Why exactly is the idea of a union between Austria and Germany so unpopular nowadays?

Stephy · Jul 31, 2014

Carolus said:
Prussia started in Prussia... and was later united with Brandenburg.

Xardas said:
No, Prussia started in Brandenburg (see my post above). Actual Prussia was only one of Brandenburg's territorial gains. Even capital city was in Berlin - in Brandenburg. The reason why Brandenburg-Prussia changed its name to just Prussia, was because Frederick III couldn't become King of Brandenburg, because rulers of Brandenburg were not entitled to be called Kings (they could only call themselves Margraves, which was a much lower rank - and Frederick wanted to have a more prestigious rank, such as King, so he had to become King of Prussia, see above).

Is my explanation correct?

What later became the country of Prussia (and went through all those stages of being a Teutonic Order, a Duchy, united with Brandenburg) started during the 3rd crusade in 1190 as the Hospital of St. Mary of the Germans in Jerusalem..

I think if we want to down the very long and complicated path of explaining the origins of the state of Prussia a new thread should be opened.

Xardas · Jul 31, 2014

Not really. There was no continuation between the Teutonic Order and the sovereign secular country of Prussia. And by the way, 3rd crusade was in 1190 while what later became the country of Prussia started in 1134, so over 50 years earlier (see my post above).

In 1618 Brandenburgian line of Hohenzollerns became also rulers in Ducal Prussia, but initially only as vassals of Poland (at that time only Brandenburg was independent, while Prussia was under Poland's sovereignity). In 1657 Ducal Prussia also became independent.

beorna · Jul 31, 2014

Terranovan said:
This is far closer to the truth.

Although there was always a strong german identity, it had more in common with the European identity we have now.

people of a similar part of the world, yet were in totally separate countries.

For sake of an argument its better to call people living in germany prussians, as thats basically where their entire national identity came from.
(very ironic, considering prussia started out in poland.)

building the prussian state was no small task and took alot of work to get things going.

A lot of germans would kick your ... if you call them Prussians

Stephy · Jul 31, 2014

Xardas said:
Not really. There was no continuation between the Teutonic Order and the sovereign country of Prussia. And by the way, 3rd crusade was in 1190 while what later became the country of Prussia started in 1134, over 50 years earlier (see my post above).

Yes there is.

One just as to look at the flag colours for that.

What were former Teutonic lands became Royal Prussia(western part of the lands) and the Duchy of Prussia(eastern part of the lands) after the Peace of Thorn in 1466.

In old texts and in Latin, the term Prut(h)enia refers alike to Ducal Prussia, its western neighbor Royal Prussia, and their common predecessor, Teutonic Prussia. The adjectival form of the name was "Prut(h)enic".

In 1701 the Duchy of Prussia was elevated to the Kingdom of Prussia.

Stephy · Jul 31, 2014

beorna said:
A lot of germans would kick your ... if you call them Prussians

This is true.

The further south the worse it gets

Xardas · Jul 31, 2014

Brandenburgian expansion 1134 - 1340:

Map: "German [Askanian Dynasty, House of Luxembourg and Teutonic Order] political expansion in 12th to 14th centuries":

Brandenburgian borders around 1320:

Brandenburgian borders in 1600 and expansion to 1688:

Xardas · Jul 31, 2014

What were former Teutonic lands became Royal Prussia(western part of the lands)

Royal Prussia was an integral part of Poland - check Marcin Kromer's 1578 book "Description of Poland", Chapter I - "Borders of Poland":

Polonia sive de situ, populis, moribus, magistratibus et Republica regni Polonici libri duo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Marcin Kromer, "Description of Poland" - Polish version (I also have a link to original Latin version if you want):

https://archive.org/details/martinicromerip00czergoog

Digital Library of Wielkopolska | Martini Cromeri Polonia sive De situ, populis, moribus, magistratibus et republica regni Polonici libri duo, 1578

Janusz Stankiewicz. Genealogia, przodkowie, badania genealogiczne, forum dyskusyjne

About the book from English Wikipedia:

Polonia sive de situ, populis, moribus, magistratibus et Republica regni Polonici libri duo is a book, first published in Cologne in 1577 in Latin. The author of the book is Marcin Kromer.

Title can be translated into English as Poland, about location, culture and offices of Polish Republic. First Polish translation was made in 1853 (Polska, czyli o położeniu, obyczajach, urzędach Rzeczypospolitej Królestwa Polskiego).

The book describes Poland in late 16th century (known at that time as the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth).

There have been several editions of this book with varying contents. Main chapters include:

I. Borders of Poland

II. The shape of surface

III. Mineral resources

IV. Hydrography

V. Climate, flora, fauna

VI. Towns and villages

Some editions were accompanied by with maps (drawn by Marcin Kromer himself) of:

Rivers of Poland

Cities of Poland

Province of Warmia

Stephy · Jul 31, 2014

Xardas I don't really understand what we are arguing about (and what you are trying to show me with your maps)

Are you saying that the Brandenburg is the predecessor of the Kingdom of Prussia and not the Duchy? Is that the problem?.

For me it is clear:

Lands of the State of the Teutonic Order became Royal Prussia and the Duchy of Prussia.
The last grandmaster of the Teutonic Knights Albert, became Albert of Prussia by converting the Teutonic state into a Protestant and hereditary realm, the Duchy of Prussia.

Brandenburg came to be part of the lands of the Hohenzollerns.

The Brandenburgian Hohenzollerns intermarried with the Hohenzollern branch that ruled the Duchy of Prussia which leads to the personal union of Brandenburg-Prussia.

Unlike Brandenburg the Duchy of Prussia was always outside the HRE which makes it possible that Frederick the III elevates himself to King in Prussia in 1701.

