Why is the population of England so big

Exactly, Paddyboy. I've not got anything against Englishmen being quietly patriotic, but that's not the usual form it takes. No-one has done more to screw England up than.....the English. Their modern form of patriotism is (a) a rejection of pretty much everyone else and (b) they blame their woes on what are, after all, a neglected minority.

As I've said before, you reap what you sow. You don't like the society we live in? Then don't vote for governments that promote it- and that's them all since 1979.

The England I saw the tail end of- the England that mattered to me- was not perfect. It wasn't John Major's vision of old ...... cycling to church past cricket matches, it was more like Denis Healey's portrayal of the North as I saw it. There were no flag wavers then, nor were they guilty about a past they weren't responsible for. The main thing in the society I was brought up in was to be fair and decent.

We're a very far cry from that now, and we can't blame the "Celtic" nations, because they suffered a similar decline, albeit plainly not as disastrous, (in that they still have some decency and fair play left) and they're a minority and from parts of the UK that don't count for much in the eyes of the ruling classes. We can't blame other immigrants entirely, because they're a minority, too.

As George Galloway said after the summer riots, about kids pillaging shops and stealing "consumer goods": "I wonder where they got that idea from, that you ARE what shoes you have on your feet, what car you drive, how much money you have?".

The English I remember bear little resemblance to today's hysterical, hypocritical, selfish English people. Who appear to take great delight in watching others suffer and who really, really, believe that they're better than anyone else. Watch "reality TV" for 10 minutes, and you ought to see what I mean. This reflects badly on both contestant and viewer.

I can't be proud to be a member of a country like that. Where 1 in 4 kids are born into poverty, where old people are made to live like they are. Where privilege is condoned and even applauded, and on the spurious basis that they "give us jobs" (carefully forgetting that they do it purely for profit, not out of any form of altruism). I have seen first hand what was done in England (and in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland), where an entire class was intentionally destroyed, and those who managed to climb out of the pit have been conditioned to believe that they're middle class (they're nothing of the sort), and rest have suffered- what was the contemporary phrase? - Oh yes: "Managed decline".

30 years ago, it wasn't the St.George's cross they waved at sporting events, it was the Union Flag.

How strange that people should start waving the flag now, when England and the English are practically unrecognisable to anyone from more than 30 years ago.

What is there to wave flags about now ?

Vladd said:

So why is it OK for Scots Welsh and Irish, in fact it seems any nation in the world to be nationalistic but if an Englishman shows any sign of it he is a Little Englander racist, I suppose it is the English version of White Guilt.

Click to expand...

There is all the difference in the world between wanting to preserve your own country's culture and wanting to assist your own ruling class to rob others, surely? One of the major problems is that right-wing people living in what is technically 'England' use that term to mean 'Britain' and don't seem to have much in common with other such 'Englishmen' but a violent urge to put others down - just as on the other hand, of course, the majority of the people are decent and sensible, though brainwashed, and are just not yet up to sweeping away the thieves and liars.

Black Dog said:

". 30 years ago, it wasn't the St.George's cross they waved at sporting events, it was the Union Flag.

How strange that people should start waving the flag now, when England and the English are practically unrecognisable to anyone from more than 30 years ago.

What is there to wave flags about now ?

Click to expand...

30 years ago the English were criticised, rightly, for waving the Union Jack when supporting England as it is the flag of the United Kingdom, now after reclaiming the Cross of St George from the National front etc. the mainstream English wave it when supporting England. Whats wrong with that?

Vladd said:

30 years ago the English were criticised, rightly, for waving the Union Jack when supporting England as it is the flag of the United Kingdom, now after reclaiming the Cross of St George from the National front etc. the mainstream English wave it when supporting England. Whats wrong with that?

Click to expand...

Only that it is heavily associated with National Front types. It needs reclaiming: it is preferable to the unionist flag in my opinion, though that one does tend to recall happier times.

It's ridiculous to say that the national front like the English flag so the English should not use it! If you are not English, your opinion on whether the English should wave their flag is hardly relevant.

Statistics show that the population of England is big as a result of all the people living in it. Trust me, I've studied Maths.

Statistics show that the population of England is big as a result of all the people living in it. Trust me, I've studied Maths.

Click to expand...

I bow to your plainly superior, incontestable thinking

The population isn't that large. Don't overestimate yourself.

