Indic rulers of Hurrian speaking Mittani (Southwest Turkey)

tornada · Aug 10, 2014

Vinnie said:
It's as a group. Not a certain one deity, these are typical to the Indian subcontinent that happened to be found somewhere else then South Asia. Mithras was also worshipped in Rome, which is just a one case but not as such.

You're annoying and you cannot convince me, you're not an expert and you don't bring any sources. I thank you very much. You, my friend, are an amateur. Keep reading.

Varuna and Ouranos. Mithras and Mitra, though the roman Mithras originated as an eastern deity AFAIK. Then again there is the Persian Indra. Im sure I am an amateur. But atleast i don't cherry pick sources and make assertions of certainty that are unsupported by the evidence.

World Focker · Aug 10, 2014

tornada said:
You really wanna assert that V is pronounced as B? So you wanna argue that Vasudeva is pronounced as Basudeva? In some cases yes v does become interchanged with B, though i don't think this is in Sanskrit but as a result of local corruption. But not all cases. V and B are bot always interchangeable, Vishnu would be Bishnu.

Oh and so far, the likes of WF and Dream Regent and others have demonstrated a far better grasp of linguistics and phonetics than you, so i wouldn't be so quick to asset my superiority if I were you.

Not corruption, just change over time. Languages evolve. You can actually see the opposite in the shift from ancient Greek to Modern Greek where consonants shift up with regards to their voicing so b becomes v, p(h) becomes f and so on. From what I recall Hindi has generally kept a reasonably conservative consonant system despite lentition and people no longer maintaining aspirated/unaspirated contrast. Whereas Punjabi, Lahnda etc (the North western group) are devoicing so V> B, D > T etc depending on phonological environment.

Vinnie · Aug 10, 2014

World Focker said:
No it's not. V > B is common to North (Western) India due to devoicing some time in the middle Indic period. Punjabi Gobinder vs Hindi Govinda. It's not a case of randomness. Why is it you can speak with such certitude on that which you know nothing?

What is Gobinder it's Gobind, Govind or Govinda. V is often B in sound, most definately. Not always, but often. 100%.

Google Vishnu, which is common, then Google Bishnu. Both is accepted.

Vinnie · Aug 10, 2014

tornada said:
Varuna and Ouranos. Mithras and Mitra, though the roman Mithras originated as an eastern deity AFAIK. Then again there is the Persian Indra. Im sure I am an amateur. But atleast i don't cherry pick sources and make assertions of certainty that are unsupported by the evidence.

Transcription of cuneiform Interpretation [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Sanskrit"]Vedic[/ame] equivalent Comments a-ru-na, ú-ru-wa-na Varuna Varuṇa mi-it-ra Mitra [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitra"]Mitra[/ame]
in-tar, in-da-ra Indra [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra"]Indra[/ame]
na-ša-ti-ya-an-na Nasatya-nna Nāsatya [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrian_language"]Hurrian[/ame] grammatical ending -nna a-ak-ni-iš Āgnis [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni"]Agni[/ame]

World Focker · Aug 10, 2014

Vinnie said:
What is Gobinder it's Gobind, Govind or Govinda. V is often B in sound, most definately. Not always, but often. 100%.

Google Vishnu, which is common, then Google Bishnu. Both is accepted.

Gobinder is a common Punjabi name. If Bishnu is as commonly accepted as Vishnu (and it's not) outside of the western reason it just means that devoicing is becoming more prominent across the Indo-Aryan zone which makes you comments even more hilarious and inept.

tornada · Aug 10, 2014

Vinnie said:
I said oftenly, it is CERTAINLY the case. As your Indian you should know already, you're making a fool out of yourself denying that V is not often pronounced as B. Note, Mahaveer often pronounced as Mahabir. Just one example. Anyway, I have no more time for your random and rather useless posts.

Do you know the meaning of random? Either way, someone already gave a far more appropriately explained argument to the same v-b point. But i can understand that when people contradict and refute your work and you are unable to present an adequate defence you must dismiss their arguments. Random, rofl that's a good one..
Im sorry if I've annoyed you however. If you find contradiction annoying however, maybe this forum isn't the best place for you. A blog with the comments section disabled might be more suitable, then you wouldn't get annoyed at all.

Vinnie · Aug 10, 2014

World Focker said:
Gobinder is a common Punjabi name. If Bishnu is as commonly accepted as Vishnu (and it's not) outside of the western reason it just means that devoicing is becoming more prominent across the Indo-Aryan zone which makes you comments even more hilarious and inept.

