Why did Genghis Khan rate the lives of the Chinese so low?

Sephiroth · Apr 18, 2022

macaquerie said:
I am very curious to know which Mongolian people you met that would gave you the impression that wolves are hated over there, along with all of your other bizarre misconceptions about what their culture and lifestyle is over there, because they must be a pretty eccentric tribe indeed.

? The wolf is not hated what you talking about? They should be hated if they were associated with eating docile sheep as you suggested. But this is clearly not the case.

macaquerie · Apr 18, 2022

Sephiroth said:
? The wolf is not hated what you talking about? They should be hated if they were associated with eating docile sheep as you suggested. But this is clearly not the case.

Most predatory animals have generally done nothing but cause trouble for humans over the millennia, yet somehow people the world over find ways to associate them with all of the positive qualities that they feel their people possess, qualities that these animals often don't actually have but I digress.

Requiem1644 · Apr 18, 2022

Magzhan said:
Many of the dynasties that ruled China were actually not Chinese. These were the Manchus, Khitans, Turks and Mongols. The Chinese (Han) were mostly servants and slaves.

"Many" is an exaggeration. Qin, Han, Tang, Song, Ming were Han Chinese dynasties. Liao was Khitans, Yuan was Mongols, Qing was Manchu. And I don't recall there was any dynasty built by Turks.

Requiem1644 · Apr 18, 2022

Dreamhunter said:
Were Jurchen kind of related to Manchu?

Manchu was rather a newly created nationaliy. In the beginning, they were more like a military league of different tribes than a national identity. They were made of Jurchens, Tongus people, Han Chinese, Koreans. It was complicated since the place they started their whole business is a locatin where different groups of people mixed together. And they don't really care about your identity if you join their tribe and fight for them.

songtsen · Apr 18, 2022

Requiem1644 said:
"Many" is an exaggeration. Qin, Han, Tang, Song, Ming were Han Chinese dynasties. Liao was Khitans, Yuan was Mongols, Qing was Manchu. And I don't recall there was any dynasty built by Turks.

There were many others ruling large parts of China like Northern wei, Tanguts, Jin and many others.

songtsen · Apr 18, 2022

macaquerie said:
For all of your evident fascination with steppe nomads, I think you fail to really comprehend their mindset and world view. There's a reason that the wolf plays such an important role in Mongol and Turkic culture, it symbolizes strength and virility, and the idea of having wolf blood in their veins is a critical component to the nomads' conception of their own identity, as the proverbial wolves who prey on the docile flocks of settled sheep. Replacing the wolf in the story with some random white woman completely undermines the entire point of the myth.

Wolves are pests and hated more than anything. This wolf reverance is a 20th century revisionism. Nomads hate wolves more than anything. I dunno where the foreigners get this idea of wolf worship. It doesn't exist.

Sephiroth · Apr 18, 2022

songtsen said:
Wolves are pests and hated more than anything. This wolf reverance is a 20th century revisionism. Nomads hate wolves more than anything. I dunno where the foreigners get this idea of wolf worship. It doesn't exist.

No it is not revisionism. Evidently the wolf took a ancestor role in Turkic and Mongol culture. Maybe , just maybe it is different with Tibetan nomads? Just like with salt and tea, you can‘t speak for them. Why is this even a thing?

songtsen · Apr 18, 2022

Sephiroth said:
No it is not revisionism. Evidently the wolf took a ancestor role in Turkic and Mongol culture. Maybe , just maybe it is different with Tibetan nomads? Just like with salt and tea, you can‘t speak for them. Why is this even a thing?

Well if we go by ancestry Tibetans are descendant of a Demoness and divine monkey . Phagen (old father) and Magen (old mother) are our direct ancester but we still fear demons. Being half demons ourselves we should worship demons according to some of the posters. This is wrong. Tracing ancestry and worshiping them is a totally different matter.

Being Tibetan have nothing to with this stupid myth of holy wolf. Talk to any real nomad (kazakh/mongol/Tibet) and see how they feel.

Magzhan · Apr 18, 2022

In general, historically the Turks identified the Wolf with Strength and Courage.
The Turks used the image of a wolf on their banners.

Sephiroth · Apr 18, 2022

songtsen said:
Well if we go by ancestry Tibetans are descendant of a Demoness and divine monkey . Phagen (old father) and Magen (old mother) are our direct ancester but we still fear demons. Being half demons ourselves we should worship demons according to some of the posters. This is wrong. Tracing ancestry and worshiping them is a totally different matter.

