Why was the Trojan War so important?

Maki said:

Because my original question was about the real Trojan War. I asked why was this conflict so important that ancient Greeks chose it as a basis for the Epic Cycle poems.

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I would guess the following reasons:

1) Timing. Wars happened for time immemorial, but the Trojan war happened shortly before the start of an oral tradition that spanned greece. Earlier wars would be forgotten, and later wars would have to displace this one for primacy.
2) Scale. If we take the epics at face value, it seemed to be much larger than other wars of that period in terms of men, ships, and number of cities contributing.
3) Us vs Them. Because of this scale, it had the whole of Greece more or less on the same side. This makes it easier for it to be part of a shared heritage and communal culture.
4) Self supporting. It's entirely possible that the Trojan war wasn't that big of a deal when it happened. But the more the story was told, the more important it became, which in turn means it was told more. So points 1-3 provide the trigger, and then it just grew out of itself.

Caesarmagnus said:

Why is this being discussed on a forum for actual ancient history? We might as well discuss whether Hercules was really stronger than Hades.

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Because, as has been stated, the Trojan War story was *immensely* important to the Archaic and Classical Greeks. To them it absolutely WAS history, very much the foundation of their culture.

Also, the story is not contradicted by the historical evidence that we have. There are clear signs of warfare in more or less the right time and place, and the names of some of the characters are found in other records. Obviously none of that is anywhere near conclusive, but that's history, eh?

Matthew

Matthew Amt said:

Because, as has been stated, the Trojan War story was *immensely* important to the Archaic and Classical Greeks. To them it absolutely WAS history, very much the foundation of their culture.

Also, the story is not contradicted by the historical evidence that we have. There are clear signs of warfare in more or less the right time and place, and the names of some of the characters are found in other records. Obviously none of that is anywhere near conclusive, but that's history, eh?

Matthew

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The story of gods flying around the battlefield of Troy isn't contradicted by any historical evidence? It's an inherently fictional mythology, that doesn't belong on this board. Maybe if the discussion was about actual history affected by it, but that's not what the thread OP is about, and nobody here is discussing that. It's being discussed like an event that happened, when we have no evidence it did (and the story itself inherently lends itself to the idea it didn't, because it's a clear myth, whose central protagonists, etc, are all demi-gods, etc, with magic and monsters, etc).

Caesarmagnus said:

The story of gods flying around the battlefield of Troy isn't contradicted by any historical evidence? It's an inherently fictional mythology, that doesn't belong on this board. Maybe if the discussion was about actual history affected by it, but that's not what the thread OP is about, and nobody here is discussing that. It's being discussed like an event that happened, when we have no evidence it did (and the story itself inherently lends itself to the idea it didn't, because it's a clear myth, whose central protagonists, etc, are all demi-gods, etc, with magic and monsters, etc).

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The OP is asking why was the Trojan War so important to Greek culture. The reality of Trojan war is at most a secondary point. The aspects of the Trojan war that are backed up with archeology provide a possible avenue for answers, but not the only ones. As an analogy: It's perfectly valid to discuss the impact of Christianity on the Roman world without having to believe in every miracle described in the Bible. And that is a perfectly valid historical topic to discuss.

And anyway, you are not a moderator here to police this forum. If the thread doesn't interest you, don't open it. If you think it breaks forum rules, report it. If you have some of your endless bitter anger to rage, find some old thread with Duke Valentino and battle it out away from the rest of us. Please don't feel obliged to spread your personal brand of toxicity absolutely everywhere.

I'll comment on whatever threads I like. The OP is not about why the story was so important to Greek culture, he is asking about why the war was so important. The problem is there's really no hard evidence for the war even happening, any more than there is evidence for anything else in Greek mythology being real. If the OP had said "did the war actually happen?" then this thread would fit the parameters of the board. Instead his OP requests that "we assume the war happened", and then asks us to discuss it. As I said, the problem is there's no real evidence it happened in any way that resembled the Iliad (or that it happened at all). It's a question of mythology or literature or anthropology at best. This is a forum for ancient history; stuff that actually happened. It would be like me posting a thread that opened with "assume the Christian mythology is real... why didn't the pharaoh let the Jews go before the Passover?" Or, as I posed earlier, "would Hercules beat Hades in a fight?"

