Joined Jul 2012
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East Asian genetic relationships
- Thread starter Mandschure
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Joined Mar 2011
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dragon's area
I am not a scholar, I am a learner.I'm surprised a scholar like yourself didn't know that.
As far i know, the Goguryeo history is controversial.
Joined Jul 2012
109 Posts | 0+
I am not a scholar, I am a learner.
As far i know, the Goguryeo history is controversial.
Sorry, I assumed you were.
Many things are controversial. Hopefully we get over this and get along.
Joined Mar 2011
3,342 Posts | 20+
dragon's area
of course, i only feel confused because i think that Goguryeo is not korean in my opinion.
get along together, don't be influence by me.
Joined Jul 2012
109 Posts | 0+
of course, i only feel confused because i think that Goguryeo is not korean in my opinion.
get along together, don't be influence by me.
I'm not too keen on Gogureyeo...I am much more faimilar with "Silla". I think they would be more proud of that than Goguryeo.
Cheers.
Joined Jun 2011
1,812 Posts | 3+
São Tomé de Meliapore
I am not a scholar, I am a learner.
As far i know, the Goguryeo history is controversial.
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo_controversies"]Goguryeo_controversies[/ame]
Joined Jul 2012
109 Posts | 0+
Joined Mar 2011
3,342 Posts | 20+
dragon's area
Thanks.
but wikipedia is easy to edit.
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1. from my angels, i think that goguryeo is not enough to become korean history completely, of course, i don't deny that there have a lot of korean influence and chinese influence for geographical distance. but how much influence did the two sides have? there have not a result in the problem.
2. koguryo murals that were discovered in koguryo tombs, have a lot of images about fuxi, nvwa, etc, those are the god of han people ancestors, so, korean claimed that koguryo is their ancestors and they are korean, I can't agree it.
Are not korean ancestors samhan?
3. at another hand, koguryeo was destroyed by tang dynasty and silla. then tang dynasty and silla cut and get a part of koguryo, but tang get more lands than silla, koguryo's king family melt into china finally too, why only think that koguryeo completly belong to korea?
4. if talking about korean in manchurian, some korean chinese lived in mordern manchurian, indeed, but they are not koguryeo offspring , on the countrary, they are immigrants in late qing dynasty and before ww2. they are not aborigines, it is known that main population is manchus and jurchens in manchurian after koguryeo destroyed. it is very funny to claim those lands belong to korean and cut mordern china territory.
5. ancient chinese history book mixed up the two name "koguryeo " and "korea", because they have not scientific concept about country and
ethnic in that time, the points were distorted by korean later, and chinese historicians had corrected it, and those ancient history books signed that "koguryeo"surname is gao, and "korea" surname is wang, they have not direct inheritance relationship, sometimes these history book said that wang korea strong just like "koguryeo",but that is only for official polite language, just like qing founder claimed they are late-jin regime, in fact, they have not relate.
finally, i hope you can noticed that i had never claimed that koguryeo blong to china, because in my opinions, the question still is controversial，i will keep the controversian question until historians can give more confirm proof, so I don't surpport any side.
thanks for your link, 1991sudarshan, that lead my interesting now, I will try to do more learning about it.
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Goguryeo, as far as I know, descended from the same Korean kingdom as Shilla and Paekche. This Korean kingdom was Gojoseon.
Goguryeo language is classified as Old Korean by Vovin and Unger. This suggests that Goguryeo linguistic roots are still present in the Korean language today.
Y-DNA haplogroup O2b is very frequently found among North and South Koreans but absent among Han Chinese. This suggests that the Goguryeo people were Y-DNA haplogroup O2b. Words of Goguryeo origin can be found in Middle Korean (early 10th to late 14th century). The Goguryeo spoke a language very similar to Paekche and Shilla, although closer to Paekche.
As you can see, there is no O2b in Han Chinese but a lot of O2b in Northeast Asia including Korean, Manchu and some other Manchurians like Hezhe (Nanai) and Daur. This means Goguryeo and to an extent Jurchens and Manchus have O2b.
Goguryeo language is classified as Old Korean by Vovin and Unger. This suggests that Goguryeo linguistic roots are still present in the Korean language today.
Y-DNA haplogroup O2b is very frequently found among North and South Koreans but absent among Han Chinese. This suggests that the Goguryeo people were Y-DNA haplogroup O2b. Words of Goguryeo origin can be found in Middle Korean (early 10th to late 14th century). The Goguryeo spoke a language very similar to Paekche and Shilla, although closer to Paekche.
As you can see, there is no O2b in Han Chinese but a lot of O2b in Northeast Asia including Korean, Manchu and some other Manchurians like Hezhe (Nanai) and Daur. This means Goguryeo and to an extent Jurchens and Manchus have O2b.