Juist google it. It's accepted. So oftenly V is pronounced as B. It's a deep V almost W that becomes B. You don't agree? I don't care.

Vinnie · Aug 10, 2014

tornada said:
Do you know the meaning of random? Either way, someone already gave a far more appropriately explained argument to the same v-b point. But i can understand that when people contradict and refute your work and you are unable to present an adequate defence you must dismiss their arguments. Random, rofl that's a good one..
Im sorry if I've annoyed you however. If you find contradiction annoying however, maybe this forum isn't the best place for you. A blog with the comments section disabled might be more suitable, then you wouldn't get annoyed at all.

Random indeed.

Google Vishnu (common) then Google Bishnu. Both are accepted.

Vinnie · Aug 10, 2014

Chakravarti is often Chakrabarti, or Chakraborty. Most certainly Chakravarti is pronounced as Chakrabarti.

tornada · Aug 10, 2014

World Focker said:
Not corruption, just change over time. Languages evolve. You can actually see the opposite in the shift from ancient Greek to Modern Greek where consonants shift up with regards to their voicing so b becomes v, p(h) becomes f and so on. From what I recall Hindi has generally kept a reasonably conservative consonant system despite lentition and people no longer maintaining aspirated/unaspirated contrast. Whereas Punjabi, Lahnda etc (the North western group) are devoicing so V> B, D > T etc depending on phonological environment.

Poor choice of words perhaps. I meant a movement away from origins. AFAIK, the V-B interchange does not happen in Sanskrit at all, only in the regional languages.

Vinnie · Aug 10, 2014

Varun is sometimes spelled as Barun. Google is your friend.

World Focker · Aug 10, 2014

Vinnie, how does that even make sense? are you actually suggesting that modern usage is a guide to ancient speech? I would pronounce μηνις as /minis/ but an ancient Greek would say /me;nis/ does that mean we can retroactively use pronunciations? are you telling me you know about Sanskrit pronunciation than the ancient grammarians? do you know better than Panini?

tornada · Aug 10, 2014

Vinnie said:
Random indeed.

Google Vishnu (common) then Google Bishnu. Both are accepted.

Just did, got completely different results.

tornada · Aug 10, 2014

Vinnie said:
Chakravarti is often Chakrabarti, or Chakraborty. Most certainly Chakravarti is pronounced as Chakrabarti.

In different languages. They are not interchangeable in Sanskrit, hence the point is meaningless... Random actually

Vinnie · Aug 10, 2014

v/w → b is common in colloquial HU. There are many examples of this, eg vyaapaari → byopari, vinti → binti. Incidentally, there are many examples where Punjabi preserves the original 'v' even in rustic speech whereas HU turns then to 'b'. vasna (P) ↔ basna (HU), vela (P) ↔ bela (HU). In Punjabi, "towns get settled' would be "vastiyaan vas paindiyaan" whereas in HU it would be "bastiyaan bas jaati hain".

Urdu, Hindi, Punjabi: bastii vasdii - V->B shifts - WordReference Forums

I rest my case.

Vinnie · Aug 10, 2014

It is common that v/w becomes b oftenly. And that is just the case here and exaclt what happened when translation the Hurrian Sanskrit texts to English. Nothing more nothing less.

tornada · Aug 10, 2014

Vinnie said:
v/w → b is common in colloquial HU. There are many examples of this, eg vyaapaari → byopari, vinti → binti. Incidentally, there are many examples where Punjabi preserves the original 'v' even in rustic speech whereas HU turns then to 'b'. vasna (P) ↔ basna (HU), vela (P) ↔ bela (HU). In Punjabi, "towns get settled' would be "vastiyaan vas paindiyaan" whereas in HU it would be "bastiyaan bas jaati hain".

Urdu, Hindi, Punjabi: bastii vasdii - V->B shifts - WordReference Forums

I rest my case.

On what? We were discussing Sanskrit here, and this is not seen in Sanskrit. So what are you resting your case on exactly?

tornada · Aug 10, 2014

Vinnie said:
It is common that v/w becomes b oftenly. And that is just the case here and exaclt what happened when translation the Hurrian Sanskrit texts to English. Nothing more nothing less.

Right, and you were there I take it, witnessing this?

Vinnie · Aug 10, 2014

As to the interchange of v and b, in sanskrit.

Sanskrit Grammar/Chapter II - Wikisource, the free online library

Vinnie · Aug 10, 2014

Sanskrit 'a' often becomes 'o', v' becomes 'b'

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