Will China become a soft power giant?

rehabnonono · Jun 15, 2013

Wenge said:
Bruce Lee is buried in Washington State in the country of his birth The United States of America.

So you don't disagree that he was Chinese-American and that he had dual citizenship and lived most of his life in Hong Kong? Where he made most of his films.

rehabnonono · Jun 15, 2013

Telix said:
The main problem with this is you are comparing apples tp oranges. The poverty rates dont match up at all. In China the poverty figure used in the first table was people living on less than the equivalent of 2 USD a day (ppp), or just a bit over 700 a year. The united states was missing from this table. So then you point to the wiki article that shows people below the poverty line per state. The problem with this, is the definition of poverty "line", which is a number set by local governments. In the US this number is 23000 (ppp).

The best way to look at it. Is simply gdp (ppp) per capita. According to the same cia factbook found through wikipedia (sorry cant link right now, im on my phone) , the US ranked9th at 49k per, Spain ranked 32 at 30k per, Greece ranked 44th at 25k per, China ranked. 96th at 9k per.

There is no real comparison at all.

The problem with your comparison is your presumption that everyone has to pay the same amount of money to survive. The poor in Mississippi have to pay much more than the poor in China to get by.

There is no real comparison at all.

Gkidia · Jun 15, 2013

rehabnonono said:
The problem with your comparison is your presumption that everyone has to pay the same amount of money to survive. The poor in Mississippi have to pay much more than the poor in China to get by.

There is no real comparison at all.

Price power parity is a ......
I know I'm far richer than the average Chinese mainlander... but I don't feel it.

rehabnonono · Jun 15, 2013

wingerman said:
There is still a discontinuous frame between the comparisons of poverty. In China it used to be like it was the Unites States back in the 50's where a nickel could get you an icecream sundae whereas now it should cost about a dollar. This means even with the 2 dollars that some people like in Tibet are living on they are literally able to afford with it some 40 icecream sundaes while the American has to save up 20 times for it. This is why with even with the top cities in the US the Chinese cities far outpace the kind of lifestyle that is to be had in the west. If we want to talk about soft power, let us talk about where your dollar gets you, not how much inflation you have.

Agreed...

Wenge · Jun 15, 2013

rehabnonono said:
So you don't disagree that he was Chinese-American and that he had dual citizenship and lived most of his life in Hong Kong? Where he made most of his films.

I vehemently disagree. Bruce Lee was an American Citizen. Being a citizen of Hong Kong in those days had little meaning. He was a subject of the British Empire.

Larrey · Jun 15, 2013

rehabnonono said:
Europe had more than 300 years to develop Africa... if that was ever their stated aim, they failed miserably. In one decade China has done more for the Africans than any Euro-power did in all those centuries (Except for perhaps Britain in SA).

Just to parse some of the claims in this debate — it certainly is not a fact that the Europeans were in Africa colonising for 300 years. They maintained depots on the fringes. And they did it because venturing inland overwhelmingly led to their deaths, one way or another. The reasons settler colonialism worked in SA was due to special climatic conditions, and THERE the Europeans started moving in about 300 years ago. Eslewhere, they had to stay their hand until the quite interesting history of western tropical medicine had given them enough of an arsenal to try it. It's a major aspect of why the "scramble for Africa" didn't come until it did. The Chinese are also now taking advantage of the advances of tropical medicine.

beeh · Jun 15, 2013

Soft power just means that a lot of people want to be like a particular nation/culture. In this regard how can china be a soft power if its economic advancement is merely to become like the west in fashion, architecture lifestyle etc? Would not such a thing demonstrate that china is under the sway of western soft power?

Even implied soft powers like Japan and South Korea, do their own nations not ape western lifestyles/fashions/music etc thereby making even their own culture not strong enough to halt western soft power?

Can somebody list one thing that modern culture is practicing that is non western or more precisely American?

china can never be a soft power until large groups of people want to be Chinese. Given the demand for western luxury products and American electronics in china I have doubts that this is even true for the Chinese.

Larrey · Jun 15, 2013

beeh said:
china can never be a soft power until large groups of people want to be Chinese. Given the demand for western luxury products and American electronics in china I have doubts that this is even true for the Chinese.

I'd say China already exercises considerable soft power. Currently however what it means is that various autocratic regimes are looking to China for a model for not having to go down that frightening road of liberalisation, civil and political rights, and democratisation, in order to become modern and rich.