Joined Mar 2011
3,342 Posts | 20+
dragon's area
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In fact, that is my confused question in previous post too.
we know goguryeo range had covered almost manchurian and north korea, but can't arrived at south korea, right?
from Genetics Angle, if we can know these people is move from goguryeo range to Korean peninsula range or not, or it is contrary?
go so far as to O2b， goguryeo had been destroyed very long time, the ethnic group of manchurian people melt into each other very long time too, I think it is normal that many ethnic groups have same O2b.
for example, jurchens had spreaded a lot of in goguryeo range and Korean peninsula
range, so how do we know these O2b is from korean, not from jurchens?
sorry, maybe the question is still superficial, but I really feel confused.
BTW, I searched about goguryeo language, my information (Second-hand material ) signed that the most similar language is ancient japanese. and the language don't viewed as korean, common named as Buyeo language.
from the angel, goguryeo people is most possible as buyeo people, isn't?
(ps: i can't understand a question, why south korean claimed the ownership mostly, the goguryeo range had never included south korean range.)
BTW again,
《old tang book 》 recorded, one officials of tang dynasty, was ordered to goguryeo by tang first emperor, he teach Lao tze to public, king and people all go to listen, above several thousands, so we know that many goguryeo people can listen chinese language too.
same ethnic, same language, still can became different country and nations, can't?
Joined Jun 2011
1,812 Posts | 3+
São Tomé de Meliapore
I have started a thread regarding the Korean language and the historical records written in old Korean. The written records in Korean languages dated back during the Joseon period and the Goryu. I dunno why the scholars of samguk period chose the classical period and discarded their own language . Professor Beckwith claims that language of Goguryo is related with the old Japanese but the scholarly community does not take his work seriously
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo_language]Goguryeo language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
In this wiki article , there is a mention about the Chinese records( which records ? ) that tells the languages of Paekche and Goguryo were similar and there are quite unrelated with the language of tungusic people. Until the Korean and the Chinese people shed their ultra nationalist spirit , the scholars would refrain from researching about the Korean and Chinese histories.
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According to Christopher Beckwith, the Japanese language is derived from the Kaya language, not the Paekche/Koguryoic language.
The Goguryeo (also spelled as Koguryo) language is defined as Old Korean, along with Paekche (also spelled as Baekje) and Shilla (also spelled as Silla). This is the classification by Vovin, Starostin and Unger (modern linguists).
However only Beckwith classifies the Koguryoic/Paekchaen languages together and Shilla as another language.
Most scholars including Vovin, Starostin and Unger say this is wrong. This is because there is not enough evidence of the Koguryoic/Paekchaen languages to suggest that they are part of the hypothetical "Buyeo" languages.
Many Goguryeo words exist in modern Korean today. Going by Beckwith's classifications, by geography alone, about 70% of modern Koreans are genetic descendants of Koguryoic/Paekchaen speaking populations, and only 30% are from Shilla speaking populations.
However it is very doubtful that Koguryoic/Paekchaen was different from Shilla.
Beckwith's new book Empires of the Silk Road: A History of Central Eurasia from the Bronze Age to the Present (Princeton University Press, 2009) claims that the Japanese language is derived from the Kaya language.
This makes sense since the Kaya kingdom was closest to Japan geographically. Geographic distance = genetic distance in this certain case.
The Kaya language shares the most similarities with the Japanese language.
Beckwith earlier claimed that the Japanese language may have come from the Paekche/Koguryoic language but he has changed his views.
Beckwith now claims that the Japanese language came from the Kaya language (Samhan).
Basically to summarize the research of Vovin, Starostin, Unger and Beckwith:
Vovin, Starostin, Unger and Beckwith:
Old Korean languages
Samhan languages
Beckwith alone:
Koguryoic/Paekchaen languages
Shilla languages
Samhan languages
This map is useful when trying to decide where Y-DNA haplogroup O2b originated from. The highest frequencies and diversity values for Y-DNA haplogroup O2b are found in the Korean peninsula. Interestingly, the original O2b* is found in higher frequencies among North Koreans/Koreans in China which suggests that O2b* most likely originated at the northern part of the Korean peninsula before expanding north to Manchuria (and remaining predominantly as O2b*) and also forming the subclade O2b1 in the southern part of the Korean peninsula before expanding to Japan, where the predominant type of O2b is O2b1.
Therefore to summarize
O2b* is found in:
Therefore the likely place of origin of O2b* is either northern Korea or southern Manchuria. This corresponds to the geographic location of Goguryeo.
O2b1 is found in:
Therefore the likely place of origin of O2b1 is southern Korea.
The Goguryeo (also spelled as Koguryo) language is defined as Old Korean, along with Paekche (also spelled as Baekje) and Shilla (also spelled as Silla). This is the classification by Vovin, Starostin and Unger (modern linguists).