Caesarmagnus said:

The story of gods flying around the battlefield of Troy isn't contradicted by any historical evidence?...

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Ha, sorry, I meant to stick in a disclaimer for those bits! Though strictly speaking, No, gods flying around is NOT contradicted by the evidence we have! Everyone back then thought it happened all the time, so who are we to be so dismissive? Heck, most of the perfectly acceptable documents and letters from Egypt and the Hittites are full of supernatural things, such as a pharaoh turning winter into spring so that his foreign bride-to-be would have a more pleasant journey to his homeland. No one tries to throw out all Egyptian literary evidence because of this, nor claim that Egypt didn't exist, etc.

Otherwise, what Olleus said. I just don't see how jumping in to yell at everyone and complain that the topic is pointless and non-historical is useful or productive. But if it's your right to do that, then it's our right to discuss the topic as *we* see fit. Why make more frustration for yourself?

Matthew

Maki said:

We do have actual evidence that Troy VIIA was destroyed in a war, bodies were found in the ruins and arrowheads embedded in the walls. The thing is we cannot conclusively link the destruction of Troy to the Mycenaens. However, we do know that the Hittites and the Ahhiyawa went to war over Wilusa (Troy) from the Tawalagawa letter. So we know Mycenean Greeks were involved in a conflict around Troy.

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I think the Iliad is a bardic synthesis of various events from different periods, woven into an epic tale.

Maki said:

So, the Trojan War is one of the most important events in Greek mythology. Many works (most notably the Illiad) talk about this war or its aftermath. Of course, classical Greeks inherited their fascination with this war from the Illiad, but it's clear that there was fascination with the Trojan War even before, otherwise the Illiad wouldn't have been written or would have described some other war. I have read that there is a possibility that the Trojan War actually happened, though of course much different than described in the Illiad. So, assuming that the war was real, what motivated the writer(s) of the Illiad to craft such a complex narrative around this conflict for an Anatolian city? Why was the Trojan War so important to the Homeric-era Greeks that they transformed it into this great conflict, a conflict in which gods intervened on both sides, a war in which heroes expected to find everlasting glory? What was the significance of the Trojan War?

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So when it comes to the stories for the Ancient Greek, the myths, are centered on the gods and rituals and the Greeks considered them as truth. Legends, like that of the Trojan War, are quasi-historical, where the actual events did happen, and the heroes and heroines actually lived, but everything else, purely exaggerations for the sole purpose of entertainment. Folklore is absolutely fictional and often has a repeating theme, and is used to teach (such as the long delayed victory over enemies, or the lost person (such as Odysseus) found only after a long and exciting adventure). It can be assumed that the Trojan War did in fact happen, did it happen as depicted in literature, most likely not, were some of the details true, probably. Until there is definite proof one way or the other, assumptions can be made but the validity can still be considered questionable.

Because someone wrote a poem about it.

betgo said:

Because someone wrote a poem about it.

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Or a bed time story

It was important because of the power of Homer's writing. Certain stories become important because of the writer rather than the actual significance of the events they write about.

A powerful writer such as Homer or Shakespeare can spin a good tale. Shakespeare has hugely influenced our view of historic figures such as Richard III or Margaret of Anjou or Richard of York. Even though some of what he wrote was highly dramatized or even actually fictitious, it has remained embedded in our cultural consciousness - simply because his version is so memorable.