If China in the end really delivers this kind of model for managed, autocratic social and economic development, it's going to have some very serious clout, since it promises an undemocratic future to the people and parts of the world that don't want that. If they do REALLY well at this, it means we can wind down western democracy as a failed experiment, we might even be forced to in order to stay competitive.

beeh · Jun 15, 2013

Larrey said:
I'd say China already exercises considerable soft power. Currently however what it means is that various autocratic regimes are looking to China for a model for not having to go down that frightening road of liberalisation, civil and political rights, and democratisation, in order to become modern and rich.

If China in the end really delivers this kind of model for managed, autocratic social and economic development, it's going to have some very serious clout, since it promises an undemocratic future to the people and parts of the world that don't want that. If they do REALLY well at this, it means we can wind down western democracy as a failed experiment, we might even be forced to in order to stay competitive.

I wouldn't really agree with that, china is possible because western democracies want to grow. Who exactly will work so that the Chinese system can grow? Your version of economics also doesn't take into account the physical possession of resources and people. For example while the Chinese have to trade for Australian coal to keep their electric grid , Australian industry has no such problem and if we actually wanted to we could compete quite well with the Chinese while crippling their economy. At the end of the day, it does come down to who works and who merely organises that work.

Larrey · Jun 15, 2013

beeh said:
I wouldn't really agree with that, china is possible because western democracies want to grow. Who exactly will work so that the Chinese system can grow? Your version of economics also doesn't take into account the physical possession of resources and people. For example while the Chinese have to trade for Australian coal to keep their electric grid , Australian industry has no such problem and if we actually wanted to we could compete quite well with the Chinese while crippling their economy. At the end of the day, it does come down to who works and who merely organises that work.

It's not MY version of economics. I just stated one currently intently looked at possible siginificance of the Chinese rise through the ranks of the the wealthy and powerful nations. It IS being looked at as a possible escape from the western style open society, libyeral democracy development — by those that don't like that kind of thing, the anti-democrats of the world.

Last time it was the Soviet system. Well, in one way of looking at China is as an attempt to fix one of the fundamental problems of the Soviet stuff, without having to accept democracy etc.

For a while in the 20th c. it was things like Fascism and Nazism the anti-democratic forces would pin their hopes on.

You don't HAVE to have rights and freedoms or democracry to work or consume after all. The questions is if China has found (unlikely for now) a way to manage this, or if it is on a trajectory to do so (they're at least searching).

China already has soft-power as the best bet in this respect. IF it credibly shows it has "solved" the problem of how to modernise without democracy, it can and will be massively emulated.

beeh · Jun 15, 2013

Larrey said:
It's not MY version of economics. I just stated one currently intently looked at possible siginificance of the Chinese rise through the ranks of the the wealthy and powerful nations. It IS being looked at as a possible escape from the western style open society, libyeral democracy development — by those that don't like that kind of thing, the anti-democrats of the world.

Last time it was the Soviet system. Well, in one way of looking at China is as an attempt to fix one of the fundamental problems of the Soviet stuff, without having to accept democracy etc.

For a while in the 20th c. it was things like Fascism and Nazism the anti-democratic forces would pin their hopes on.

You don't HAVE to have rights and freedoms or democracry to work or consume after all. The questions is if China has found (unlikely for now) a way to manage this, or if it is on a trajectory to do so (they're at least searching).

China already has soft-power as the best bet in this respect. IF it credibly shows it has "solved" the problem of how to modernise without democracy, it can and will be massively emulated.

Larry, how can they show that credibility if their successes are on the sufferance of democracies? Wouldn't that contradict itself, or do you believe the chinese model would have existed without opening its markets on the behest of Nixon?

Larrey · Jun 15, 2013

beeh said:
Larry, how can they show that credibility if their successes are on the sufferance of democracies? Wouldn't that contradict itself, or do you believe the chinese model would have existed without opening its markets on the behest of Nixon?

They build a vibrant modern consumer economy to rival the western ones, and they manage to do so without having to grant western-style civil and political rights, or proper democratic representation.

I'm not saying they have done so. I'm simply stating they are trying. And the experiment is being intently looked at by anti-democrats.

For now they depend on exports. The next stage is to switch to economic growth based on domestic market demand, like the US for most of the 20th c.

IF they succeed, the implications are huge. (We can get rich and powerful doing it the Chinese way, and all the political crap about rights and freedoms we can tell the westerners - patronising pigs that they are - to stuff.)

The only other somewhat similar political experiement I can think of is the Iranian Islamist republic. Except China, if successful at this, would be at least 20 times the size of Iran, and likely offer 20 times the challenge.

rehabnonono · Jun 15, 2013

Gkidia said:
Price power parity is a ......
I know I'm far richer than the average Chinese mainlander... but I don't feel it.