However only Beckwith classifies the Koguryoic/Paekchaen languages together and Shilla as another language.
Most scholars including Vovin, Starostin and Unger say this is wrong. This is because there is not enough evidence of the Koguryoic/Paekchaen languages to suggest that they are part of the hypothetical "Buyeo" languages.
Many Goguryeo words exist in modern Korean today. Going by Beckwith's classifications, by geography alone, about 70% of modern Koreans are genetic descendants of Koguryoic/Paekchaen speaking populations, and only 30% are from Shilla speaking populations.
However it is very doubtful that Koguryoic/Paekchaen was different from Shilla.
Beckwith's new book Empires of the Silk Road: A History of Central Eurasia from the Bronze Age to the Present (Princeton University Press, 2009) claims that the Japanese language is derived from the Kaya language.
This makes sense since the Kaya kingdom was closest to Japan geographically. Geographic distance = genetic distance in this certain case.
The Kaya language shares the most similarities with the Japanese language.
Beckwith earlier claimed that the Japanese language may have come from the Paekche/Koguryoic language but he has changed his views.
Beckwith now claims that the Japanese language came from the Kaya language (Samhan).
Basically to summarize the research of Vovin, Starostin, Unger and Beckwith:
Vovin, Starostin, Unger and Beckwith:
Old Korean languages
- Goguryeo
- Paekche
- Shilla
Samhan languages
- Kaya
- Old Japanese
Beckwith alone:
Koguryoic/Paekchaen languages
- Goguryeo
- Paekche
Shilla languages
- Shilla
- Old Korean
Samhan languages
- Kaya
- Old Japanese
This map is useful when trying to decide where Y-DNA haplogroup O2b originated from. The highest frequencies and diversity values for Y-DNA haplogroup O2b are found in the Korean peninsula. Interestingly, the original O2b* is found in higher frequencies among North Koreans/Koreans in China which suggests that O2b* most likely originated at the northern part of the Korean peninsula before expanding north to Manchuria (and remaining predominantly as O2b*) and also forming the subclade O2b1 in the southern part of the Korean peninsula before expanding to Japan, where the predominant type of O2b is O2b1.
Therefore to summarize
O2b* is found in:
- Korean peninsula (especially northern Korean peninsula)
- Manchurians (including Manchus, Hezhe/Nanai and Xibes)
Therefore the likely place of origin of O2b* is either northern Korea or southern Manchuria. This corresponds to the geographic location of Goguryeo.
O2b1 is found in:
- Korean peninsula (especially southern Korean peninsula)
- Japan
Therefore the likely place of origin of O2b1 is southern Korea.
Joined Jun 2011
1,812 Posts | 3+
São Tomé de Meliapore
Are there are any internal genetic division in the Korea population? Any haplogroup found only in the north Korean population.
According to wikipedia , the book of wei and book of han states that language of Goguryo and silla bears little similarity
First he said Japanese (old) is related to the goguryu and now he states this
These are just speculations. There are no other evidence other than Chinese records.
This map is useful when trying to decide where Y-DNA haplogroup O2b originated from. The highest frequencies and diversity values for Y-DNA haplogroup O2b are found in the Korean peninsula. Interestingly, the original O2b* is found in higher frequencies among North Koreans/Koreans in China which suggests that O2b* most likely originated at the northern part of the Korean peninsula before expanding north to Manchuria (and remaining predominantly as O2b*) and also forming the subclade O2b1 in the southern part of the Korean peninsula before expanding to Japan, where the predominant type of O2b is O2b1.
Therefore to summarize
O2b* is found in:
- Korean peninsula (especially northern Korean peninsula)
- Manchurians (including Manchus, Hezhe/Nanai and Xibes)
Therefore the likely place of origin of O2b* is either northern Korea or southern Manchuria. This corresponds to the geographic location of Goguryeo.
O2b1 is found in:
- Korean peninsula (especially southern Korean peninsula)
- Japan
Therefore the likely place of origin of O2b1 is southern Korea.
So they could place Korean in the Tungusic family and Japonic family is family isolate.
Many scholars say that middle korean had tones like the chinese language but two tones only .
Middle Korean had two tone, it can be due to following condition.
1. The Koreans adopted Chinese vocabulary , characters along with tones
2. Korean ( middle) inherited the tones from the old Korean
If the first condition is the real fact , then Korean went for a full throttle sinization .
if the second condition is real , then middle Korean must be grouped with Sino-Tibetian or Vietnamese or Tai-Kadai languages because these languages at tones from 2-9 and we can take that Koreans descended from Chinese ( Via Goguryo)
But we can not related the languages with the genetics and it produces very absurd results
example
The Africans in USA speak English
The North Indians in India speak Indo Aryan language but the recent gentic studies states that the North Indians are no way different from South Indians genetically except for the language .