Being Tibetan have nothing to with this stupid myth of holy wolf. Talk to any real nomad (kazakh/mongol/Tibet) and see how they feel.

Yes it has nothing to do apparently. And indeed maybe no nomad NOWADAYS would identify with wolves because they are not 13th. century warrior steppe nomads or whatever.

Magzhan · Apr 18, 2022

songtsen said:
Well if we go by ancestry Tibetans are descendant of a Demoness and divine monkey . Phagen (old father) and Magen (old mother) are our direct ancester but we still fear demons. Being half demons ourselves we should worship demons according to some of the posters. This is wrong. Tracing ancestry and worshiping them is a totally different matter.

Being Tibetan have nothing to with this stupid myth of holy wolf. Talk to any real nomad (kazakh/mongol/Tibet) and see how they feel.

Hi friend

In fact, there are different conflicting views on the Wolf. There is both a positive attitude towards to the wolf, and there is also a negative attitude towards to the wolf.

songtsen · Apr 18, 2022

Sephiroth said:
Yes it has nothing to do apparently. And indeed maybe no nomad NOWADAYS would identify with wolves because they are not 13th. century warrior steppe nomads or whatever.

Actually it is the reverse. Modern day nomads have modern day morals. They do not indiscimately hunt the wolves. They are quasi environmentalist.

It is the old school nomads who have no time for wolves.

songtsen · Apr 18, 2022

Magzhan said:
Hi friend

In fact, there are different conflicting views on the Wolf. There is both a positive attitude towards to the wolf, and there is also a negative attitude towards to the wolf.

Absolutely. I agree with you 100 percent.

Sephiroth · Apr 18, 2022

songtsen said:
Actually it is the reverse. Modern day nomads have modern day morals. They do not indiscimately hunt the wolves. They are quasi environmentalist.

It is the old school nomads who have no time for wolves.

Frankly it is not even a nomad thing. Whether you were a nomad or not etc. is completely irrelevant.

Dreamhunter · Apr 18, 2022

I don't know. I guess some nomads would also have, at one time or other, rescued some poor hungry abandoned wolf pup somewhere, maybe in the unforgivingly harsh winter, and raised it into some kind of loyal animal companion.

Would quite reasonably have occurred not a few times on the steppes. No?

Sephiroth · Apr 19, 2022

I guess the point is the wolf is not worshipped but rather respected and is the symbol of warrior. Not seen as a companion or anything like this.

Dreamhunter · Apr 19, 2022

Well, it just stands to reason. The wolf is a renown predator and pack hunter. The steppe nomads were also pack hunters, and also quite arguably predators of sorts. Well, at least on certain occasions.

While when they went into battle, they kind of adapted and employed skills and tactics used in a hunt.

For example, like I read somewhere, the feigned retreat was adopted from what hungry wolves did to their bigger prey in winter. A lone wolf would provoke and draw a prey animal into charging out into an angry chase, the lone provoking wolf would then beat a retreat. The big prey would then be 'ambushed' by the rest of the wolf pack huddling nearby.

songtsen · Apr 19, 2022

Sephiroth said:
I guess the point is the wolf is not worshipped but rather respected and is the symbol of warrior. Not seen as a companion or anything like this.

This I could agree with. Wolves were seen as predators, to be feared and respected.

Magzhan · Apr 19, 2022

Dreamhunter said:
For example, like I read somewhere, the feigned retreat was adopted from what hungry wolves did to their bigger prey in winter. A lone wolf would provoke and draw a prey animal into charging out into an angry chase, the lone provoking wolf would then beat a retreat. The big prey would then be 'ambushed' by the rest of the wolf pack huddling nearby.

I'm not sure where it happened, but I once read that in Western Kazakhstan a wolf lured out two Alabai wolfhounds with a feigned flight and ate them. Later, hunters arrived and killed several wolves.

Sephiroth · Apr 19, 2022

Dreamhunter said:
Well, it just stands to reason. The wolf is a renown predator and pack hunter. The steppe nomads were also pack hunters, and also quite arguably predators of sorts. Well, at least on certain occasions.

Nah the wolf is not only seen as a predator, in some places it is seen as a protector apparently. And not to mention, for the Mongols at least, it is not any wolf their ancestor. It could mean many things.

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Why did Genghis Khan rate the lives of the Chinese so low?

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