Caesarmagnus said:

the problem is there's no real evidence it happened in any way that resembled the Iliad (or that it happened at all)

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Some kind of war involving ancient Troy did happen (several different wars in fact). What we know of the real ancient Troy from around the time that Homer's tale is most likely to relate:

- Its people were native Anatolians.
- They spoke Luwian (a language which was spoken across a wide area of Anatolia)
- They certainly traded with Mycenaean Greece
- They had relations with the Hittites (and were within the Hittite sphere of influence).
- There was some kind of military conflict with the Hittites (although this was resolved in a peace treaty as the Hittites had diplomatic relations with them after this war).
- It is referenced in Egyptian and Hittite records (the Hittites refer to it as the kingdom of Wilusa) (in fact in the original Homeric Greek it may well have been called Wilion rather than Troy). It (or its people) may also have been referred to as Tursha or Teresh (by Egyptians) or Taruisa (by Hittites) ... or Trojan.
- "Priam" does sound similar to a genuine Luwian word compound that may have been a name - Priimuua (which means "exceptionally courageous").
- Troy VI was a major trade centre & flourished from c.1800 BC until 1300 BC
- Its walls were brought down by an earthquake in 1300 BC but it was rebuilt. There is little evidence of any siege.
- Troy VIIa that replaced it was more heavily fortified and stood for a century before it too was destroyed around 1180 BC.
- In its heyday Troy VI/VII had a population of around 5000-10000 people
- At some point Mycenaeans did attack the coastal area in that region (precise date unknown). However they were most likely active during the early period of Troy VIIa's history.
- Troy VIIa was actually destroyed in a siege in around 1180BC. However, Mycenaean Greece was in a state of collapse itself from 1250 BC onwards and Troy VIIa outlasted the major Mycenaean cities. It is more likely that Troy VIIa was destroyed by the same wars that accompanied the collapse of the Hittites; so it may have been destroyed by Kaskians, Phrygians or Bryges. (interestingly cultures that later emerged from the Kaskian people would later gain a reputation for being able to cast large statues out of bronze - an eight century example of which supposedly weighed 1.8 tons).
- The ethic peoples who inhabited Troy may have migrated eastwards - as their culture survived these wars and effectively founded the Neo-Hittite Kingdoms of south eastern Anatolian and north western Syria (they used the same language and writing system) that were to flourish from 1160 BC until 900-800 BC when they were absorbed by the Assyrians.

Didn't Mycenaeans just before their end swept western Asia Minor cost and established present as far as Cyprus? Maybe there was not one specific war but series of wars and after centuries it combined into one epic story.

Darth Trajan said:

Didn't Mycenaeans just before their end swept western Asia Minor cost and established present as far as Cyprus? Maybe there was not one specific war but series of wars and after centuries it combined into one epic story.

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The Luwians peoples would certainly have experienced raids from the Mycenaeans & it is likely that Troy VIIa was more heavily fortified to defend against Mycenaean raiding (or the threat of it). Troy VIIa definitely traded with the Mycenaeans & made pottery imitating the Mycenaean style.

betgo said:

Because someone wrote a poem about it.

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This is the big one. Roncesvalles would have been a barely remembered skirmish if not for the Song of Roland.

The Trojan War was undoubtedly an important event (if we take the basic core of Homer’s account as factual). But I do think that the reason it became so popular and famous and such a landmark event in Greek legend is primarily because of Homer’s poem about the event.

It’s a bit like Merlin. The historical figure behind the figure of Merlin was a bard in sixth century Britain named Myrddin. He doesn’t seem to have been exceptionally famous in his own time - he isn’t mentioned as one of the most famous bards in Britain in the Historia Brittonum, for example. But he became extremely famous because he was included in the tales of King Arthur.

I believe that a similar principle underlies why the Trojan War became so famous and important to the later Greeks.

Because it was the largest and most striking event for the entire Aegean world before the Late Bronze Age collapse. We have only isolated fragmentary information about a certain military conflict between the forces that the Hittites called Akhiyava and Vilusa (Troasa).

Some palace centers survived the end of the Bronze Age and retained some (unfortunately) distorted information in their oral poetry. For a very long time, there were no such global events in Greece.

Another important point. The ancestors of the inhabitants of almost any region in Greece, Crete and Asia Minor were involved in these events. The story of the Trojan War united and was at the same time interesting everywhere. For itinerant poets, this was very important.