In our scenario we can tell that
the people of samguk were of Chinese origin but they were ruled by the Emperors who enforced the people to speak their language ( Old Korean )
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I'm not going to discuss with you if you don't provide sources.
The Korean language is in a completely different linguistic family to Chinese.
Korean and Altaic word order: SOV
Chinese, Vietnamese, Tibeto-Burman word order: SVO
The Korean language is in a completely different linguistic family to Chinese.
Korean and Altaic word order: SOV
Chinese, Vietnamese, Tibeto-Burman word order: SVO
Joined Mar 2011
3,342 Posts | 20+
dragon's area
OH, thanks to mandschure and 1991sudarshan.
look like Linguists have disputed about goguryeo language too.
gogruyeo language had disappeared above 1000 years, how did they get sample to compare?
maybe that is the reason why they can't get an result?
I had never read about Beckwith‘s book, maybe I should buy one to read. : )
at another hand, the opinion about goguryeo language have related with paekche language and ancient japanese , that corresponded to the move process of buyeo, and corresponded to the opinion that branch of buyeo found goguryeo and paekche, so it can get surpport too.
if you have free time, would you like introduce some knowledge about O3 and it's origin?
look like Linguists have disputed about goguryeo language too.
gogruyeo language had disappeared above 1000 years, how did they get sample to compare?
maybe that is the reason why they can't get an result?
I had never read about Beckwith‘s book, maybe I should buy one to read. : )
at another hand, the opinion about goguryeo language have related with paekche language and ancient japanese , that corresponded to the move process of buyeo, and corresponded to the opinion that branch of buyeo found goguryeo and paekche, so it can get surpport too.
if you have free time, would you like introduce some knowledge about O3 and it's origin?
The Buyeo language hypothesis is claimed by Christopher Beckwith.
The Buyeo language is the same as the Koguryoic/Paekche language.
The Buyeo language does NOT include Japanese. This is because Beckwith has changed his position and now states that the Japanese language is from the Kaya language (Samhan).
Joined Mar 2011
3,342 Posts | 20+
dragon's area
yeah, I got it, I will read other's book too, just like vovin, starostin.
I want to read beckwith because I want to know his evidences and the reason why he changed his opinion.
of course, buyeo language does not include japanese, accroding the move of buyeo people, koguryeo is collateral branch of buyeo and paekche king family is from buyeo too, so their language will similiar. then paekche language influence ancient japanese, so there have some relate bettween buyeo language, (don't mean they are same, and that is ancient japanese.)
Joined Mar 2012
27 Posts | 0+
Osaka, Japan
Christopher Beckwith is known for throwing out outrageous crackpot theories and no one takes him seriously in the field of linguistics. Rightly so.
If you want to establish hypotheses for languages being related to each other, it has to be done by linguistic means such as the comparative method or internal reconstruction. Genetics and archeology can provide some help and confirmations from time to time, but will never be the backbone of any theory connecting languages.
Japonic is probably not related to any other living language but linguists have had most success in pretending there is a link with Altaic and Austronesian that at least those two can be said to be "hypotheses". Susumu Ono's Dravidian theory is next in line, not because his scholarly work is any good, but at least it is a genuine attempt from a linguistic vantage point.
If you want to establish hypotheses for languages being related to each other, it has to be done by linguistic means such as the comparative method or internal reconstruction. Genetics and archeology can provide some help and confirmations from time to time, but will never be the backbone of any theory connecting languages.
Japonic is probably not related to any other living language but linguists have had most success in pretending there is a link with Altaic and Austronesian that at least those two can be said to be "hypotheses". Susumu Ono's Dravidian theory is next in line, not because his scholarly work is any good, but at least it is a genuine attempt from a linguistic vantage point.
Joined Jul 2012
109 Posts | 0+
Bickering about what now? Seriously?
Chinese is Chinese, Korean is Korean and Japanese is Japanese.
Chinese is Chinese, Korean is Korean and Japanese is Japanese.
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The linguistic scholars you quoted also believe that the Koreanic languages were intrusive in Korea, and that the Korean peninsula was thus populated by groups that were not Korean speaking until the migration of Koreanic speakers from elsewhere, corresponding to the Three Kingdoms era. It is highly illogical that O2b would be the Haplotype of an entire kingdom, and equally ridiculous to arbitrarily designate groups to Northeast Asian, Southeast Asian, etc. when genetic maps show clines, rather than boundaries. The way you talk about these groups, one has the impression that you think they're made up of homogeneous sub-components. That is far from factual.
For a person who said that he does not know a lot about Koreans, you certainly have a very detailed understanding of all the theories surrounding them. I have a feeling you're not letting on half of where you're coming from.
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