Yes, try buying that Audi or BMW that so many of the middle class here own and see how rich you are. When I look at the prices of cars at home they are almost double and the tax is crippling. Here fuel is cheap, Chinese assembled cars (like the Audi or BMW) are half the price and income tax is 15%. I live in a very middle class apartment block. Yet our car park is full of cars I cannot afford at home. Yet one of our apartments was recently valued at around half a million US dollars... Chinese real estate!

My wife decries the good old days and complains when we pay $12 for a restaurant meal... for two! Including Beer! Take out is $2. This is just a snapshot of what I would think is an average middle class family in a big city today. I drive a cheap SUV ...but without a doubt could drive a S350 Merc if I wanted...(or my wife allowed me). We owe nothing to anybody but if we need money the interest is like nothing.

I'd rather be poor here than in a developed country.

rehabnonono · Jun 15, 2013

Larrey said:
Just to parse some of the claims in this debate — it certainly is not a fact that the Europeans were in Africa colonising for 300 years.

Sure I said colonizing? And who said they were everywhere for all that time? I think I used the word develop. Did they develop any country? I hear that the "Zairean Sickness" brought from Europe was the worst of all and that millions of people died from similar sicknesses all over Africa. Apparently no cure had been available until the Traditional Chinese developmental medicine came to Africa.

rehabnonono · Jun 15, 2013

Gkidia said:
I'm skeptical aboiut that canal, but otherwise China has done quite well.

Now all they need is fascist nationalism.

You really want to hope they don't!

Gkidia · Jun 15, 2013

Larrey said:
They build a vibrant modern consumer economy to rival the western ones, and they manage to do so without having to grant western-style civil and political rights, or proper democratic representation.

I'm not saying they have done so. I'm simply stating they are trying. And the experiment is being intently looked at by anti-democrats.

For now they depend on exports. The next stage is to switch to economic growth based on domestic market demand, like the US for most of the 20th c.

IF they succeed, the implications are huge. (We can get rich and powerful doing it the Chinese way, and all the political crap about rights and freedoms we can tell the westerners - patronising pigs that they are - to stuff.)

The only other somewhat similar political experiement I can think of is the Iranian Islamist republic. Except China, if successful at this, would be at least 20 times the size of Iran, and likely offer 20 times the challenge.

Truth is, democracy isn't necessary to become powerful or innovative. Nazi Germany for example. I'd say the one thing burdening the Chinese is the education system. Much more so than whatever "democracy" they're lacking.

Larrey · Jun 15, 2013

Gkidia said:
Truth is, democracy isn't necessary to become powerful or innovative. Nazi Germany for example. I'd say the one thing burdening the Chinese is the education system. Much more so than whatever "democracy" they're lacking.

Germany was Nazi for all of 12 years, not enough time to impact on that scale.

Larrey · Jun 15, 2013

rehabnonono said:
Sure I said colonizing?

If they don't colonise outright — at least one of the several kinds — they simply would not be in control. I don't see how anyone could hold them responsible for centuries of lack of control du to non-colonisation? If that's the mark, then one could as well take the Chinese to task for failing to help Africa develop? That's one mighty empire punching below its weight up to the 19th c. — if this is really supposed to be an accepted standard of evalution?

I'm really no fan of the European colonial empires, but what is the charge against them here really?

SafavideIrani · Jun 15, 2013

I hope not, i don't like the regime of China, they are supporting Iran and they buy cheap oil from Iran because Iran wants their support, and its not like the people in China have rights compared to European countries like Denmark.

Wenge · Jun 15, 2013

rehabnonono said:
Yes, try buying that Audi or BMW that so many of the middle class here own and see how rich you are. When I look at the prices of cars at home they are almost double and the tax is crippling. Here fuel is cheap, Chinese assembled cars (like the Audi or BMW) are half the price and income tax is 15%. I live in a very middle class apartment block. Yet our car park is full of cars I cannot afford at home. Yet one of our apartments was recently valued at around half a million US dollars... Chinese real estate!

My wife decries the good old days and complains when we pay $12 for a restaurant meal... for two! Including Beer! Take out is $2. This is just a snapshot of what I would think is an average middle class family in a big city today. I drive a cheap SUV ...but without a doubt could drive a S350 Merc if I wanted...(or my wife allowed me). We owe nothing to anybody but if we need money the interest is like nothing.

I'd rather be poor here than in a developed country.

If I were poor in China I think I would kill myself. I don't know what country you are from but it is more affordable to get a car or to be able to buy a home in The United States than it is in China.

Certainly there are many cheap things here but what is the risk you take in eating them? Take out is $2? Where did the oil come from that cooked that meal and do you really know what is in it? You paint a very rosy picture of China but once again I urge you to get out and travel to the Northeast and to the midwestern parts of China.

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