvsakhadeo said:
True. Willy Brandt was said to be another capable German leader. As regards the Nazi past of Germans , every adult German was a Nazi especially in the later years of WW II , when there was obviously no choice.

Wilhelm Pieck - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pieck fled Nazi Germany not to long after Hitler came to power and lived in the USSR until the end of WWII.
Leftyhunter

Spartan JKM · May 6, 2023

In terms of a great leader who led in defense for his people, Skanderbeg (a derivative of ‘Alexander’ no less!) appears to have been remarkable as a military leader of allying unruly local nobles in a common cause and playing to one’s strengths against larger enemy armies in battle, and just plain nobleness in that he exclusively defended his territory against those who invaded. That he is a hero to Christianity can carry a unilateral perspective, but the act of successfully defending one’s people for a quarter of a century against a powerful empire with awe-inspiring skill merits high praise. I hope one doesn’t get to cynical with a ‘mythicized’ reputation argument.

PeabodyKid · Jul 22, 2023

robto said:
Before adding any name: I want to know if "the greatest" leader in Europe as the defined category of the OP, is also synonymous with "most humane" category as well.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a reply from AWB.

Silesius Smithee · Jul 22, 2023

PeabodyKid said:
I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a reply from AWB.

Last seen 10 days ago. In the "historum" measure of resurrection of old threads, heck, that was practically yesterday. I don't mind if a moldy-oldy thread get resurrected.

Silesius Smithee · Jul 22, 2023

Who would say is the greatest leader of Europe (from ancient times to 20th Century)

Helmut Kohl of Germany (1982 -'98). Because a former German employer paid me to say that back in the day.

PeabodyKid · Jul 22, 2023

Silesius Smithee said:
Last seen 10 days ago. In the "historum" measure of resurrection of old threads, heck, that was practically yesterday. I don't mind if a moldy-oldy thread get resurrected.

I don't either. But I'm pretty sure I'm right, that AWB posted his 100 people thread, and then three minutes later was the last he has graced these electromagnetic interactions. Odd.

Nick the Noodle · Jul 22, 2023

No one. That's what makes Europe nearly almost great. Hopefully we've evolved beyond dictators. Unfortunately not true at the moment.

Alexander the Gay · Jul 23, 2023

Nick the Noodle said:
No one. That's what makes Europe nearly almost great. Hopefully we've evolved beyond dictators. Unfortunately not true at the moment.

Yeah like they didn't recently made an Oscar winning movie glorifying a genocidal maniac.

Samuraistuff03 · Jul 23, 2023

Militarily, it's Julius Caesar.
Politically, it's got to be Bismarck

pugsville · Jul 23, 2023

Leftyhunter said:
Churchill was born in 1874 so he was about sixty six in 1940. Churchill in fact was in very good shape while going to Sandhurst and fought with distinction in Sudan plus escaped from a Boer POW Camp so yeah Churchill was a real stud back in the day. Once upon a time it was just fine to be pleasingly plump but by the 1920s onward in America not so much.
Lord Halifax wanted to accept Hitler's offer via the German Ambassador to Switzerland to sign a Friendship Treaty with Nazi Germany in which the British recognize Nazi rule in Europe in exchange the Nazis would pledge not to invade or attack the UK and recognize it's colonial possessions. So yes Churchill most certainly had a choice and Churchill chose not to succumb to Hitler's demands.
Leftyhunter

Source for this claim about Halfix?

robto · Jul 23, 2023

Alexander the ... said:
Yeah like they didn't recently made an Oscar winning movie glorifying a genocidal maniac.

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Who would say is the greatest leader of Europe (from ancient times to 20th Century)

rvsakhadeo

GogLais

Leftyhunter

Leftyhunter

Michael Zwingli

rvsakhadeo

rvsakhadeo

Leftyhunter

Leftyhunter

Leftyhunter

Wilhelm Pieck - Wikipedia

Spartan JKM

PeabodyKid

Silesius Smithee

Silesius Smithee