Why is North Indian Buddhist Architecture being called Islamic?

Vinnie · Aug 7, 2014

People like you who like to attribute many Indian inventions to foreign cultures, seem to have a little bit of low self esteem..

http://answerparty.com/question/answer/what-is-a-stupa

What is a stupa?

Answer:
Stupa :A dome-shaped monument, used to house Buddhist relics or to commemorate significant facts of Buddhism or Jainism.

civfanatic · Aug 7, 2014

Vinnie said:
Apparently you don't know the difference between Rajput architecture and Islamic, it was in fact the mughal to include the Rajasthani elements such as the chhatris and the "curly" arches, nothing more nothing less. Google some pre-Islamic buildings from Rajasthan before you talk some more nonsense.

Please show me these pre-Islamic buildings of Rajasthan with domes and typical arches that were copied by Mughals. Chhatris are not domes just like stupas are not domes. A dome-shaped structure is not the same as a dome.

Vinnie · Aug 7, 2014

How about you use Google's search option. Then click on photos.

Ajanbahu · Aug 7, 2014

Completely wrong. We see heavy influence of Perso-Islamic architecture even in deep south which was ruled by independent kings for most of medieval period. Sultans of Vijayanagar and Nayakas of Madurai adopted Persianized architecture even when they were completely independent.

There is hardly a single major city of medieval India which was not influenced by Perso-Islamic architecture. Jaipur which you mentioned is full of structures inspired by Perso-Islamic architectural tradition:

The point was not that every area that was under Muslims only had Islamic architecture, the point was reason for adoption was heavy military dominance of muslims. Your point is that Islamic architecture was adopted because of superiority, but this is not the case we see in Rajasthan. Before Mughals, there is no impact and look at architecture of Mewar during Kumbha, if Indians adopted it due to superiority, likes of Kumbha would have done that but they did not. Same with Vijaynagar, even their aqueduct did not know arches( despite knowing Muslims for centuries).
Jaipur was independent but was vassal of Mughals, Sawai Jai Singh could read and write Persian, however, likes of Maldeo or Sanga did not take interest in Persian so claim that Jai Singh adopted Islamic architecture due to latter's superiority is nonsense, it was cultural imitation on part of some weak Hindu rulers nothing more.

Gajapati kings did not adopt Islamic architecture at all because they were confidant of their own power, once Orissa came under Muslims, we see many Islamic structures. As for Vijaynagar, please show me some great impact( not one two isolated buildings easily explained by Turk presence) of Islamic architecture on city itself.

As far as Jaipur was concerned my point was about planning of city, read more on it, in case you argue that it was due to Islamic traditions of city planning which would need us to show any such planned city of Muslims in India.

Vinnie · Aug 7, 2014

civfanatic said:
Please show me these pre-Islamic buildings of Rajasthan with domes and typical arches that were copied by Mughals. Chhatris are not domes just like stupas are not domes. A dome-shaped structure is not the same as a dome.

A stupa is a dome. What else? You dumb?

14 World Famous Domes | Touropia

12Great Stupa at Sanchi

The Great Stupa at Sanchi is the oldest stone structure in India and was originally commissioned by emperor Ashoka the Great in the 3rd century BC. Its core was a simple brick dome, supposedly built over the relics of the Buddha. The stupa was expanded a century later with stone slabs to almost twice its original size. The dome was flattened near the top and crowned by three superimposed parasols within a square railing. - See more at: 14 World Famous Domes | Touropia

12Great Stupa at Sanchi

Vinnie · Aug 7, 2014

Chhatri's are domes, originating in Rajasthan. Merely copied by mughals/ muslims.

Rashtrapati Bhavan Chhatri

tornada · Aug 7, 2014

Vinnie said:
Chhatri's are domes, originating in Rajasthan. Merely copied by mughals/ muslims.

Rashtrapati Bhavan Chhatri

No offense, but the Rashtrapati bhavan dome has nothing to do with Rajput domes. That's classic English Architecture, no different from the domes in England's governmental buildings. It was designed to not be Indian, the building was designed by a Britisher to be the seat of British government in India.

tornada · Aug 7, 2014

Vinnie said:
A stupa is a dome. What else? You dumb?

14 World Famous Domes | Touropia

12Great Stupa at Sanchi

The Great Stupa at Sanchi is the oldest stone structure in India and was originally commissioned by emperor Ashoka the Great in the 3rd century BC. Its core was a simple brick dome, supposedly built over the relics of the Buddha. The stupa was expanded a century later with stone slabs to almost twice its original size. The dome was flattened near the top and crowned by three superimposed parasols within a square railing. - See more at: 14 World Famous Domes | Touropia

12Great Stupa at Sanchi

Yes, but a Stupa is not a true dome, in that it is not a free standing hollow structure from within. Its merely dome like in its construction

pitris · Aug 7, 2014

tornada said:
No offense, but the Rashtrapati bhavan dome has nothing to do with Rajput domes. That's classic English Architecture, no different from the domes in England's governmental buildings. It was designed to not be Indian, the building was designed by a Britisher to be the seat of British government in India.