Black Dog said:

Spending money we don't have? New aircraft carriers, new (American) aircraft to go on these carriers, new missile systems, huge tax cuts for the very wealthy, utter lack of resolve to stop the endemic tax dodges of the wealthy, pointless and highly expensive wars, huge donations to the IMF and a whole heap of other things hardly indicative of a nation on its uppers? Get real: Thatcher encouraged debt as a way of life, every government since has been in debt (and quite a few before).

"Austerity" means "pay your taxes, work longer for less and put up with less services" whilst the money allegedly saved goes into financing the next war and bailouts for the banks.

Click to expand...

The hugely expensive aircraft carriers were set up by the Labour government in such a way as to make cancelling them as expensive if not more so than building them. Also, note how this was done to ensure votes in the Scottish central belt, not South East England. Likewise, the large expensive Olympic project (which is truly pointless, it isn't even regenerating anything, just bulldozing pre-existing businesses) was set up by the Labour government as was the abolishment of the 10p tax rate (not giving to the rich but taking from the poor). Likewise the expensive wars were started by the Labour government and you can't just "pull out" if you expect to still be at least spoken to by other governments.

Whether that was a true Labour government or not is another matter. The false working class being the electoral decider is made clear by talk of Mondeo Man and other crude terms which basically mean (like you have said) working class person living on credit in an unsustainable way. Likewise it is rather unfair to entirely blame the English for this. Ultimately the Scots were stupid enough to vote for Blair, Brown, Darling etc. in their constituencies so obviously they must represent these Scots to some extent? Or at least said Scots must believe so. In fact I see Little Englanders as the least of the problem, if people actually voted as Britons not for their own petty regional interests then we may very well be in a better place. And yes, Wales and Scotland are regions, they have no more right to a Parliament than the North East does. Decide for yourself how you want to interpret that.

PADDYBOY said:

Maybe I should make a similar thread about China.

Anyway, if you consider the size of England, the population is massive. Sardines in a can massive..

Click to expand...

True. But then again look at the Netherlands. Or Singapore. Massive populations in proportion to their small sizes.

Of course Japan is much, much worse.

PADDYBOY said:

Maybe I should make a similar thread about China.

Anyway, if you consider the size of England, the population is massive. Sardines in a can massive..

Click to expand...

Holland is similarly highly populated and I'd guess England and Holland may share many common factors in this.

PADDYBOY said:

Okay, maybe I should start a thread about Holland If I recall correctly, Holland has a population of 20 million and England 50 million. Not sure what the percentage of ground cover is tho ?

Click to expand...

All you have to look at is population density statistics and you'll see the difference. A fairly large difference indeed.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_population_density]List of sovereign states and dependent territories by population density - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Nikator: I'm sure you've realised, but I am definitely no fan of New Labour. Some would argue that the "Torification" of the Labour party was inevitable, but nevertheless, it's a huge betrayal of working people.

The reason the Tories spent so much time out of power was that New Labour had stolen their thunder: what one would expect a Tory party to do, Labour did. Those damned carriers and Trident are case in point. The future? Lots of pointless wars with little gain for Britain, if one wants to look at it in mercenary terms. 10 years in Afghanistan, and all we get is increased risk of terrorism and cheap heroin.

Labour redistributed wealth upwards just as much as the Tories did. Thatcher never once criticised Blair, and that's because what they did was her work, albeit dressed up a little more cleverly.

I agree absolutely that the Olympics (coupled with the jubilee) are a huge waste of money. Like royal weddings etc, such events scare tourists off more than anything else, and any jobs the Olympics create will be, by definition, shortlived.

Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland don't see themselves as regions. They believe themselves to be neglected by the London Government, and I see much of the North of England in the same way. They want to preserve what's left of their cultures and languages and don't believe that a London based government will do that.

Scotland, at one time, had more Pandas than it did Tory MPs. Wales is no Tory stronghold either, and this voting pattern goes way back. The "Celtic" countries have realised that having the same Government as England effectively dooms them to right of centre governments. They can vote how they want, but their votes are submerged amongst the many more English right of centre votes.

Yes, some in the "Celtic" countries will vote for anything that's not English, but we've seen from this thread that the English are just as petulant when they believe they've been done wrong to.

If one believes in democracy, then it is plain that it must be primarily local. People care more about local issues- sad, but true. The ruling classes don't want this.