I don't understand how you can't see a connection between the State of the Teutonic oder all the way to the Kingdom of Prussia.

Without the Duchy of Prussia Brandenburg would have never been able to become a kingdom.

Edit: Saw your second reply after I posted this, reading now.

Stephy · Jul 31, 2014

Xardas said:
Royal Prussia was an integral part of Poland - check Marcin Kromer's 1578 book "Description of Poland", Chapter I - "Borders of Poland":

I never said it wasn't

Xardas · Jul 31, 2014

The Brandenburgian Hohenzollerns intermarried with the Hohenzollern branch that ruled the Duchy of Prussia which leads to the personal union of Brandenburg-Prussia.

No - the Prussian line of Hohenzollerns became extinct in 1618. As the result of Prussian line becoming extinct (no children), Brandenburgian line acquired their throne. It was a different family, same dynasty but different royal family (like for example Mazovian Piasts and Silesian Piasts).

There was no any intermarriage. The last of the Prussian line of Hohenzollerns was seriously mentally ill and had no children:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Frederick,_Duke_of_Prussia

Albert became Duke of Prussia after paying feudal homage to the King of Poland, Zygmunt August (Ducal Prussia was a fief of Poland), on July 19, 1569 in Lublin.[1] The homage was described by the Polish chronicler Jan Kochanowski in his work Proporzec ("Standard"). During the 1573 Polish election, Albert Frederick attempted to gain acceptance to the Polish senate but was opposed by the powerful Jan Zamoyski (later Grand Hetman of the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland) who feared the influence of Protestants in the Polish legislative body. Albert Frederick initially refused to recognize the election of Stefan Bathory and supported the candidacy of Maximilian of Hapsburg. However, at the Toruń sejm of October 1576 he gave his support to the new monarch.

As the great grandson of the Polish king Casimir IV Jagiellon, and as a Duke in Prussia who was fluent in Polish, Albert Frederick was seriously considered for a time as a possible candidate for the Polish throne. He particularly enjoyed the support of Polish Lutherans.

In 1572 he began to exhibit signs of mental disorder. In early 1578, the regency was taken over by his cousin, George Frederick of Brandenburg-Kulmbach (1539–1603). After George Frederick's death in 1603, the Polish king Sigismund III Vasa appointed Joachim Frederick as regent in 1605, and permitted his son, John Sigismund, to succeed him in 1611. The latter became Duke of Prussia after Albert Frederick's death in 1618.[2]

Carolus · Jul 31, 2014

beorna said:
A lot of germans would kick your ... if you call them Prussians

Stephy said:
This is true.

The further south the worse it gets

Exactly but you must also admit that the southern Germans often call the northern Germans (north of the river Main) "Prussians".

(again) coming back to the topic: afaik it's highly politically incorrect to regard oneself as "German" rather as "Austrian" in Austria.

beorna · Jul 31, 2014

I am not sure, but I am probably the only non-prussian here, who would not be offended to be called Prussian

Stephy · Jul 31, 2014

beorna said:
I am not sure, but I am probably the only non-prussian here, who would not be offended to be called Prussian

I moved from Dortmund to Berlin and am a fan of Borussia Dortmund.

What can I say

Stephy · Jul 31, 2014

Xardas said:
No - the Prussian line of Hohenzollerns became extinct in 1618. As the result of Prussian line becoming extinct (no children), Brandenburgian line acquired their throne. It was a different family, same dynasty but different family (like for example Mazovian Piasts and Silesian Piasts).

Are we arguing about the term intermarriage now?

It was a different family of the same house. So an intermarriage in the ouse of Hohenzollern.
And yes the marriage took place because the ruling line of the Duchy of Prussia was going to go extinct we are in agreement.
Don't know what that has to do with anything but we are in agreement.

I still don't understand what your point is and don't want to go off topic any further.
This discussion ends here for me unless you open a new thread on the topic.

Carolus · Jul 31, 2014

beorna said:
I am not sure, but I am probably the only non-prussian here, who would not be offended to be called Prussian

I would not feel offended as long as it is not a Bavarian who would call me Prussian.

Xardas · Jul 31, 2014

beorna said:
I am probably the only non-prussian here, who would not be offended to be called Prussian

And who is Prussian today? People born in Prussia before 1947? Is it possible to be Prussian today?

Those in Kaliningrad Oblast are probably P-Russians.

Stephy, if we assume that Prussia started from the Teutonic Order and not from Brandenburg, then Terranovan was actually correct that Prussia started in Poland (and not in Prussia) because the Teutonic Order at the beginning established its State in Chelmno Land, which was Polish territory granted to the Teutonic Order by Duke Konrad Mazowiecki. But you are right that it is time to end this OT discussion in this thread.

holoow · Jul 31, 2014

Xardas said:
And who is Prussian today?

Maybe people who have 'Preussische gesinnung'.

Stephy · Jul 31, 2014

Xardas said:
And who is Prussian today? People born in Prussia before 1947? Is it possible to be Prussian today?

Yes, people born on Prussian territory before it was dissolved.
There are no Prussians around today.

Those in Kaliningrad Oblast are probably P-Russians.

They are Russian unless they lived there before 47 did not flee/were deported.

holoow said:
Maybe people who have 'Preussische gesinnung'.

I fear I'm opening a can of worms but what would that be?

Xardas · Jul 31, 2014

Yes, people born on Prussian territory before it was dissolved.
There are no Prussians around today.

So my great-uncle was Prussian until 1985 (when he died). Born on Prussian territory.

They are Russian

One letter.

Stephy · Jul 31, 2014

Xardas said:
One letter.

In English, yes.

In German? No.
In Polish neither as to my knowledge

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Why exactly is the idea of a union between Austria and Germany so unpopular nowadays?

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