The core is in English style but there are style elements including Chatris in the overall design as per the Wiki and apparent visually:

Rashtrapati Bhavan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@Vinnie: The question from civfanatic is fair. Are there images you are aware of that are pre-Islamic? Whatever I seen till now overlaps with the Islamic time periods. As per wiki:

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chhatri]Chhatri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Chhatris are basic element of Hindu as well as Mughal architecture. The term "chhatri" (Hindi: छतरी) means umbrella or canopy

Indo-Saracenic Revival architecture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jinit · Aug 7, 2014

pitris said:
I maybe misunderstanding here but I thought the ancient Persians given their interaction with the older Babylonian, and Greek civilizations were used to building large scale stone masonry work - e.g. Persepolis:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/2009-11-24_Persepolis_02.jpg

This one around the same time period of the Quwwat Al Islam mosque:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Kharaghan.jpg

Medieval Persian architecture heavily used the cheap material like the bricks, rubble and furnished the monuments with the glazing styles. (actually the towers in the second picture cited by you are brick structures and not that of stones). In contrast the Indian architecture heavily employed stone masonry both in the construction and furnishing. The Quwaat Al Islam mosque was constructed by the native builders with the few instructions from the ruling elite regarding the overall shape and as such. A contemporary Persian builder with his supposedly superior techniques would have completely failed to achieve the same result as that of the Indian builder. (He would have probably made the mosque with the same external appearance though but not using the same construction method). Infact earliest outside influence on the Indo Islamic architecture came from the Konya because of the same reason that they were also expert in stone masonry. Without the legacy of the Pre Islamic architecture the magnificent Indo Islamic monuments that we see today wouldn't have been possible. Further more many of the techniques and designs used in the Indo Islamic architecture were actually devised in the subcontinent even if by under the rule of Persianized Muslims. I am not sure if they can be considered as part of Persian architecture.

But if orthodox Hinduism started sidelining the Buddhists influence, maybe they bought back the older techniques back, but still incorporating Buddhist influences?

There were Hindu temples and Buddhist temples and Jain temples. But the same can't be said for the architecture. Any building from the same area from the same time period whether Hindu or Buddhist or Jain followed the same construction methods and techniques. There wasn't any Buddhist influence of Hindu influence on the architecture. The terms like Buddhist architecture are the product of the same people who devised the Hindu, Muslim and British classification of Indian history. Mahabodhi temple (before restoration) had true arch and so does the Hindu temple of Bhitargaon.

Jinit · Aug 7, 2014

pitris said:
The core is in English style but there are style elements including Chatris in the overall design as per the Wiki and apparent visually:

Rashtrapati Bhavan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@Vinnie: The question from civfanatic is fair. Are there images you are aware of that are pre-Islamic? Whatever I seen till now overlaps with the Islamic time periods. As per wiki:

Chhatri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indo-Saracenic Revival architecture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It isn't the English style but actually Indo Gothic style and there was a very specific political intention for using that style. Gothic architecture was actually popular in Britain herself during the same time period.

As for the Chhatri, it has the Indian origin, whether one attributes it to the Mughals or to the Rajputs. The word Chhatri itself points in the same direction.

Jinit · Aug 7, 2014

tornada said:
No offense, but the Rashtrapati bhavan dome has nothing to do with Rajput domes. That's classic English Architecture, no different from the domes in England's governmental buildings. It was designed to not be Indian, the building was designed by a Britisher to be the seat of British government in India.

Errr.... Its not classic English architecture. Not at all... Further more factually speaking it is the North block/South block building and not the Rashtrapati Bhavan.

The dome of Rashtrapati bhavan if you have noticed is actually inspired by the Buddhist stupa (plus combination of chatri). Not that I am saying that Stupa is actually a dome but it is certainly inspired by it. (by the way in some cases Stupas are actually more than the heap of the bricks and clay but its irrelevant in the present context)

Vinnie · Aug 7, 2014

Chhatri is Rajasthani in origin. And yes it is a type of dome.

Jinit · Aug 7, 2014

Here's the dome of the Rashtrapati Bhavan. Compare it with the Sanchi stupa.

Infact this memorial on the near by cross road is supposedly also inspired by some pavalion at Mahaballipuram. Although it requires further confirmation.

pitris · Aug 7, 2014

Jinit said:
Medieval Persian architecture heavily used the cheap material like the bricks, rubble and furnished the monuments with the glazing styles. (actually the towers in the second picture cited by you are brick structures and not that of stones). In contrast the Indian architecture heavily employed stone masonry both in the construction and furnishing. The Quwaat Al Islam mosque was constructed by the native builders with the few instructions from the ruling elite regarding the overall shape and as such. A contemporary Persian builder with his supposedly superior techniques would have completely failed to achieve the same result as that of the Indian builder. (He would have probably made the mosque with the same external appearance though but not using the same construction method). Infact earliest outside influence on the Indo Islamic architecture came from the Konya because of the same reason that they were also expert in stone masonry. Without the legacy of the Pre Islamic architecture the magnificent Indo Islamic monuments that we see today wouldn't have been possible. Further more many of the techniques and designs used in the Indo Islamic architecture were actually devised in the subcontinent even if by under the rule of Persianized Muslims. I am not sure if they can be considered as part of Persian architecture.

What about earlier periods like Persepolis? Did the Persians loose the stone masonry skills by the Islamic periods?

Regarding the skills of the Indian architects and stone masonry, it is well known and I believe Timur took some of them back to build his city in Samarkhand, and probably even true in earlier periods (e.g. Baghdad ) but I can't recall if it is well attested.

Not to mention the various sculptures in hard sandstone and granite with amazing details compared to marble in the Greek and Roman times which is much easier to work with.

Jinit said:
There were Hindu temples and Buddhist temples and Jain temples. But the same can't be said for the architecture. Any building from the same area from the same time period whether Hindu or Buddhist or Jain followed the same construction methods and techniques. There wasn't any Buddhist influence of Hindu influence on the architecture. The terms like Buddhist architecture are the product of the same people who devised the Hindu, Muslim and British classification of Indian history. Mahabodhi temple (before restoration) had true arch and so does the Hindu temple of Bhitargaon.

I thought there were distinctive styles in their respective temples, esp. the 'dome like' and other circular themes which seemed more prevalent in Buddhist structures (but not present in Hindu temples inthe earlier periods) , and hence my original question in these matters, and the related speculations.

Also looking at the examples you gave, Mahabodhi which is a Buddhist temple, it is not clear if the true arch came during the restoration period, and probably not part of the original design? The Hindu temple in Bhitargaon seems like the classic square-based plan.

Usually change in styles or design motifs indicate some major events - new contacts, exchange of ideas and so forth.

Vinnie · Aug 7, 2014

The Sanchi stupa is rebuilt in China.

Indian-style Buddhist Temple in Luoyang, China - Architecture Design ? Residential Building, Commercial Building, Public Buildings, Urban Design on Architecture Design News and Pictures ? topboxdesign.com

Indian-style-Buddhist-Temple-by-Akshaya-Jain-Raka-Chakravarty-588x480.jpg

pitris · Aug 7, 2014

Jinit said:
Here's the dome of the Rashtrapati Bhavan. Compare it with the Sanchi stupa.

Infact this memorial on the near by cross road is supposedly also inspired by some pavalion at Mahaballipuram. Although it requires further confirmation.

On the dome, as per wiki:

Lutyens stated that the dome is inspired by the Pantheon of Rome.[7] .

Though I can see some resemblance to the Sanchi Stupa esp. the lattice work below the dome.

An independent origin of the design motif cannot be ruled out - as per wiki:

The dome was flattened near the top and crowned by three superimposed parasols within a square railing. With its many tiers it was a symbol of the dharma, the Wheel of the Law. The dome was set on a high circular drum meant for circumambulation, which could be accessed via a double staircase.

Given the non overlapping time periods involved in both the Stupa and the Pantheon, it doesn't suggest any exchange of ideas.

The Buddhist 'the Wheel of the Law' might be the inspiring motif.

tornada · Aug 7, 2014

Jinit said:
It isn't the English style but actually Indo Gothic style and there was a very specific political intention for using that style. Gothic architecture was actually popular in Britain herself during the same time period.

As for the Chhatri, it has the Indian origin, whether one attributes it to the Mughals or to the Rajputs. The word Chhatri itself points in the same direction.

Secretariat Building, New Delhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As pointed out above, the dome of Rashtrapati Bhawan, as well as the Secretariat building and generic layout are in line with the standard "Capitol" design favored for Central Administrative buildings.

The buildings do indeed include indian influences as well, but AFAIK the chhatris in question were regarded as Islamic rather than Rajput. I've not really heard of these proper domes being pre-Islamic in India, is there any evidence?

Vinnie · Aug 7, 2014

Chhatris are a Rajasthani invention, whether other cultures changed the style a bit or not. It's of Indian and not muslim origin. The dome of the secretariat building has the shape of a stupa indeed.

Vinnie · Aug 7, 2014

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